Don't click if you don't want to be 100% Vegetarian

[mrgrowmez]

H3ad,
animals have complex relationships, courting rituals, pair up for life (just like marriage), bond with each other at the end of their day, lizards will die of sorrow from losing their mate. havent you ever seen a dog whining and missing its owner?

the reason the cut the pigs teeth off or the chckens beaks off are for Psychological reasons because the conditions they are in cause stress and they will take it out on themselves and eachother, as would a human put in similar circumstance.

i believe animals follow genetic programs just the same as i believe human beings do, i mean we all do basically the same things eat, shit, piss, mate, grow .

I dont think this way because of disney man, when i was a kid i thought alot of things were true that weren't, things that i probably got from disney but as i got older i realised they weren't. i still havent discovered yet that animals are stupid non thinking things only put here for our consumption......we can learn alot from our furry friends.

 

[genkisan]

H3ad,
animals have complex relationships, courting rituals, pair up for life (just like marriage), bond with each other at the end of their day, lizards will die of sorrow from losing their mate. havent you ever seen a dog whining and missing its owner?

the reason the cut the pigs teeth off or the chckens beaks off are for Psychological reasons because the conditions they are in cause stress and they will take it out on themselves and eachother, as would a human put in similar circumstance.

i believe animals follow genetic programs just the same as i believe human beings do, i mean we all do basically the same things eat, shit, piss, mate, grow .

I dont think this way because of disney man, when i was a kid i thought alot of things were true that weren't, things that i probably got from disney but as i got older i realised they weren't. i still havent discovered yet that animals are stupid non thinking things only put here for our consumption......we can learn alot from our furry friends.

Great post!!!

 

[ItsGrowTime]

Again, the animals we are speaking about were not "put here" in the first place! Every pig, goat, cow and chicken is born and bred into the meat business with the end goal of ending up on the dinner table. Thats it! This is not a case of "natural resources" being depleted or anything similar. Nothing is being snapped up from nature and viciously murdered in these farms. This really is no different than our hobby of growing these plants. We grow them to use them, no other reason. Sure, the animals "feel" more but they otherwise wouldnt be here to feel anything in the first place.

I guess the next response will be something regarding how not existing at all is a better alternative to a stressful existence. I dont know if it is or not because Im not a cow and I dont think I can vouch for what a cow "thinks". No one can be right on this topic, its just a fact.

(PS - to whoever brought up the mascara brush in the rabbit's eye video, you do realize that video has been around for....20?....years? But they keep trotting out the same shock videos to make it like these things still go on, whether they do or not, just to pull at the heartstrings on the ignorant public and get money to further PETA's terrorists goals.)

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

H3ad,
animals have complex relationships, courting rituals, pair up for life (just like marriage), bond with each other at the end of their day, lizards will die of sorrow from losing their mate. havent you ever seen a dog whining and missing its owner?

the reason the cut the pigs teeth off or the chckens beaks off are for Psychological reasons because the conditions they are in cause stress and they will take it out on themselves and eachother, as would a human put in similar circumstance.

i believe animals follow genetic programs just the same as i believe human beings do, i mean we all do basically the same things eat, shit, piss, mate, grow .

I dont think this way because of disney man, when i was a kid i thought alot of things were true that weren't, things that i probably got from disney but as i got older i realised they weren't. i still havent discovered yet that animals are stupid non thinking things only put here for our consumption......we can learn alot from our furry friends.

Of course I agree with some of what you say here...

It is undeniable that there is something about human sentience which seperates us from the lower animals...

Sure there is some level of individuality to the animal's genetic programs... but even the dog's seeming love for it's human is an instinctive response...

Sure there are things we learn from the animals, and sure it is easy to superimpose human thought and emotion on an animals instinctive behaviors... but animals are not self aware, or able to consider their right as violated, or even to concieve of the Idea that they should have rights...

Pair bonding, Mating rituals, and all the like are easily explained within the context of evolution and instinct...

It reminds me of a portion of one of the chapters in one of the biologist Richard Dawkins, where he details the human tendency to assigh human qualities to thingh which do not have them... Can't remember which book right now, but it was a very excellent explanation of the position from which you approach this issue...

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I have a dog, btw...
I love my dog even...
My dog appears to love me... but it's really just dependence and instinctual pack behavior...


Ever seen a dog turn on someone?
Instinctual behavior as well, not a thought out plan for sure...

And of course, universally, Animals percieved as more intelligent are rarely raised for food...

I have pets and love them... I've raised food and eaten it...

Eating animals is not a morality issue...

 

[Nikijad4210]

Hunt, kill and cook my own food?

I could, and have, and will again...

Indeed, albeit I live in FL & "hunting" for my family was really just weekend fishing, there's still nothing more satisfying than bringing home fresh meat for dinner

 

[marx2k]

Again, the animals we are speaking about were not "put here" in the first place! Every pig, goat, cow and chicken is born and bred into the meat business with the end goal of ending up on the dinner table. Thats it! This is not a case of "natural resources" being depleted or anything similar. Nothing is being snapped up from nature and viciously murdered in these farms. This really is no different than our hobby of growing these plants. We grow them to use them, no other reason. Sure, the animals "feel" more but they otherwise wouldnt be here to feel anything in the first place.

I probably wouldn't feel so cavalier about chopping down a marijuana plant if it screamed when I did it.

If we follow your logic, slaves during the slave trade that were bred for that specific reason were not human, but resources. Same thing can be said about any humans deprived of their free will by force. That sets a bad precedent.

I guess the next response will be something regarding how not existing at all is a better alternative to a stressful existence. I dont know if it is or not because Im not a cow and I dont think I can vouch for what a cow "thinks". No one can be right on this topic, its just a fact.

Well, one person is right either way.

Existence is pain according to some very enlightened individuals. But even if I can't be sure that a cow does think, the awful alternative is if the opposing argument is wrong. Wouldnt the winning move be NOT to put these poor bitches through torture just in case I *AM* right?

(PS - to whoever brought up the mascara brush in the rabbit's eye video, you do realize that video has been around for....20?....years? But they keep trotting out the same shock videos to make it like these things still go on, whether they do or not, just to pull at the heartstrings on the ignorant public and get money to further PETA's terrorists goals.)

You don't think suffering of animals go on in the lab? The local research university here has been fined numerous times in the last few years for just leaving sick animals in their cages while hosing down the cages with scalding water to sanitize the cage, thereby killing the animals. Thats one recent example of intentional carelessness in the research labs. I won't start listing the long list of other atrocities that happen daily in those labs, but the list goes on...and on...and on...and on for very questionable reasons. Many people around the country are beginning to question if animal testing is even necessary with the technology currently available to us. And these are not people working for PETA. They are local taxpayers, federal taxpayers and private donators that all go to fund Universities doing this research.

 

[marx2k]

Grat3fulh3ad wrote...

Sure there is some level of individuality to the animal's genetic programs... but even the dog's seeming love for it's human is an instinctive response...

And our love for humans or animals is what?

Sure there are things we learn from the animals, and sure it is easy to superimpose human thought and emotion on an animals instinctive behaviors... but animals are not self aware, or able to consider their right as violated, or even to concieve of the Idea that they should have rights...

"rights" are a human invention. I assure you that people who live outside of modern civilization also have a very loose definition of "rights"

Pair bonding, Mating rituals, and all the like are easily explained within the context of evolution and instinct...

So...are you talking about animals or humans here?

It reminds me of a portion of one of the chapters in one of the biologist Richard Dawkins, where he details the human tendency to assigh human qualities to thingh which do not have them... Can't remember which book right now, but it was a very excellent explanation of the position from which you approach this issue...

Projection... I think you mentioned this already.

And of course, universally, Animals percieved as more intelligent are rarely raised for food...

Depends on how many Yen you'd like to give up for that dog souffle.

Eating animals is not a morality issue...

No, the morality issue is the way they are raised before they are eaten.

 

[mrgrowmez]

No, the morality issue is the way they are raised before they are eaten.

Yeah i agree with this statement completely, i have no problem with eating meat etc i just cant get comfortable with the way animals are raised before they are eaten.

If only we could find some ground inbetween for everyone!

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Exactly what I've said... The morality issue is the way they're treated, by the farms that use those practices... Doesn't have anything to do with meat eating, or meat eaters... the ones with the morality problems are the farmers who do cruel things for the sake of cruelty...

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Grat3fulh3ad wrote...


And our love for humans or animals is what?

well... since we're sentient beings... our love is... love...
Love is a decision to value another more than you value yourself... Do you really mean to suggest that animals have this capicity? If so then I'll just say 'disney'

"rights" are a human invention. I assure you that people who live outside of modern civilization also have a very loose definition of "rights"

Rights are a human perception, because anmals don't have the intellegence to concieve of the idea... just because human rights are violated across the world, does not mean that the perception of rights does not exist...

So...are you talking about animals or humans here?

Animals, obviously... since the statement doesn't apply to humans...

Projection... I think you mentioned this already.

and you still don't get it... you still seem to think animals are 'furry people'...I'll find the quote from the biologist later... maybe it'll help your understanding of how things really work...

Depends on how many Yen you'd like to give up for that dog souffle.

no... it just shows that culturally orientals don't view dogs as sentient... And it's the yuan in china... not the yen... You know alot of japanese dog eaters?

[/QUOTE]

 

[geedub]

gotta chow meat.. its only natural as i am an omnivore

 

[asa42]

like how this thread went from a 2 sided arguement (if you dont agree with me/ us then you must be one of them mentality) to more of a compromise of beliefs. seems hard not to agree that there are some aweful practices done on many farms (& lately in factories... peanut butter & pet food) which account for the quality of food to be consumed. the knowledge of where our food comes allows for an informed decision... all great, but one concept has only been hinted at.

cont in 2nd post...

 

[asa42]

seems to me w/ all the food that gets thrown out daily at grocery stores every where that something should be done to prevent such a waste. maybe that food should help feed the hungry (as a few are now doing) or maybe less food should be produced (concentrate on smaller but more healthy farms of both types). just a couple ideas...

 

[marx2k]

well... since we're sentient beings... our love is... love...
Love is a decision to value another more than you value yourself... Do you really mean to suggest that animals have this capicity? If so then I'll just say 'disney'

We can get into a discussion how some animals will gladly put themselves in mortal danger to save the ones they love (a mother protecting her young, a pet protecting its' master, etc) What you define human love as may just be another animal instinct, just somewhat more abstracted by the human mind.

Rights are a human perception, because anmals don't have the intellegence to concieve of the idea... just because human rights are violated across the world, does not mean that the perception of rights does not exist...

So, we agree then...

Animals, obviously... since the statement doesn't apply to humans...

Humans very obviously have mating rituals and ideas of pairing groups exactly like animals. If you'd like, I can throw a lengthy list of similarities between human and animal mating rituals and pair bonding behavior. The similarities go down to the biological level.

and you still don't get it... you still seem to think animals are 'furry people'...I'll find the quote from the biologist later... maybe it'll help your understanding of how things really work...

You're mistaken. I'm not projecting human personality onto animals. I'm simply making an argument for animal rights. Just because they're not human and can't do calculus doesn't mean they're walking meatbags without the ability to feel pain and complex emotions.

no... it just shows that culturally orientals don't view dogs as sentient...

Orientals actually do keep dogs for pets. Americans keep rabbits and pigs for indoor pets (as well as other farm animals). It doesn't stop them from eating them.

 

[genkisan]

Exactly what I've said... The morality issue is the way they're treated, by the farms that use those practices... Doesn't have anything to do with meat eating, or meat eaters... the ones with the morality problems are the farmers who do cruel things for the sake of cruelty...

The ones who create the demand for cheap meat by whatever means possible are just as beset with moral problems as the farmers, who do not practice cruelty for it's own sake.....they practice it for profit.

All the appalingly cruel and immoral factory farming methods are deemed "necessary" because of the 'economic' reasons involved.....which is bullshit.


If meat eaters bought with their conscience, demanded meat that was not raised in malignant, immoral and unnatural ways and lowered their meat intake by a bit, there would be much less of an issue.


I have way more to post on this thread, as I find the callous, short-sighted, uncompassionate and totally humanocentric viewpoints presented here by some to be appalling and offensive (esp coming from stoners), and have much to say on the subject.

Now however, I have to go into my garden and build my composter, and sow some lettuce......


But I'll just say this, in reposnse to a quote:

Eating animals is not a morality issue...

BULLSHIT!!!!

EVERYTHING you do is a morality issue....morality is not something that one turns on and off at one's convinience....morality is a all-encompassing thing that guides every single action one does.......if it does not, it ain't worth a sack of dead ferrets.

 

[mcrob44]

Thats why my mommy used to buy a side of organic beef from a local farmer, have a butcher make it into a whole bunch of different delicous cuts and we'd keep it in the deep freeze and work our way though.

It's strage... my objections are more with the industrial farming of all sorts. Don't even get me started on the evils of the corporations like monsanto... even the vegtables are becoming evil. A smarter thing than becomming vegitarian is supporting local economies.

 

[THCzr]

Fuck peta.

THC

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Great... Believe whatever you like then... I'll go on eating with no moral issues whatsoever, and anyone who don't like it... Well anyone who don't like it can express their opinion for me to ignore... If you can't tell the difference between people and animals, you've got deeper issues than I can work out ...

 

[killa-bud]

yea,that sucks

so,they say dont eat meat,how does that help? its doesnt,it makes it worse,more people feel less gulity about eating aniamals,so its out of there mind, but what about the people who could give two fucks about a cow,they dont care ether way,now theres no one careing about the aniamls,so instead of pushing for people to become vegans and shit,they should tell people to boycott "factory farms" and eat organic farm raised aniamals.