Don't click if you don't want to be 100% Vegetarian

[genkisan]

Great... Believe whatever you like then... I'll go on eating with no moral issues whatsoever, and anyone who don't like it... Well anyone who don't like it can express their opinion for me to ignore... If you can't tell the difference between people and animals, you've got deeper issues than I can work out ...

Amazing that when folks have no intelligent response to something they find uncomfortable, they just shut their eyes, ears and minds and say "I am ignoring you".


If you can't see that morality is not a selective, occasional thing but something that applies to everything and guides your every action, your issues are way deeper and way more troublesome than anything to do with the difference between animals and people.

Since kindness, compassion and consideration for other living things have no place in your humanocentric, exploitative paradigm, let's look at it from the human point of view:

How can participating in a food production method (factory farming) that causes vast, irrepairable damage to our only home (Planet Earth) be moral in any way? Or does your selfish, exploitative philosophy not inculde the right of future generations of humans to a healthy life and planet?

Care to answer that one?


And as far as this one goes:

Again, the animals we are speaking about were not "put here" in the first place! Every pig, goat, cow and chicken is born and bred into the meat business with the end goal of ending up on the dinner table. Thats it! This is not a case of "natural resources" being depleted or anything similar. Nothing is being snapped up from nature and viciously murdered in these farms. This really is no different than our hobby of growing these plants. We grow them to use them, no other reason. Sure, the animals "feel" more but they otherwise wouldnt be here to feel anything in the first place.

Before the Emancipation, slavers bred slaves as well as taking them from Africa....did that make it more acceptable?

Just because something is bred to be exploited, tortured, abused and murdered does not make it any more moral or acceptable.

 

[cavalleysmoker]

Saw the PETA endorsement and was turned off automatically... I love animals, but PETA is a fucked up organization. A lot of these guys have their heads up their asses, I remember reading a story about PETA behavior awhile back that pissed me off so much... Wasn't even regarding animals specifically, lemme look for it...

Well didnt find the article in question but here's a few facts I found on Google

- PETA supports breed specific legislation as well as the wholesale killing of all bull breeds.
- PETA wants to stop the ownership of all pet animals.
- They believe ALL forms of human/animal coexistence should be banned.
- PETA has killed over 10,000 dogs and cats at its Norfolk, Virginia headquarters.
- PETA killed over 85% of the animals it took in during 2003, in which they said they would be adopting out.

And Genkisan, its great to see logical, well thought out posts every once in awhile... I am not a vegetarian... but you definately make some good points to ponder in your last post. I think I' gonna look into this a bit more...

stoned regards, cvs

 

[ItsGrowTime]

Before the Emancipation, slavers bred slaves as well as taking them from Africa....did that make it more acceptable?

Just because something is bred to be exploited, tortured, abused and murdered does not make it any more moral or acceptable.

<rantmode>
Jesus christ on a pogo stick! When are we going to STOP COMPARING ANIMALS TO HUMANS in this discussion?!?! So far in this thread Ive seen comparisons to slavery, women's rights, the Holocaust, and numerous genocides (Im probably missing some others) over the years being compared to the meat business. Gimme a break. Thats no different than the garbage PETA, HSUS, API, ALF, and many other *animal rights* orgs like to spew to further their agenda.

Its impossible to debate the issue when past atrocities with little to no connection to the subject matter keep being brought up as comparisons for the sole intention of pulling at heart strings to make a point. I think those of you that are so dead set against the meat business should just flat out admit that you think a cow and a person are equal beings on this planet and leave it at that. Once that is admitted and known then the rest of the debate becomes pointless because you really do see the slaughter of millions of Jews in the same light as a steak factory serving up T-bones for sunday dinner.

For the record, I do not feel a cow and a human are equals in this world. If so, we would go bowling with cows or be grazing in a field alongside them enjoying cow-like behaviors and them enjoying human-like behaviors. They serve a different purpose on the planet than we do and the stronger species will always take advantage of the weaker species. Thats how this whole thing nature thing works right? If anything is to blame, it is our lack of population control that has put so many people on this planet that we are FORCED to engage in mass meat factory practices to ensure that humans have enough food to live on without everyone raping nature to survive. But then anti-hunting groups (hmm, probably the same ones I mentioned above too)complain when someone goes and shoots a deer to feed his family for months, instead of buying that T-bone. Can't win for losin.

</rantmode>

 

[genkisan]

Saw the PETA endorsement and was turned off automatically... I love animals, but PETA is a fucked up organization. A lot of these guys have their heads up their asses, I remember reading a story about PETA behavior awhile back that pissed me off so much... Wasn't even regarding animals specifically, lemme look for it...

Well didnt find the article in question but here's a few facts I found on Google



And Genkisan, its great to see logical, well thought out posts every once in awhile... I am not a vegetarian... but you definately make some good points to ponder in your last post. I think I' gonna look into this a bit more...

stoned regards, cvs

I very much agree with you PETA, like all fanatics, are a dangerous bunch or unreasonable wingnuts.

That does not make the issue of morality, diet, environment and personal responsibility thru lifestyle choices any less vital.

In fact, it is the single most vital issue facing humanity today....can we make moral choices in regards to desperately needed lifestyle changes (and we are not just talking meat eating here...) that will ensure our children will have an inhabitable environment?

If we cannot find the maturity and wisdom to make those very moral of choices, we doom our childern to life on a planet increasing less livable, and our species to extinction.....

All because we can't drop the selfish, exploitative, egotistical paradigm of patriarchal control thru resource-hoarding that has been the norm since mono-culture farming and the advent of cities.

We need to grow the fuck up as a spieces and learn to wipe our own collective asses......and right fucking quick.

It would be kinda pathetic for us to drive ourselves into extinction because we are too stubborn, selfish and stupid to actually mature a bit and be responsible for ourselves, the impacts of our actions and the future of our children's world, dontcha think??

 

[genkisan]

<rantmode>
Jesus christ on a pogo stick! When are we going to STOP COMPARING ANIMALS TO HUMANS in this discussion?!?! So far in this thread Ive seen comparisons to slavery, women's rights, the Holocaust, and numerous genocides (Im probably missing some others) over the years being compared to the meat business. Gimme a break. Thats no different than the garbage PETA, HSUS, API, ALF, and many other *animal rights* orgs like to spew to further their agenda.

Its impossible to debate the issue when past atrocities with little to no connection to the subject matter keep being brought up as comparisons for the sole intention of pulling at heart strings to make a point. I think those of you that are so dead set against the meat business should just flat out admit that you think a cow and a person are equal beings on this planet and leave it at that. Once that is admitted and known then the rest of the debate becomes pointless because you really do see the slaughter of millions of Jews in the same light as a steak factory serving up T-bones for sunday dinner.

For the record, I do not feel a cow and a human are equals in this world. If so, we would go bowling with cows or be grazing in a field alongside them enjoying cow-like behaviors and them enjoying human-like behaviors. They serve a different purpose on the planet than we do and the stronger species will always take advantage of the weaker species. Thats how this whole thing nature thing works right? If anything is to blame, it is our lack of population control that has put so many people on this planet that we are FORCED to engage in mass meat factory practices to ensure that humans have enough food to live on without everyone raping nature to survive. But then anti-hunting groups (hmm, probably the same ones I mentioned above too)complain when someone goes and shoots a deer to feed his family for months, instead of buying that T-bone. Can't win for losin.

</rantmode>

Animals feel pain, animals care for their young, animals suffer physical and mental anguish....this is fact.

And for any compassionate person, that should be enough.

But if it is not, then think on what I posted earlier......if that kinda of exploitation and abuse of animals can be justified, the only step need to justify treating hmans that way is to somehow equate them with animals. This was done by the Nazis, the Hutu, the Turks, the slavers of Europe, and countless others....and continues to be done today....

And as far as people being FORCED to factory farm, that's a crock of shit......if people simply ate less meat (not give it up, just cut down) by half, the immediate benfits to the environment would be enormous...but folks are too gluttonous to do that..."G-d Forbid I should have to give up anything" is the usual reaction of most people. They say the same thing about their Hummers, their ATV's, their rider-lawnmowers, their fur coats, their $250 million stock options, etc etc etc.

That's the selfish, shortsighted malignant immaturity I was refering to......

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Amazing that when folks have no intelligent response to something they find uncomfortable, they just shut their eyes, ears and minds and say "I am ignoring you".

Funny when Ignorance and Fancy seem to prevail over fact and reality... When All the intelligent responses in the world won't snap people out of their disney mentality... When that which you wish would make me uncomfortable, fails to, Despite the Fact that My eyes, Ears and Mind are wide Open... And I choose to Ignore your continued diatribe... You try to make my position petty...

You all want to feel morally superior, but you're not... just confused about the differences between People and lower life forms...

 

[marx2k]

Jesus christ on a pogo stick! When are we going to STOP COMPARING ANIMALS TO HUMANS in this discussion?!?! So far in this thread Ive seen comparisons to slavery, women's rights, the Holocaust, and numerous genocides (Im probably missing some others) over the years being compared to the meat business. Gimme a break. Thats no different than the garbage PETA, HSUS, API, ALF, and many other *animal rights* orgs like to spew to further their agenda.

We don't have to compare animals to people. We can compare life. Does your life equal more in the grand scheme of things than a cows? Why? Because youre a person and a cow is not? What makes you, as a person, sp special and your life worth more than a cows? In some countries, your life is worth far less than a cow's. Life is life and it's sad that some people don't see it that way. Don't value your own life over another just because you're not the same species.

Its impossible to debate the issue when past atrocities with little to no connection to the subject matter keep being brought up as comparisons for the sole intention of pulling at heart strings to make a point. I think those of you that are so dead set against the meat business should just flat out admit that you think a cow and a person are equal beings on this planet and leave it at that.

I'll agree with that. We are all equal beings. Just as I wouldn't want to pointlessly cause you harm and torture, I don't wish that harm/torture on another lifeform either. Do you feel that that's bad in some way?

Once that is admitted and known then the rest of the debate becomes pointless because you really do see the slaughter of millions of Jews in the same light as a steak factory serving up T-bones for sunday dinner.

For cows, it's a holocaust every day. Saw that on a bumper sticker. But do you feel that it is that different? If so, tell me why. And let's keep in mind that you're talking to someone who values all life without prioritizing one life over another.

For the record, I do not feel a cow and a human are equals in this world. If so, we would go bowling with cows or be grazing in a field alongside them enjoying cow-like behaviors and them enjoying human-like behaviors.

You're correct. A cow is not a human and a human is not a cow.

They serve a different purpose on the planet than we do and the stronger species will always take advantage of the weaker species. Thats how this whole thing nature thing works right?

What purpose do you feel a cow serves? What purpose do you feel that you serve? Do we have a purpose or is the purpose of life to live it? You can surely kill a bear with a gun, does that make you stronger than a bear? Do you think you could take out a cow with your bare hands?

If anything is to blame, it is our lack of population control that has put so many people on this planet that we are FORCED to engage in mass meat factory practices to ensure that humans have enough food to live on without everyone raping nature to survive.

People are not forced to eat meat. People are not forced to buy meat from factory farms. People do not need meat to survive. We may have at one point, but not anymore.

But then anti-hunting groups (hmm, probably the same ones I mentioned above too)complain when someone goes and shoots a deer to feed his family for months, instead of buying that T-bone. Can't win for losin.

I don't mind hunters that use every bit of their kill. Animals hunt, we hunt, it's part of life. Doing it with scope rifles versus knives, bows, arrows, etc just makes one more of a pussy (in my eyes), but cest la vie, no? Sport and canned hunting is pretty ridiculous as well.

 

[marx2k]

Funny when Ignorance and Fancy seem to prevail over fact and reality... When All the intelligent responses in the world won't snap people out of their disney mentality... When that which you wish would make me uncomfortable, fails to, Despite the Fact that My eyes, Ears and Mind are wide Open... And I choose to Ignore your continued diatribe... You try to make my position petty...

You all want to feel morally superior, but you're not... just confused about the differences between People and lower life forms...

Your intelligent responses don't veer from maintaining dominance over all life on this planet and therefore have zero problem with their treatment, no matter what it is. I would say that is considering oneself morally superior.

If compassion for other life forms is a 'Disney mentality', then that's cool with me. Myself and most Buddhists live in Disneyworld, I suppose.

There's no confusion between differences between life forms. I am a human being, a cow is a cow. That doesn't make it cool to make it suffer.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

We don't have to compare animals to people. We can compare life. Does your life equal more in the grand scheme of things than a cows? Why? Because youre a person and a cow is not? What makes you, as a person, sp special and your life worth more than a cows? In some countries, your life is worth far less than a cow's. Life is life and it's sad that some people don't see it that way. Don't value your own life over another just because you're not the same species.

That's some of the craziest thinking I've ever read... You really do think animals and people are equal don't you?

Hell yeah my life is more valuable than a cow... Why? Look at the maximum potential impact of one cow on the world... Now look at the Maximum potential impact of one human being (Ghandi for example)... Can you see the difference YET?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Your intelligent responses don't veer from maintaining dominance over all life on this planet and therefore have zero problem with their treatment, no matter what it is. I would say that is considering oneself morally superior.

If compassion for other life forms is a 'Disney mentality', then that's cool with me. Myself and most Buddhists live in Disneyworld, I suppose.

There's no confusion between differences between life forms. I am a human being, a cow is a cow. That doesn't make it cool to make it suffer.

You put words in my mouth, Mister...
I never said I have zero problem no matter what the treatment is... You need to learn to read, then hit the filter button by my name, and actually read my post, before you go telling LIES like that one...

You might just be no smarter than a cow...

 

[genkisan]

Your intelligent responses don't veer from maintaining dominance over all life on this planet and therefore have zero problem with their treatment, no matter what it is. I would say that is considering oneself morally superior.

If compassion for other life forms is a 'Disney mentality', then that's cool with me. Myself and most Buddhists live in Disneyworld, I suppose.

There's no confusion between differences between life forms. I am a human being, a cow is a cow. That doesn't make it cool to make it suffer.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to marx2k again.

 

[marx2k]

That's some of the craziest thinking I've ever read... You really do think animals and people are equal don't you?

Keeping life on equal footing with life isn't really a crazy idea, nor is it even strange. It's an idea that's been practiced as long as man has been around. It's about respect for life, which you do not exhibit (unless that life is instilled in one species only)

Hell yeah my life is more valuable than a cow... Why? Look at the maximum potential impact of one cow on the world... Now look at the Maximum potential impact of one human being (Ghandi for example)... Can you see the difference YET?

And that's why you feel your life is more valuable? Do you think that this planet really cares how things are, politically? That's not an impact on the world, that's an impact on other people. I would say I'm not the one with some crazy ideas here. BTW, Ghandi was a strict vegetarian.

 

[marx2k]

You put words in my mouth, Mister...
I never said I have zero problem no matter what the treatment is... You need to learn to read, then hit the filter button by my name, and actually read my post, before you go telling LIES like that one...

You might just be no smarter than a cow...

There's no need for insults. We can keep this discussion above that.

Yes, you mentioned at some point that you think there's something wrong with factory farming. However, that doesn't jive with the rest of your posts. If you don't care for and don't wish to be a steward for life other than humans, why would you care how that life is treated, or in this case, mistreated.

And if you DO care, why are you even arguing any of this?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Keeping life on equal footing with life isn't really a crazy idea, nor is it even strange. It's an idea that's been practiced as long as man has been around. It's about respect for life, which you do not exhibit (unless that life is instilled in one species only)

Eating Animals has been Practiced as long as man has been around too, And I do exhibit respect for life, just not in a way that suits you... So what... I don't have to suit you...

And that's why you feel your life is more valuable? Do you think that this planet really cares how things are, politically? That's not an impact on the world, that's an impact on other people. I would say I'm not the one with some crazy ideas here. BTW, Ghandi was a strict vegetarian.

The Planet Cares?? LMFAO... Now you think the Planet is a person too... This just gets funnier and funnier... I know Ghandi was a vegitarian... DUH... What in the hell does that have to do with my point? One human can change the world... 10,000 cows couldn't...

If you won't see, then You won't see...

I used to be a vegitarian... I used to think like some of you... I've learned better, though... I'm done now... And yes I'll Ignore your Ignorance and Fancy from here on out... My point is well made, no need for farther discussion...

 

[marx2k]

Eating Animals has been Practiced as long as man has been around too, And I do exhibit respect for life, just not in a way that suits you... So what... I don't have to suit you...

Yep, if you read a few posts previous, I mention I have no problems with hunting as long as it's done for purpose and not needlessly. (food vs. sport)

The Planet Cares?? LMFAO... Now you think the Planet is a person too... This just gets funnier and funnier...

Planet as single living organism. Gaia theory.

I know Ghandi was a vegitarian... DUH... What in the hell does that have to do with my point? One human can change the world... 10,000 cows couldn't...

Changing political thought doesn't change the world. It changes thought among people in a place in time. The world will be here before and after people.

If you won't see, then You won't see...

I used to be a vegitarian... I used to think like some of you... I've learned better, though... I'm done now... And yes I'll Ignore your Ignorance and Fancy from here on out... My point is well made, no need for farther discussion...

That works.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

There's no need for insults. We can keep this discussion above that.

Yes, you mentioned at some point that you think there's something wrong with factory farming. However, that doesn't jive with the rest of your posts. If you don't care for and don't wish to be a steward for life other than humans, why would you care how that life is treated, or in this case, mistreated.

And if you DO care, why are you even arguing any of this?

I argue from the moderate middle of the road stance... Neither Extreme is right... Eating animals is not bad and cruelty for cruelty's sake is always wrong...

However, If the situation arises where I have to choose my life over an animal's... No contest, I'd choose mine.

If you'd think about it and be honest, you'd not sacrifice yourself to save a cow would you? Would you sacrifice yourself to save 10 cows? 100? 1000?

Would you sacrifice your life to save a person? 10 people? your family?

Now do you see a difference?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

You mean to say that Ghandi didn't change the world?

How about Buddha?

Jesus Christ?

 

[genkisan]

I used to be a vegitarian... I used to think like some of you... I've learned better, though... I'm done now... And yes I'll Ignore your Ignorance and Fancy from here on out... My point is well made, no need for farther discussion...

Yes, your point has been well made indeed....said point being that you think having opposable thmbs and a fancy larynx makes humans holy somehow, and that absolves us of any morality or responsibility for anything but our own species...and not even that, in the long term.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Yes, your point has been well made indeed....said point being that you think having opposable thmbs and a fancy larynx makes humans holy somehow, and that absolves us of any morality or responsibility for anything but our own species...and not even that, in the long term.

That's not what I've said and you know it...

My argument was never based on physiology...

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Everytime one of you try to give a summary of my statements, you prove that you've not been paying attention, by missing it so badly...