Don't click if you don't want to be 100% Vegetarian

[marx2k]

I thought you were ignoring...

Grat3fulh3ad writes...

If you'd think about it and be honest, you'd not sacrifice yourself to save a cow would you? Would you sacrifice yourself to save 10 cows? 100? 1000?

Would you sacrifice your life to save a person? 10 people? your family?

I actually wouldn't sacrifice my own life for any other living thing as my will to live is strong. Would I sacrifice a cow over a person? No. Would I sacrifice a person over a cow? No. It's simply not a choice I am able to make.

<ridiculous situation>
If someone put a gun to my head and said either I die or 10,000 cows, I'd choose 10,000 cows. However, that would be the same choice if you replace cows with people.
</ridiculous situation>

You mean to say that Ghandi didn't change the world?

No, he changed political thought. The world remains the same.

How about Buddha?

Buddha was not a person but a state of being or enlightenment for any one person who has "awakened" and reached Nirvana. It may not change the world, but gives the user a different perception of it.

Jesus Christ?

No, he formed a religion that subsequently went on to be the cause of much despair among people and through constant permutation and interpretation has also caused us to rape our lands of their resources because some people believe that instead of being proper stewards for the land and everything on it, it'a all for us to use to our content, without much respect for its' condition in the end.

You should stick to your previous statement and continue ignoring me on this thread (of course, we may agree in other threads

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Well... If you alter what I mean, when you respond... you'll always be right...

World changing does not mean affecting the physical material the planet is composed of...

You wouldn't kill a cow to save your mother?

I guess that's one big difference between us... There are people I'd die for...
I'd even die for people I didn't know if there were enough of them...

And, by the same token... I'd kill just about any number of animals to save a person...

 

[genkisan]

That's not what I've said and you know it...

My argument was never based on physiology...

Then what is it based on, pray tell?


Humans are nothing more than clever monkeys with a complex larnyx, opposable thumbs and the communication/tool-using that results from same.

To believe otherwise is egotistical and delusional in the extreme, and leads directly to the brink of extinction upon which our speices teeters.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Then what is it based on, pray tell?

The same thing that would compell you to save a human life over an animal one.... I like to call it morality... Something humans are capable of, but animals are not...

If a cow had opposable thumbs, and a fancier larynx... It would still be a dumb ass cow...

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

So... You're gonna try to turn this into a theist versus atheist argument?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

If Marx2k or Genkisan Saw a stampeding herd of cattle on course to run thru a crowd of pic-nicking women and children... And had access to enough firepower to kill the herd and save the women and children... Well... Let's just say It wouldnt be a good day to be a woman or child, eh?

 

[genkisan]

If Marx2k or Genkisan Saw a stampeding herd of cattle on course to run thru a crowd of pic-nicking women and children... And had access to enough firepower to kill the herd and save the women and children... Well... Let's just say It wouldnt be a good day to be a woman or child, eh?

Bullshit....it's not about "saving" anything.....

It is about making compassionate, responsible and unselfish choices in one's lifestyle.

You keep giving the example of saving an animal VS saving a human as an equivalent to the point I am trying to make.on to ....that is NOT the issue.


Besides, I wouldn't have thundering herds of cattle around to endanger the wimmen folk and chilern......
The issue is a malignant, destructive and cruel food production system that is ruining our only home, causes untold suffering for billions of living things, and produces unhealthy, hormone and pesticide ridden food to boot.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Bullshit....it's not about "saving" anything.....

It is about making compassionate, responsible and unselfish choices in one's lifestyle.

You keep giving the example of saving an animal VS saving a human as an equivalent to the point I am trying to make.on to ....that is NOT the issue.


Besides, I wouldn't have thundering herds of cattle around to endanger the wimmen folk and chilern......
The issue is a malignant, destructive and cruel food production system that is ruining our only home, causes untold suffering for billions of living things, and produces unhealthy, hormone and pesticide ridden food to boot.

You're right
That was bullshit, like some of the statements you've made about me...

The relevance of my point is this... You guys said all life was equal, My example, that you say is NOT the issue, Shows that all life is not equal.

I've been to farm's and packing houses that bear no resemblance to the PITA bullshit, And for you to imply that all or even the majority of the farms are like that is PURE PROPAGANDA... I do think that you genuinely believe the propaganda, and that your heart is in the right place... I also think that You have NO leg to stand on when you try to say that mine is not...

 

[ItsGrowTime]

And as far as people being FORCED to factory farm, that's a crock of shit......if people simply ate less meat (not give it up, just cut down) by half, the immediate benfits to the environment would be enormous...but folks are too gluttonous to do that..."G-d Forbid I should have to give up anything" is the usual reaction of most people. They say the same thing about their Hummers, their ATV's, their rider-lawnmowers, their fur coats, their $250 million stock options, etc etc etc.

That's the selfish, shortsighted malignant immaturity I was refering to......

More comparisons I see. But this time its ATVs and Hummers instead of gas chambers.

Why should people give up anything they dont want to? We have earned the title of "king of the mountain" and to the victor go the spoils right? You are free to go off into the woods and live on bugs and berries if you want but most don't want to because we LIKE our steaks. I like mine medium-well.

Im sure the animals do feel pain and stress. I do too. Its part of the process of life and death on this planet whether its by natural causes *or* manipulation of resources that we put here in the first place. Plus its a 100% replenishable/renewable resource! How often can we say that about anything?! Little is wasted in the process and people are happily fed around the world. It seems the disconnect is some of us are ok with being superior to these animals (reminding again that the animals in question are CREATED by us in the first place) and using them for our own purposes while others feel the animals are on equal ground as us regardless of their origin. I dont think either position is "right", but the ranting and propoganda that goes on in the name of the anti-meat movement is no different (or better) than that of the Nazis.

If you want to make a point, convince people logically, and make change please find a better spokesman than PETA! Otherwise the anti-meat people (this includes not just vegetarians but also people trying to change the slaughterhouse businesses) will continue to look like fringe nutcases.

 

[marx2k]

Why should people give up anything they dont want to? We have earned the title of "king of the mountain" and to the victor go the spoils right?

We are "king of the mountain" by subduing and setting ourselves apart from nature so much that we have come to depend on everyone else to get what we need and have come to see nature as nothing but a 'resource' that is put here for human (over)consumption. That's great.

You are free to go off into the woods and live on bugs and berries if you want but most don't want to because we LIKE our steaks. I like mine medium-well.

Do you think that anyone that doesn't eat meat lives in the woods and subsists off of berries and bugs? Do you find the height of human civilization to be a colorectal cancer causing steak on the dinner plate?

Im sure the animals do feel pain and stress. I do too. Its part of the process of life and death on this planet whether its by natural causes *or* manipulation of resources that we put here in the first place. Plus its a 100% replenishable/renewable resource!

Still very sad that you see other life forms as nothing BUT a resource.

How often can we say that about anything?!

Well, we've said that about trees, air and water and yet somehow, we have spoled the well for all of those...

Also...

“Livestock are one of the most significant contributors to today’s most serious environmental problems,” senior UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) official Henning Steinfeld said. “Urgent action is required to remedy the situation.”

Cattle-rearing is also a major source of land and water degradation, according to the FAO report, Livestock’s Long Shadow–Environmental Issues and Options, of which Mr. Steinfeld is the senior author.

“The environmental costs per unit of livestock production must be cut by one half, just to avoid the level of damage worsening beyond its present level,” it warns.

When emissions from land use and land use change are included, the livestock sector accounts for 9 per cent of CO2 deriving from human-related activities, but produces a much larger share of even more harmful greenhouse gases. It generates 65 per cent of human-related nitrous oxide, which has 296 times the Global Warming Potential (GWP) of CO2. Most of this comes from manure.

And it accounts for respectively 37 per cent of all human-induced methane (23 times as warming as CO2), which is largely produced by the digestive system of ruminants, and 64 per cent of ammonia, which contributes significantly to acid rain.

( http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=20772&Cr=global&Cr1=warming )
Just sayin...

Little is wasted in the process and people are happily fed around the world.

If only that were the case.

It seems the disconnect is some of us are ok with being superior to these animals (reminding again that the animals in question are CREATED by us in the first place)....

When's the last time you created a cow? Last I heard, cows come from other cows who love and want to protect their young.

... and using them for our own purposes while others feel the animals are on equal ground as us regardless of their origin. I dont think either position is "right", but the ranting and propoganda that goes on in the name of the anti-meat movement is no different (or better) than that of the Nazis.

What are you talking about?

If you want to make a point, convince people logically, and make change please find a better spokesman than PETA! Otherwise the anti-meat people (this includes not just vegetarians but also people trying to change the slaughterhouse businesses) will continue to look like fringe nutcases.

As implied earlier in your reply, you really can't convince people who dont want to hear it of anything. Especially people who don't see other life forms as anything but walking meat bags. People love their meat and really don't give a fuck who it hurts, even themselves. If I told you that eating meat not only raises your risk of heart disease, colon cancer and other ailments but also hurts other people globally, would you stop eating it? Same with SUV's and other symbols of societal gluttony.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Marx... Animal farm was political commentary on the shortcomings of communism... Animals can't really do all that stuff they did in the book...

 

[cavalleysmoker]

That does not make the issue of morality, diet, environment and personal responsibility thru lifestyle choices any less vital.

In fact, it is the single most vital issue facing humanity today....can we make moral choices in regards to desperately needed lifestyle changes (and we are not just talking meat eating here...) that will ensure our children will have an inhabitable environment?

Respect brother... I coudln't agree more. Seems like I find myself discussing these issues with my buddies frequently.. Personal responsibility through better choice, and morality, seem to be the exception rather than the rule around here.

What humans have done to the environment, another sad story. In the short amount of time (relatively speaking...thousands of years vs billions of years), humans have inhabited the earth... we have already caused irreversible environmental damage to the planet... And I dont see the damage slowing significantly in the near future.. man this shits kinda depressing. Im gonna go grab a beer.

stoned regards, cvs

 

[Yummybud]

just made some really good marinated Steak.

The factory farm effects humans as well, the meat is less healthy with all the hormones and chemicals being pumped in the animals.

In my province there was another Mad Cow discovery and they don't talk about it much in the news obviously fear that people will stop buying beef and they'll lose millions of dollars.

now I won't be suprised if in 10 years there will be a lot of people dying from Mad Cow in Canada. The disease stays dormant for around 10 years before killing the person.

mad cow is usually caused by the farmers feeding animal products, I've heard other diseased and dead cows ground up and fed to the cows and this causes the illness so it is preventable.

 

[marx2k]

Even though there are people pleading the USDA to test more livestock and to allow private farmers to test livestock. The USDA is slow in testing livestock themselves and refuse to allow private farmers to test their own livestock for mad cow.

Quote from http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0420/p02s01-woam.html

This week's news about a case of mad cow disease in Canada, the eighth confirmed incident in North America, has led to calls for a ban on imports of Canadian cattle and a permanent ban on sick or injured cattle ("downer" cows) being allowed to enter the human food chain.

It also raises questions about the US Department of Agriculture's testing and tracking procedures, as well as its controversial prohibition on private testing. Creekstone Farms of Campbellsburg, Ky., wants to privately test all its cattle so it can market its beef in countries that currently refuse to accept US beef. Having been blocked from doing so by the USDA, Creekstone Farms filed suit over the issue last month. The USDA argues that under current law it has the sole authority to issue the test kits for mad cow disease. [...]

[...] Since the first US case of mad cow was discovered in 2003, the number of cattle tested for the disease has increased substantially. Still, the rate of inspection remains far lower than in Europe or Japan - about 1 percent of the 35 million cows slaughtered annually in the United States.

1 percent of US livestock being tested. Makes you feel damn safe to be an American beef eater.

 

[Gantz]

BUMP


Did anyone give up meat completely after this???

 

[I Used To Grow]

hell no

hell no

EAT MY MEAT.

 

[Guest]

^^ and I thought lover boy was on break.

 

[vinevamp]

regarding cows or other animals over people, for me, it depends on the people. For example I'd save a cow or just about any other animal over most politicians.

 

[Humanure]

if only things were backwards..