Do bubbles give o2 to the roots or just kill pathogens?

[NOYB]

I'm going to have to bow out of this discussion.
I have a high tolerance for stupid, but not this high.

CB

LOL...now you get it.

It would seem safer and more cost effective to find another way to add dissolved oxygen.

Safety is not a big deal just take basic precautions regardless of % concentration. Only person I've ever seen/chatted with who was using H2O2 and taking measurements regarding it's application is Tom Hill. He's the one that opened my eyes to the ORP thing for soil stuff. DO in hydro is even easier to measure/understand. It's most important in something like DWC and less so in flood/drain.

Nothing wrong with using H2O2 but not necessary if you have an adequate setup but it does have applications.

 

[lysol]

I have proved to myself the roots do need water to breathe in hydro. As counter intuitive as that sounds it makes sense if youre following this thread. I lowered the water levels and experienced symtoms exactly like overwatering. I kept lowering it little by little trying to figure it out, the leafs were "holding" themselves curled down, instead of being flimsy like when they dont get water, so obviously my plants were getting plenty of water yet since not enough of the roots were actually touching the water, the oxygen was being limited. The roots were not breathing thru the air like an orchid root.

With this discovery, I am thinking there is no point to lowering the water level as the plant grows???

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I'm going to have to bow out of this discussion.
I have a high tolerance for stupid, but not this high.

CB

Rude fuck.

 

[lysol]

http://www.thepondreport.com/disc-diffusers.shtml

No you don't...you only think you do! The idea of scrounging through the tool shed for some pits of PVC pipe or hose and some metal jugs or gathering buckets and attempting to fasten a sealed skin from some recycled EPDM membranew might sound like a good idea but it isn't. Sure you can take some SCH 40 pipe and drill some holes in it and cap of the end and epoxy glue a 3/4" NPT air supply connector and make some contraption that will release bubbles but that doesn't mean you will have an efficient diffuser. The best difuser is one that uses the available airflow and horsepower to maximum efficiency but breaking up the air into bubbles...but not all Bubbles are created equal. I know...it sounds discriminatory but it's the Truth! In most cases you want to have small bubbles and the smaller the better. Ultra-fine bubbles or micro-bubbles as they are sometimes called in the industry are what creates the most efficient aeration.

Much of the actual oxygen transfer in to your pond or lake actually occurs at the atmosphere/water interface where water is introduced to the atmosphere by being pushed towards the surface by the rising bloom of bubbles. As the water breaks the surface tension of the pond or lake the oxygen transfer occurs and the water, now with higher levels of vital oxygen, descends back in to the depths where it causes dissolved O2 levels to be higher and higher depending on temperature and baromteric pressure among other variables. But that doesn't mean you can just drop an open ended length poly irrigation pipe running in to the pond from the end of a tire pump and expect these basketball sized bubbles to create enough lift to properly aerate...no...it's not that simple because the bubble size also plays an important role in the Gallons Per Minute lifted towards the surface and the important oxygen transfer that occurs betwwen the thin walls of the bubbles themselves as they stream upwards from the diffuser towards the surface. Yes it is a multi-faceted process and while it may be sounding too complex there is a simple rule that applies to most pond diffusers...

Smaller bubbles are better bubbles
Let's have a brief lesson in fine bubbles, it will be fun (well...not exactly) and you will get a short course in why smaller is sometimes better especially when it comes to diffuser bubbles!

Lesson 1
Let's take a fairly large bubble as far as aeration goes. Our large galloping bubble that is 0.8" in diameter, just over 3/4 of an inch, or 20 mm has a full volume of 1.64 cubic inches or 4.19 cubic centimeters. This same glorious orb has a surface area of 5 inches or 12.6 square centimeters and that is what we can define as a coarse bubble!

Lesson 2
Now a coarse diffuser like an airstone would create large bubbles like in lesson one but if we could use the same volume of air but break that large sphere into smaller ones we could greatly increase the available surface area which in turn enhances and embellishes the aeration transfer capacity of the same air volume! If we replaced that one large 3/4" wide bubble with tiny bubbles or micro-bubbles that were 1/16 of an inch or 3 mm in diameter we could fit 296 of these fine bubbles into the larger one of lesson 1! The combined surface area of those 296 bubbles works out to over 33 square inches or 84 square centimetres! This is close to 7 times the total surface area...and the surface is where the oxygen transfer occurs.

Lesson 3
Now since the surface area is close to 7 times greater we can theroretically aerate 7 times as much water with the same compressor or blower or air pump depending on whether we have a fine bubble diffuser or a coarse bubbler. Same air pump, totally different efficiency!!

But at a certain point I bet it just comes down to your water temperature. All the air in the world wont negate that there is a maximum saturation at certain temperatures, if you dont have enough aeration the plant would not thrive, I think its more black and white, either you are aerating it or you are not, and past that it depends more on temperature I bet, but hey what do I know, just a hypothesis. I can tell you what though before I spent $150 per diffuser I'd buy a damn chiller, heh

 

[stink.whistler]

Rude fuck.

Says the guy who said (in this very thread)

Hey NOYB, glad to see you and your ass. Has it gained any knowledge, or is it still dumb?

You really have no self awareness whatsoever, do you - junior.

At any rate, adding Hydrogen Peroxide does raise oxygen levels in both soil and hydro grows. It is not good to use in a biological organic grow (since the O atom is just as likely to latch onto a friendly critter and kill it as it is likely to find another O atom to glob onto to make O2).

For hydro I'd still go with an airstone running continuously, to avoid having one more thing to dump in my rez, but when your rez runs at high temps, H202 starts making more sense.

I've read to use a max of 3ml per liter of 3% H2O2 per rez change, then replace 25% of that per day. Personally, I'd rather keep my rez cool and bubbling, and not screw around w/ H2O2, but to each his own.

I know I'm repeating some stuff already said in this thread - but just my

 

[NOYB]

It is not good to use in a biological organic grow (since the O atom is just as likely to latch onto a friendly critter and kill it as it is likely to find another O atom to glob onto to make O2).

For hydro I'd still go with an airstone running continuously, to avoid having one more thing to dump in my rez, but when your rez runs at high temps, H202 starts making more sense.

Tom Hill is the only person I've ever run across that was scientifically using H2O2 for his soil grows. Basically what happens is when you water or fertigate O2 levels drop at the onset then rise as the soil/medium dries. If you PROPERLY use H2O2 when you water/fertigate you have a high level of O2 in the root zone immediately after and as the medium dries and the H2O2 reacts out O2 levels maintain. Using H2O2 in a biological organic grow is just fine...just look at Tom's grows.

Airstones restrict airflow for starters and bigger bubbles are better at raising DO (open lines). When your res temps run high for sure H2O2 helps.

 

[stink.whistler]

Airstones restrict airflow for starters and bigger bubbles are better at raising DO (open lines). When your res temps run high for sure H2O2 helps.

Folks debate it, there are unquestionably positives to running open lines (less restriction = more air and potentially longer pump life), but airstones are handy for keeping the line submerged.

Either will work, and there is almost no difference one way or the other in the real world.

 

[lysol]

I am under the assumption it does depend on the amount of circulation, how much water from the bottom of the rez is moved to the top of the rez, etc... you could test this when you add your nutes just watch how fast it spreads out, with an air stone you will see it mixes up faster because the surface area of the bubbles move the water around much faster. Thats why if you pour your water in from another bucket it mixes almost instantly, hence it seems like a waterfall in the rez would be more efficient then any air pump setup

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Either will work, and there is almost no difference one way or the other in the real world.

I find it funny how you make a statement but have no way of backing it up.
I am certain you have never checked the difference between using an open line and a stone, you simply throw your opinion out there as if...
What happens in the "real world" is probably far from what happens in "your world".
And I would expect you to show up...as they have played the song "send in the clowns". It's a "birds of a feather" thing with you creeps.

 

[stink.whistler]

I am certain you have never checked the difference between using an open line and a stone, you simply throw your opinion out there as if...

As with many of the things you are 'certain' of, you are wrong.

And I would expect you to show up...as they have played the song "send in the clowns". It's a "birds of a feather" thing with you creeps.

Now that's just rude, hoosie. You need to learn some manners, son.

 

[rrog]

Lyson,

I hope you'll pardon me for not reading the whole thread from the beginning, but I read your post regarding O2 absorption by the roots and water levels. You maintain that a cannabis root won't absorb atmospheric O2 (like an orchid). That seems perfectly reasonable.

However at some point a dry root can be moistened and become a moist root, then further wet to become a dripping wet root, then finally a fully submerged root in water.

I have always thought that a root in a very wet, humid but not submerged environment would absorb O2. Is this your opinion as well?

Thanks.

 

[lysol]

Yeah, I think MJ only utilizes liquid water, orchids actually can drink from humidity / condensation I think... Im not sure.

 

[rrog]

I guess that's my quandary. Condensation on a root = liquid. Extreme warm humidity is what aeroponics is all about. So it would seem to me that if the roots are wet, they're getting O2.