S
secondtry
Great, thanks. I too would like to know what the recently published viewpoint is...
Would you mind providing a link to where that quote came from? Thanks.
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Development and Harvest Yields of Greenhouse Tomatoes in Six Orgnaic Growing Systems
Great, thanks. I too would like to know what the recently published viewpoint is...
Would you mind providing a link to where that quote came from? Thanks.
C
Carl Carlson
I emailed Matt Taylor again with those questions you had, and here is his reply:
Hi XXX,
I am not sure about ammonium not lowering pH with organic production. If the soil has large about of organic matter, it likely has a large amount of buffering capacity. It is possible that the pH is buffered over a period of time, but eventually if ammoniacal fertilizers are continually applied, pH should decrease. In addition to uptake ammonium by the plant, nitrification of ammonium by soil microbes is also acidifying process.
As for testing pH, I am a fan of the pour-thru developed at NCSU. It is simple, fast and reliable. This method also prevents the removal of substrate from the pot. With larger pots or field soil this method is not possible. In this case, our lab uses a saturated past. In greenhouse settings I would say the pour-thru or saturated paste is used 99 % of the time. There are also direct stick meters but they have been shown to be unreliable.
I have never heard of drying a sample to test pH, since pH is the activity of H+ in water. You would have to rehydrate the sample to do the test.
Matt
With regards to the study how Organic sources of N increase PH, I think it has less to do with increasing PH, but more that the ph is higher when compared to Synthetic sources of Ammoniacal N.
With the organic sources of N, microbes break it down into Ammonia/NH3. Ammonia binds with Hydrogen Ions from the soil to form Ammoniacal Nitrogen. Now we have actually increased PH at this point.
From there:
A.) Its absorbed by the roots releasing a Hydrogen Ion.
B.) Converted into Nitrate Nitrogen releasing two Hydrogen Ions.
From what I know plants uptake Nitrate Nitrogen more easily than Ammoniacal Nitrogen, so there is likely to be more Hydrogen Ions released from Nitrification than from the actual uptake of AN.
Now when Nitrate Nitrogen is absorbed by the roots, they either: Absorb H+ at the same time, or they release bases such as OH-, or HC03. If it release OH, we end up getting H2O when it binds with H+, or we end up getting H20 and CO2 if it releases HCO3 from binding with H+. All of which increase the PH of the soil. But after all of these things have occured, were still ending up with a result that decreases PH because of the two H ions released from Nitrification.
Now lets look at Ammoniacal Nitrogen from syntethic ferts.
Since there is no ammonia/NH3 to begin with, were right off the bat not increasing soil PH by using up a H Ion.
We still get:
A.) H ions released from uptake by roots.
B.) Two H ions released from nitrification.
Were already 3 H Ions in the hole at this point.
When Nitrate Nitrogen is uptaken by roots, we get to eliminate a H Ion, but were still left with a PH that has decreased, but it is more acidic than the Organic ferts due to Ammonia + H-->Ammoniacal Nitrogen.
Haha. I just read that paragraph in the study again. And at the end of it, it states, this were the case, then organic substances could be less acidifying than inorganic substances with
equivalent reduced N. That pretty much sums up what I just typed out above.
Hi XXX,
I am not sure about ammonium not lowering pH with organic production. If the soil has large about of organic matter, it likely has a large amount of buffering capacity. It is possible that the pH is buffered over a period of time, but eventually if ammoniacal fertilizers are continually applied, pH should decrease. In addition to uptake ammonium by the plant, nitrification of ammonium by soil microbes is also acidifying process.
As for testing pH, I am a fan of the pour-thru developed at NCSU. It is simple, fast and reliable. This method also prevents the removal of substrate from the pot. With larger pots or field soil this method is not possible. In this case, our lab uses a saturated past. In greenhouse settings I would say the pour-thru or saturated paste is used 99 % of the time. There are also direct stick meters but they have been shown to be unreliable.
I have never heard of drying a sample to test pH, since pH is the activity of H+ in water. You would have to rehydrate the sample to do the test.
Matt
With regards to the study how Organic sources of N increase PH, I think it has less to do with increasing PH, but more that the ph is higher when compared to Synthetic sources of Ammoniacal N.
With the organic sources of N, microbes break it down into Ammonia/NH3. Ammonia binds with Hydrogen Ions from the soil to form Ammoniacal Nitrogen. Now we have actually increased PH at this point.
From there:
A.) Its absorbed by the roots releasing a Hydrogen Ion.
B.) Converted into Nitrate Nitrogen releasing two Hydrogen Ions.
From what I know plants uptake Nitrate Nitrogen more easily than Ammoniacal Nitrogen, so there is likely to be more Hydrogen Ions released from Nitrification than from the actual uptake of AN.
Now when Nitrate Nitrogen is absorbed by the roots, they either: Absorb H+ at the same time, or they release bases such as OH-, or HC03. If it release OH, we end up getting H2O when it binds with H+, or we end up getting H20 and CO2 if it releases HCO3 from binding with H+. All of which increase the PH of the soil. But after all of these things have occured, were still ending up with a result that decreases PH because of the two H ions released from Nitrification.
Now lets look at Ammoniacal Nitrogen from syntethic ferts.
Since there is no ammonia/NH3 to begin with, were right off the bat not increasing soil PH by using up a H Ion.
We still get:
A.) H ions released from uptake by roots.
B.) Two H ions released from nitrification.
Were already 3 H Ions in the hole at this point.
When Nitrate Nitrogen is uptaken by roots, we get to eliminate a H Ion, but were still left with a PH that has decreased, but it is more acidic than the Organic ferts due to Ammonia + H-->Ammoniacal Nitrogen.
Haha. I just read that paragraph in the study again. And at the end of it, it states, this were the case, then organic substances could be less acidifying than inorganic substances with
equivalent reduced N. That pretty much sums up what I just typed out above.
Nice work Dave. Can't give you a char supplier sorry, unless you want to ship it from New Zealand...
If you're talking real bulk, there will be plenty of funded folks experimenting and looking for a market in the US right now. Find the yahoo biochar group and chat them up, they'll help.
If you're talking real bulk, there will be plenty of funded folks experimenting and looking for a market in the US right now. Find the yahoo biochar group and chat them up, they'll help.
Damn, not interested in long shipping or bulk. Ive checked out Vee-go Bio-Char from Ebay, but it has a npk of 7-3-7. Is it common for biochar to be that "rich"?
Is it common? No, it's not.
But char has a downside in that it will drain nutrients from the soil (as it loads up with organisms) and so enriching the char before addition to the soil has become a common practise. I do it, it's good stuff. Char would have been enriched with humanure and other wastes in it's origins I'm sure.
Of course you can cheat and char something like chicken litter. Then it's already enriched, apparently. With amounts as spoken about in this thread the nutrient drain would barely be an issue. I like 5% or more char in my mixes.
The issue I have with buying char is not so much if it's pre-loaded, but it's origin and processing. Char made at higher temperatures is typically basic in nature and though this will eventually rectify itself it can take a few years from what I've read. Char pyrolised at lower temps is associated with more acidic functional groups at the char/soil interface.
In trying to follow what 2nd is up to, this char (the char you are considering) is likely unsuitable, but let's hear from 2nd himself.
But char has a downside in that it will drain nutrients from the soil (as it loads up with organisms) and so enriching the char before addition to the soil has become a common practise. I do it, it's good stuff. Char would have been enriched with humanure and other wastes in it's origins I'm sure.
Of course you can cheat and char something like chicken litter. Then it's already enriched, apparently. With amounts as spoken about in this thread the nutrient drain would barely be an issue. I like 5% or more char in my mixes.
The issue I have with buying char is not so much if it's pre-loaded, but it's origin and processing. Char made at higher temperatures is typically basic in nature and though this will eventually rectify itself it can take a few years from what I've read. Char pyrolised at lower temps is associated with more acidic functional groups at the char/soil interface.
In trying to follow what 2nd is up to, this char (the char you are considering) is likely unsuitable, but let's hear from 2nd himself.
I sent an email to Matt again regarding my previous post and this is his reply:
No problem XXX. It is nice to hear that you are thinking of my time when asking these questions. I am actually really busy right this week but I am a plant nutritionist by training and really enjoy these types of conversations. So feel free to let the questions fire. I may not answer them immediately, but I will get to them eventually.
Once you start getting into the chemistry of what happens when you apply an organic fertilizer it can get extremely dynamic and complicated. I have never heard of pH increasing because N consumes H when organic compounds breaks down into NH4. Well….I may have in a class one time but I am not recalling it at this moment. The chemistry here seems very likely, I just cannot confirm. One book that might help is Environmental Chemistry of Soil by McBride, a very thorough book.
So again, feel free to ask questions.
Matt
My email to him:
Thanks for the reply Matt. I think I figured out exactly what was going on with regards to Organic sources of N, and PH now thanks to your help.
I dont believe the organic sources of N actually decrease PH, more-so they just have less of an acidifying affect on the soil than synthetic sources of Ammoniacal Nitrogen. When organic sources of N are broken down into Ammonia, they blind with a Hydrogen Ion from the soil, and that results in an affect that increases the PH. From there on out though, its down hill from absorption by roots and nitrification. Let me know if I got it correct
I hope you dont mind me bugging you with all this. Its hard to find smart people on forums some of the time. Ive actually got one more thing Id like to throw at you, but only if you say its okay.
Thanks again.
I wouldn't mind getting my hand on that book, but by first glances a used copy is $315 on Amazon! Yikes.
Another thing that may lead to organic ferts not being as acidic as synthetic ammoniacal nitrogen is that organic sources of N only release 25%-60% of their available N, so that would definitely lead to a "higher ph" when compared to synthetic ferts. I dont know how accurate those release numbers are though. I read that on one site, but I need to do some more digging around to see if its true or not.
Mrfista, this is pulled from the bio-char listing:
VEE-GO BIOCHAR XTRA is produced by a proprietary pyrolysis reaction within a vacuum at temperatures in the lower range typical of industrial pyrolysis reactions. We use only agricultural biomass feedstocks - never industrial or municipal wastes.
Does that sound any better, or still unsuitable?
Another candidate I see often on gardenwebforum is people using Cowboy Charcoal and breaking it up, but its made at high temperatures.
No problem XXX. It is nice to hear that you are thinking of my time when asking these questions. I am actually really busy right this week but I am a plant nutritionist by training and really enjoy these types of conversations. So feel free to let the questions fire. I may not answer them immediately, but I will get to them eventually.
Once you start getting into the chemistry of what happens when you apply an organic fertilizer it can get extremely dynamic and complicated. I have never heard of pH increasing because N consumes H when organic compounds breaks down into NH4. Well….I may have in a class one time but I am not recalling it at this moment. The chemistry here seems very likely, I just cannot confirm. One book that might help is Environmental Chemistry of Soil by McBride, a very thorough book.
So again, feel free to ask questions.
Matt
My email to him:
Thanks for the reply Matt. I think I figured out exactly what was going on with regards to Organic sources of N, and PH now thanks to your help.
I dont believe the organic sources of N actually decrease PH, more-so they just have less of an acidifying affect on the soil than synthetic sources of Ammoniacal Nitrogen. When organic sources of N are broken down into Ammonia, they blind with a Hydrogen Ion from the soil, and that results in an affect that increases the PH. From there on out though, its down hill from absorption by roots and nitrification. Let me know if I got it correct
I hope you dont mind me bugging you with all this
. Its hard to find smart people on forums some of the time. Ive actually got one more thing Id like to throw at you, but only if you say its okay.Thanks again.
I wouldn't mind getting my hand on that book, but by first glances a used copy is $315 on Amazon! Yikes.
Another thing that may lead to organic ferts not being as acidic as synthetic ammoniacal nitrogen is that organic sources of N only release 25%-60% of their available N, so that would definitely lead to a "higher ph" when compared to synthetic ferts. I dont know how accurate those release numbers are though. I read that on one site, but I need to do some more digging around to see if its true or not.
Mrfista, this is pulled from the bio-char listing:
VEE-GO BIOCHAR XTRA is produced by a proprietary pyrolysis reaction within a vacuum at temperatures in the lower range typical of industrial pyrolysis reactions. We use only agricultural biomass feedstocks - never industrial or municipal wastes.
Does that sound any better, or still unsuitable?
Another candidate I see often on gardenwebforum is people using Cowboy Charcoal and breaking it up, but its made at high temperatures.
Secondtry, does your vermont source of Zeolite sell in small bags? Like ten pounds. The smallest size I have found for horticulture is Zeopro(10 lbs), but it has a synthetic fert already added to it. The synth fert would only make up .5% of the total mixture if I use ZeoPro at 5%.
OK. That bio char is soil gold if they're not talking themselves up. See what the other (char group) members have to say about the product, any reviews yet, trials?
However, if I know 2nd try just a little, he's on top of all that I've spoken of, and his rice hulls are pre-treated, and have something going on that he gets excited about.
I get excited about bio-char, period. It's not the whole save the planet thing, though I'm leaning in favour of the concept, it answers a lot of smaller questions too:
What can I do with all my poo?
What can I do with all these prunings?
How do I grow more veggies for less input?
What can I do with this crappy clay?
I think this product sounds in line with what you want, but still want 2nd's opinion. He's a bit specific...
However, if I know 2nd try just a little, he's on top of all that I've spoken of, and his rice hulls are pre-treated, and have something going on that he gets excited about.
I get excited about bio-char, period. It's not the whole save the planet thing, though I'm leaning in favour of the concept, it answers a lot of smaller questions too:
What can I do with all my poo?
What can I do with all these prunings?
How do I grow more veggies for less input?
What can I do with this crappy clay?
I think this product sounds in line with what you want, but still want 2nd's opinion. He's a bit specific...
Can I ask you Dave, and you 2nd, for advice on how you can consume so much information? Do you speed read? Does that even work?
I use mind mapping, am strong linguistically, and use kinesthetic reinforcement for exams (walk with cue cards, jump about and shout shit out), but, I review, and...
Still lose lots of it. Not exam day, but later.
Any hot tips to be a better learner would be greatly appreciated.
While I got some freaks in the house...
I use mind mapping, am strong linguistically, and use kinesthetic reinforcement for exams (walk with cue cards, jump about and shout shit out), but, I review, and...
Still lose lots of it. Not exam day, but later.
Any hot tips to be a better learner would be greatly appreciated.
While I got some freaks in the house...
S
secondtry
Hey Dave,
Thanks for that good post, please see my comments below.
That is counter to what the study found IIRC, I need to re-read it. The researchers did add 15% EWC to the organic soilless mixes which were pretty devoid of OM before that so Matt may have a very good point. The form of N the researchers where discussing was ammonium (e.g., from EJ) which is same ion (AFAIK) as found in synthetic ammoniacal fertilizers Matt wrote about.
----------------------------------
I can see your point about organic sequestered N, however there is a fraction of the "Total N" in organic matter (e.g., bat guano or compost) that is in ionic form without attached carbon; ie., bio-available ammonium and nitrate that plant can use right away. I might be missing something but why would ammonium cation (without attached carbon) from organics like EJ or guano (i.e., microbial bio-fertilizer) be different than the same ammonium cation from a factory?
Maybe this is not what the researchers were referring to in the paper. I am going to re-read that section of the paper, maybe I am mixed up as to what the researchers are claiming.
Unless you are referring to nitrification of N2 ammonia into nitrate when N2 fixing nitrifying bacteria take ammonia from the air? I wonder if there is great enough nitrification (N2 > nitrate) from N2 fixing bacteria to effect pH. And I wonder how it would effect pH, I think it will probably lower pH considering Matt said nitrification of ammonium into nitrate is an acidifying process, I assume nitrification of N2 into nitrate is also an acidifying process...?
Shrubs, trees and fungi tend to prefer ammonium while plants, many grasses and bacteria tend to prefer nitrates. Media with great amounts of fungi tends to have lower nitrification.
I wonder if the level of ammonification (OM > ammonia > ammonium = pH up), and nitrification (ammonia > nitrate = pH down) from N2 fixing bacteria would cancel each other out? I think maybe not but I assume the nitrification will reduce the effect of ammonficiation (ammonia > ammoium) on slowing pH drop.
(FWIW: the N fixed by N2 bacteria is held by them until they are (for example) eaten by protozoa, at that point the stored nitrates will be released and the plant can use some of the nitrates)
If my previous paragraph is true, and your preceding statement is true, it means applying EJ to organic media should decrease media pH similarly to the application of ammoniacal fertilizes, however, counter-intuitively the application of ammonium (via. EJ) in microbiological horticulture does not decrease media pH, it increases media pH (according my understating of the paper).
When the ammoniacal nitrogen from synthetic fertilizers is converted into nitrate nitrogen (through bacterial nitrification) the pH should potentially drop, as you and Matt noted (because it's an acidifying process). Although there may be little (or non-diverse) microbiological activity in media with heavily applied salts like ammoniacal nitrogen. The same potential pH drop should be true with organic fertilizers and organic growing, but as the researchers pointed out it is not. AFAIU in organic microbiological horticulture there should be little ammonification of ammonia into ammonium, mostly ammonification > nitrification as OM > ammonium > nitrite > nitrate.
Please see my thoughts about the limited amount of ammonification of ammonia into ammonium in soilless media, tho there is a good deal of ammonium ammonification (of OM) and then nitrification which both you and Matt noted is an acidifying process, IMO your overall point seems correct about media pH drop except the part about ammonification of ammonia into ammonium reducing the speed of pH drop in organic microbiological horticulture.
) just in a round-about way (it seems to me) in that the pH drop should not be noticeably reduced in organic microbiological horticulture because there should be little ammonification of ammonia into ammonium, I think much of the ammonification of OM is directly into ammonium, not ammonia.
Thanks and sorry if I wrote something stupid, correct me as you see error please.
Thanks for that good post, please see my comments below.
That is counter to what the study found IIRC, I need to re-read it. The researchers did add 15% EWC to the organic soilless mixes which were pretty devoid of OM before that so Matt may have a very good point. The form of N the researchers where discussing was ammonium (e.g., from EJ) which is same ion (AFAIK) as found in synthetic ammoniacal fertilizers Matt wrote about.
That's is good to know, I was unaware. This is important because IIRC much of the bio-available N ion fraction in most OM like guano and bottled fertilizes like EJ is ammonium.
The reason to do those tests is account for moisture content of media. I also thought PourThru was most commonly used, but I still think the method by Cornell U., might be more accurate. I don't know enough to be sure either way, I will shoot Cornell U, an email.
----------------------------------
I was referring to Matt's work where we writes about nitrates (alkaline) increasing pH of media and ammonium (acidic, ammoniacal N) decreasing pH of media. The same ammonium cation is often found in organic OM, that is the ammonium I believe the researchers in the paper "Plant Development and Harvest Yields of Greenhouse Tomatoes in Six Organic Growing Systems" were discussing on page 3, paragraph 3.
I can see your point about organic sequestered N, however there is a fraction of the "Total N" in organic matter (e.g., bat guano or compost) that is in ionic form without attached carbon; ie., bio-available ammonium and nitrate that plant can use right away. I might be missing something but why would ammonium cation (without attached carbon) from organics like EJ or guano (i.e., microbial bio-fertilizer) be different than the same ammonium cation from a factory?
Maybe this is not what the researchers were referring to in the paper. I am going to re-read that section of the paper, maybe I am mixed up as to what the researchers are claiming.
Kind of (AFIAK). Microbes (fungi and bacteria) breakdown OM (e.g., guano or green compost feedstocks like cut grass) into ammonia and ammonium [ammonification] and into nitrites and nitrates [nitrification], etc., and some microbes convert ammonia from OM (e.g., green manure) into ammonium [ammonification], and into nitrites and nitrates [nitrification]. Other bacteria can fix N2 (gaseous ammonia) into nitrates [nitrification], etc.
We wouldn't have ammonia (or nil) in our media top start with, or use fertilizers that intentionally include ammonia because it's photoxic. Bio-available N ions in organic fertilizers are mostly ammonium or nitrate (more often the former IIRC). In compost and media ammonia is either lost to the atmosphere (volatilized), covered by microbes into non-volatile N like ammonium, nitrites and then nitrates, etc., or bound to CEC (IIRC from a chemical reaction with Ca but I am not sure what form of N, ammonium?). There is generally very little ammonia in OM like mature compost and EWC, etc., but the creation of ammonia from breakdown of OM is a valid concern (i.e., ammonification). I however wonder how much ammonia is created and how great of an effect it would really have on media pH verses no ammonification (ammonia > ammonium). I think the pH effect of that ammonification (ammonia > ammonium) may not be great because AFAIK a majority of most ammonification (of OM) creates ammonium, not ammonia.
Unless you are referring to nitrification of N2 ammonia into nitrate when N2 fixing nitrifying bacteria take ammonia from the air? I wonder if there is great enough nitrification (N2 > nitrate) from N2 fixing bacteria to effect pH. And I wonder how it would effect pH, I think it will probably lower pH considering Matt said nitrification of ammonium into nitrate is an acidifying process, I assume nitrification of N2 into nitrate is also an acidifying process...?
Are you referring to nitrification of ammonium into nitrates? If so I agree, that makes sense.
Shrubs, trees and fungi tend to prefer ammonium while plants, many grasses and bacteria tend to prefer nitrates. Media with great amounts of fungi tends to have lower nitrification.
The same should be true with organic microbiological horticulture as there should be no (or nil) ammonia in soilless media or organic fertilizers to start with.
I wonder if the level of ammonification (OM > ammonia > ammonium = pH up), and nitrification (ammonia > nitrate = pH down) from N2 fixing bacteria would cancel each other out? I think maybe not but I assume the nitrification will reduce the effect of ammonficiation (ammonia > ammoium) on slowing pH drop.
(FWIW: the N fixed by N2 bacteria is held by them until they are (for example) eaten by protozoa, at that point the stored nitrates will be released and the plant can use some of the nitrates)
I agree, however the initial loss of an H via ammonification of ammonia into ammonium should not happen (I assume) to a degree which increases pH mostly because there should not be a great amount of ammonia produced during ammonification (of OM) and there should be nil ammonia in soilless media and organic fertilizers to start with. And the N2 fixing bacteria tend to fix ammonia into nitrate which may lower pH or more probably nullify the potential pH increase from ammonification of ammonia into ammonium. Do you know the H usage with nitrification of N2 into nitrate by N2 fixing nitrifying bacteria?
If my previous paragraph is true, and your preceding statement is true, it means applying EJ to organic media should decrease media pH similarly to the application of ammoniacal fertilizes, however, counter-intuitively the application of ammonium (via. EJ) in microbiological horticulture does not decrease media pH, it increases media pH (according my understating of the paper).
When the ammoniacal nitrogen from synthetic fertilizers is converted into nitrate nitrogen (through bacterial nitrification) the pH should potentially drop, as you and Matt noted (because it's an acidifying process). Although there may be little (or non-diverse) microbiological activity in media with heavily applied salts like ammoniacal nitrogen. The same potential pH drop should be true with organic fertilizers and organic growing, but as the researchers pointed out it is not. AFAIU in organic microbiological horticulture there should be little ammonification of ammonia into ammonium, mostly ammonification > nitrification as OM > ammonium > nitrite > nitrate.
Please see my thoughts about the limited amount of ammonification of ammonia into ammonium in soilless media, tho there is a good deal of ammonium ammonification (of OM) and then nitrification which both you and Matt noted is an acidifying process, IMO your overall point seems correct about media pH drop except the part about ammonification of ammonia into ammonium reducing the speed of pH drop in organic microbiological horticulture.
One thing which I find lacking in that study is the absence of data on SWF, plant counts, etc. Also, they should have offered a % breakdown of Total N and bio-available N fractions of EJ and Magna Gro because there should be no/nil ammonia in either. I do not think the researchers in that paper were referring to ammonia, but to ammonium, although I could be wrong. But again, IMO you are still correct (
) just in a round-about way (it seems to me) in that the pH drop should not be noticeably reduced in organic microbiological horticulture because there should be little ammonification of ammonia into ammonium, I think much of the ammonification of OM is directly into ammonium, not ammonia.Thanks and sorry if I wrote something stupid, correct me as you see error please.
S
secondtry
Hey DC,
No, I bout a bag of 35lb (IIRC) for $13 or $23. Shipping cost more than the zeolite! I tried to find my source but I have not found it so for far. I suggest you call Peaceful Valley Farm Supply ( www.groworganic.com ) and ask them where to buy it, I think they told me about the Vermont guy.
HTH
No, I bout a bag of 35lb (IIRC) for $13 or $23. Shipping cost more than the zeolite! I tried to find my source but I have not found it so for far. I suggest you call Peaceful Valley Farm Supply ( www.groworganic.com ) and ask them where to buy it, I think they told me about the Vermont guy.
HTH
S
secondtry
I agree it sound good, I like that it's from "agricultural biomass feedstocks - never industrial or municipal wastes"; manure? You should ask what the freedstocks are/is.
However, if I know 2nd try just a little, he's on top of all that I've spoken of, and his rice hulls are pre-treated, and have something going on that he gets excited about.
Yes sir. The rice hulls are pyrolyzed, which is the same method used by the ebay seller of bio-char
Phyrolyed is high quality bio-char on the cheap.Dave, did you see my post about making your own pyrolyzed bio-char? You don't have to use rice hulls, I use them because they have great physical properties and they are bio-char. It super easy, just get two metal container, one taller/bigger then the other and get some wood for fire and get your bio-char feedstocks: can be compost, vermicast, night soil, horse/cow manure, table scrapps, etc, etc. See the post on page 1 or 2, get how-to links with pics.
You are the reason I decided to look into adding bio-char to my soilless mix form your post in the old AM fungi thread.
I think this product sounds in line with what you want, but still want 2nd's opinion. He's a bit specific...
Ha, yup, guilty. My only concern is the NPK, why is it so high? What were the feedstocks used to make the bio-char and was it treated with something after (like my use of hydrolyzed fish to lower C:N, etc).
If you have a small backyard/front yard to put a small pyrolysis setup (maybe 3' in diameter) you can make your own bio-char, older 'field dried' horse manure is a great choice of bio-char feedstock.
HTH
S
secondtry
Honestly it just happens for me, I think I have an near eidetic memory for things which are of interest to me and I can comprehend very complex concepts with little effort (if I am interested in it). I read very fast from practice I guess, I have always been that way.
Tho I do use Que cards for exams too, and for boring classes I use mind-mapping like you do. Have you looked into Notropics?
I like to use what I call 'mind-muscle' tricks. Like placing a clock with hour hands (non-digital) at a random number of hours and minutes ahead or behind of the real time. Then when I hang it I place it at odd rotations so the 12 o'clock hour is where the 4 o'clock hour should be, etc. When I need to know the time I have to work my mind muscle to figure it out. Once I get used to the time on he clock I change it and spin the clock.
HTH
I didn't say, Ammoniacal N is any different than synthetic A-N. Its just the ammonia that is formed from the breakdown of OM is likely the difference maker. Im glad you said Ammonia, and A-N is both a result of breakdown of OM. I wasn't sure if it was both, or just Ammonia which was then further converted into A-N. Its hard to find totally correct info on the internet for some reason. I didn't even pay attention to EJ being the organic fert in the tomato study. That throws for me a loop now.
No clue. Thats more work. This post of yours is already enough to reply to
Do you have any papers that go into detail about ammonification? Id love to read something detailed about the breakdown of organic matter. All I can ever find is general stuff that just states: OM breaks down into Ammonia, and Ammonium.
Its frustrating to try and find info that tells me exactly what happens and what quantities are produced via the breakdown, etc, yada yada.
You should email Bill Argo, and ask him his thoughts on how much ammonification/organic matter affects media PH. If anyone can figure it out, it would be him.
MrFista, with regards to how I cosume info/study..I just wing it. I have no clue what kinesthetic reinforcement, mind mapping is or what a near eidetic memory is that 2ndtry mentioned. I just read read and read, and eventually it'll stick in there for awhile for me to get some use out of it I hope
Im not even sure why I am going through all the trouble of trying to figure out why organic ferts are less acidic. Its enough to know that they do this, and 99% of the people on this site could care less why it is. They're just happy with it doing its thing. Ive just always enjoyed science, even though I didn't really care much for Chemistry, yet here we are discussing chemistry
A question about liquid organic ferts. How broken down is it? Is all the N in Ammonium form when applied, or is some of it still in an organic form that needs to be broken down?
http://www.microbiologyprocedure.com/soil-microbiology/ammonification-in-soil.htm
S
secondtry
Hey Dave,
Ah, OK, thanks, I must have misread.
The amount of bio-available N (mostly as ammonium) in EJ is why EJ is considered to be 'hot' and can burn plants if over applied, this is why people 'bubble' EJ for a few hours to day before application. In that study the EC from EJ was 2(!) and higher than EC of the chemical fertilizer controls. The researches noted that EJ was too hot and they suggested waiting 4 weeks before planting after applying EJ to media...
Please note the topic of water-soluble bio-available N (like ammonium) verses water-insoluble N in organic ferts like EJ is confusing and I don't understand it well. I have spoken with two different experts last week and there seems to be little agreement. You may want to read my posts in the thread "all about guano"; I wrote about Florida label laws of guano, etc. I can give you contact info of some experts if you want more info.
Because of that study I am going to buy Magna Gro and test it out for my next organic grow next month.
HTH
P.S.
near eidetic memory = near photographic memory
Ah, OK, thanks, I must have misread.
Hehe, that's like asking Santa if he has presents. Yea I have some good reading for you, but I can't post till next week. For now I suggest you research mushroom compost process and science, that is where to get amazing amounts of well funded research and info from as early as the 1950's...all about ammonification for compost fungi will 'eat'.
Have you tried google scholar? Or other journal search engines? That is a good place to start, if you find papers you want to read but they cost money give me the list and I can get them for free, as can MrFista.
Check out the Cornell U., Compost Science and Engineering site I linked to (the pH link) there is good info at that site. And also check out Penn State Mushroom Science Dept (not the real name but it should help you find it), TONS of info at that site, lots of info on mushroom composting process and ammonification, etc.
I may but I don't really see a reason to, I not sure how I could use the info.
I agree 100%, I was going to write as much today. I think the statement by Matt is very applicable: "Once you start getting into the chemistry of what happens when you apply an organic fertilizer it can get extremely dynamic and complicated."
Both. The "Total N" is water-soluble N and water-insoluble N. The former would be ammonium, nitrate, etc, without carbon attached and the latter would be N in sequestered form which is broken down via ammonifiation, etc. So there are immediately available ions for microbes and plants, and there is sequestered N in OM which is broken down over time (the latter is water-insoluble and makes up a greater % of the Total N).
The amount of bio-available N (mostly as ammonium) in EJ is why EJ is considered to be 'hot' and can burn plants if over applied, this is why people 'bubble' EJ for a few hours to day before application. In that study the EC from EJ was 2(!) and higher than EC of the chemical fertilizer controls. The researches noted that EJ was too hot and they suggested waiting 4 weeks before planting after applying EJ to media...
Please note the topic of water-soluble bio-available N (like ammonium) verses water-insoluble N in organic ferts like EJ is confusing and I don't understand it well. I have spoken with two different experts last week and there seems to be little agreement. You may want to read my posts in the thread "all about guano"; I wrote about Florida label laws of guano, etc. I can give you contact info of some experts if you want more info.
Because of that study I am going to buy Magna Gro and test it out for my next organic grow next month.
HTH
P.S.
near eidetic memory = near photographic memory
Thanks for clearing some stuff up for me. Ill check out those sites for more info.
With regards to Zeolite and Peaceful Valley, the guy who wrote back said he had never even heard of it. I find it hard to believe with all the stuff they deal in, he's never heard of it. I obviously get someone who has no clue. Grr.
I spoke with a Chemistry guy on another forum, and I asked him about Ammonia from OM breaking down, and he said it rarely forms in nature in any significant amount. So everything you've said is further cemented, but it makes still puzzles me how organic ferts can be less acidifying than synthetic ferts if it isn't because of Ammonia, so I decided to write Paul V. Nelson from that Tomato study. Ill keep you updated.
With regards to Zeolite and Peaceful Valley, the guy who wrote back said he had never even heard of it. I find it hard to believe with all the stuff they deal in, he's never heard of it. I obviously get someone who has no clue. Grr.
I spoke with a Chemistry guy on another forum, and I asked him about Ammonia from OM breaking down, and he said it rarely forms in nature in any significant amount. So everything you've said is further cemented, but it makes still puzzles me how organic ferts can be less acidifying than synthetic ferts if it isn't because of Ammonia, so I decided to write Paul V. Nelson from that Tomato study. Ill keep you updated.
wow that was awesome.
Secondtry, did you ever post on cannabis-world? Theres a thread there thats about soil substrates, properties, etc, etc, that makes me think it may have been done by you.
S
secondtry
Hey Dave,
NP. I will post URLs to the Penn State site unless you have already found it?
Anyway, here is a great source of natural zeolite ("clinoptilolite"), I have not used them before but I spend a while chatting with one of their tech guys and I am buying from them. They have many different sizes to choose from, but I am kind of torn between the "ultrafine mesh" with a median size of 6 microns and a mean size of 9.8 microns, and the "60 cycle" which is a median size of 15 microns and a mean size of 23 microns. I think the 60 cycle might be the better choice and in bulk it's cheaper...but I'm not sure. Regardless, I am buying 5 or 10 gallons of the '60 cycle' that is about 40 pounds per 5 gallons and few cubic feet (the size of a 5 gallon bucket).
http://www.bearriverzeolite.com/sales.htm
I asked him which method to measure pH he thinks is better and why: NCSU PourThru or the method/s suggested by Cornell U.
I talked to some people at Fafard and have some good info to post in my next post. Gotta go now.
NP. I will post URLs to the Penn State site unless you have already found it?
Yea I called them about it too, weirdos.
Anyway, here is a great source of natural zeolite ("clinoptilolite"), I have not used them before but I spend a while chatting with one of their tech guys and I am buying from them. They have many different sizes to choose from, but I am kind of torn between the "ultrafine mesh" with a median size of 6 microns and a mean size of 9.8 microns, and the "60 cycle" which is a median size of 15 microns and a mean size of 23 microns. I think the 60 cycle might be the better choice and in bulk it's cheaper...but I'm not sure. Regardless, I am buying 5 or 10 gallons of the '60 cycle' that is about 40 pounds per 5 gallons and few cubic feet (the size of a 5 gallon bucket).
http://www.bearriverzeolite.com/sales.htm
Cool, let me know. I have been speaking with a Ph.D. (I don't want to write his name in public) about these matter and specific mixes, etc, this Ph.D. is a graduate of NCSU Floraculture Dept and is trained in the use of the NCSU porometer. I am awaiting a large bit of data from him on many questions I wrote him about some specific data on specific medias. I will PM you the text of my email to him so you can see what he and I are discussing, or more accurately, what he is telling me and helping me with.
I asked him which method to measure pH he thinks is better and why: NCSU PourThru or the method/s suggested by Cornell U.
I talked to some people at Fafard and have some good info to post in my next post. Gotta go now.
