Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[Animal Mother]

This is only my 2nd grow, ever. Learned a ton from the first. I'm wondering when I defoliate during flower will it harm the buds if I touch them or move them?

They're from the same mother as my first grow and there are twice as many bud sites and branches , I started defoliating early and it's showing a huge difference.

 

[pearlemae]

I will say that defoliating has certainly gotten more light to the plant's centers. New buds are growing nicely.Took these today. Fresh tiny buds.

 

[thcAholic]

Im glad i am a member of this site.... I am learning sooooooo much!!!
~TAC.

 

[philmb]

Bit of a side by side i got going on. Usually never defoliate at all but thought i'd give it a go after reading this thread.

Same plants (Grapefruit).
Same mother
Fed from the same res.
both under 600 HPS.
Same everything really.

 

[727JoN]

wtf is going on in that picture? lol...i cant really tell which one you defoliated and which one hasnt been trimmed...

 

[philmb]

lol, the 2 on the left have been defoliated.. its obviouse man =) .. Took fkn heaps of leaves off them.

 

[k33ftr33z]

I wouldn't call this a 'first step' in growing... this is stressing a plant well beyond it's normal growing patterns. It's just hoped this will bump the plant into greater weight production... through total defoliation... not natural. If you did this to an already unhealthy plant under unhealthy conditions... highly doubt there would be any positive gain.

On that note, I'm quite curious as to the 'quality' of the end product... not just weight. Would a plant w all of its leaves produce higher cannabinoid contents, or at a different profile, would the aromatics & flavor be the same? Really interesting thread...

As for unhealthy plants, proper management demands they should be removed if falling behind the rest of a group. I'm not running a plant infirmary. There are plenty of healthy replacements in the veg unit.

This technique is certainly not stressing plants. Underwatering, pests and disease all stress plants. Plants are perfectly comfortable with training and vegetation removal. Arborists and fruit producers use various training techniques to improve shape and yield. Salad greens are continually harvested while plants continually produce more leaves. All plants love leaf removal. Their sole existence in life is to provide whatever we want from it. Trees in the Serengeti are continually nibbled higher and higher by elephants and giraffes. They attain a beautiful natural trim assisted by the wildlife.

As for quality, this question has been asked several times. Flowers develop just as they do with shade leaves except when employing a full veg to finish defoliation regimen you have a lot more budsites and they all enjoy better light exposure. That is the only explanation for the resulting better yield and consistent top to bottom quality.

The result of defoliation creating more balanced development is a function of improved light exposure.

 

[k33ftr33z]

Question for this method. Let me preface this by saying I did do a search in this thread under "diagnosis" and "troubleshooting".

That being said, do high levels of defoliating make it harder to recognize and troubleshoot plant problems?? As we all know, problems are typically indicated by the way the leaves look. Well without leaves, how do you know how your plants are doing? Or should this technique be used after you've dialed in methods, strains, environment, etc...?

TIA

This method may be a part of dialing in your setup. It is a management technique for maximizing plant stature and productive sites. Indoor growing utilizes a limited amount of quality light in a limited area. Cannabis plants are absolutely unmindful of those limitations and will quickly take over the works without a little prodding from the manager. Cloning, SOG, SCROG, Spacing, Veg time, are some of the management techniques we use to get he most from this plant and to adapt it to our artificial environments. Defoliation is just another management technique.

As for troubleshooting, There are still plenty of leaves left on the plant to reveal any stress. You cannot get them all except on the first pluck in veg.

 

[k33ftr33z]

Bit of a side by side i got going on. Usually never defoliate at all but thought i'd give it a go after reading this thread.

Same plants (Grapefruit).
Same mother
Fed from the same res.
both under 600 HPS.
Same everything really.

You've got the idea.

 

[k33ftr33z]

Bit of a side by side i got going on. Usually never defoliate at all but thought i'd give it a go after reading this thread.

Same plants (Grapefruit).
Same mother
Fed from the same res.
both under 600 HPS.
Same everything really.

Nice SCROG. My take on SCROG is a lighter weight screen. Some SCROG advocates use a hardware mesh as you have there as the vehicle for training the branches. My twist on this is to lighten up and minimize the mesh to a net of just a very few lines of mason's twine. Get the braided type as it has much more stretch. A PVC frame with legs of a proper height is simple to construct. Tying up a net is simple and requires only 4 knots regardless of how many crosslines you desire. It can be untied at harvest an slipped out as one piece and reused next time before cutting any branches. Makes harvesting a scrog much easier. The net acts as more of a rest for bent and twisted branches. I do most of the training above the net instead of under like in most scrogs. The net is only 16" above the base and plants do not extend more than about 8-10" above the net. My rule of thumb for training is when a branch is more than about 8" vertical it is time to bend it horizontal, lay it on the net and deleaf it.

 

[Animal Mother]

This is only my 2nd grow, ever. Learned a ton from the first. I'm wondering when I defoliate during flower will it harm the buds if I touch them or move them?

They're from the same mother as my first grow and there are twice as many bud sites and branches , I started defoliating early and it's showing a huge difference

 

[philmb]

To be honest my scrogs are usually a little different. This was set up in a temporary spot and was a bit of a 'throw together', a bit rushed...

Dont usually use metal mesh, and the 'holes' are to small in this stuff, makes training a bit of a nightmare but had it handy n thought i'd use it. Like ya said bigger holes are heaps better. And i to, usually train kinda half under and half above the screen.

Will be interesting to see if my yeilds are much different in the end.

 

[jeffie]

I used to do this on my first grows but as I found later it really stressed my plants. I still do it cos it does work but now only once and a week before harvest. Helps with getting popcorn a little fatter.

 

[Centrum]

I want to stress to those interested yet uninitiated that you MUST prepare the plant in Veg. If you just placed some plants in 12/12 and you now decide to try this, you will be sorely disappointed.

It is all about having the patience to move back the timeline and add additional veg time into your schedule. Once this additional time has been integrated into the process it becomes standard and does not add to the actual production cycle.

We are creating a much different plant and growth cycle so diligence and commitment to the plan is essential. Just removing a few leaves will not do it.

It is the stretch we are trying to contain. Stretching is the enemy as well as the huge leaves that accompany it.

Danger, Im glad your interested, I must say i was shocked when i first heard of this procedure! Everything i knew and learned over 14yrs told me that it was insane to cut off all the fan leaves!
Low and behold, after a couple experiments, there is NO turning back!
After Long and carefull thought of why this works... I come to this conclusion:
1, The bud site itself grows small fan leaves that support the growth of the bud, Do not remove these, You can trim them if they are to large and shading other buds.
2, once the roots are established and the plant is healthy, the support of the large fan leaf is not necessary. I believe they are more essential for outside growth where the conditions are no perfect, watering feeding , ect...

Here is a pic of a set i did awhile back. if i remember correctly, i cut them off at 14 days. this seemed a little to early after it was all said and done, i now wait until 20 days or so to let some lower site's to establish.
I then trim again at day 40 or so to clear out some of the new growth that has accumulated.
A couple pics of some of some fully ripened at 56 days. this strain usually takes 65-68 in a bigger version!

I hope this helps! if you have any other Q's, shoot!
Thanks, Jro

I just noticed you said 20 days veg. You only do this in flower!

Seems like two people who have experience with this technique have two totally different views of how to do it.

k33ftr33z you state that you have start in veg and prep before flowering and jrosek cautions not to do this in veg and only to do this 21 days into flower and after.

Tough one. Maybe a side by side of a veg defoiled / veg not defoiled grow to see which produces more.

Take care

 

[Natagonnaworrie]

Bit of a side by side i got going on. Usually never defoliate at all but thought i'd give it a go after reading this thread.

Same plants (Grapefruit).
Same mother
Fed from the same res.
both under 600 HPS.
Same everything really.

way to go... keep us posted.

 

[pearlemae]

Animal Mothr Go ahead and get rid of the fan leaves . You should see the buds get bigger from the extra light I did it to a plant from seed as it was budding and the bud increased in size quickly. Take the fan leaves not the small ones sticking out of the buds. The leaves in the pic were all crystally so I didn't trim them.

 

[smokefrogg]

when you defoliate often, there is so much less to do when it comes time to trim =)

 

[SGMeds]

Bit of a side by side i got going on. Usually never defoliate at all but thought i'd give it a go after reading this thread.

Same plants (Grapefruit).
Same mother
Fed from the same res.
both under 600 HPS.
Same everything really.

Excellent!!! Please keep us posted on how they develop & smoke! Thank you ;-)


k33~ also, thank you for the response. peace

 

[k33ftr33z]

Seems like two people who have experience with this technique have two totally different views of how to do it.

k33ftr33z you state that you have start in veg and prep before flowering and jrosek cautions not to do this in veg and only to do this 21 days into flower and after.

Tough one. Maybe a side by side of a veg defoiled / veg not defoiled grow to see which produces more.

Take care

That's ok. In fact you may even find some progression in my advice as I have found easier reception to the technique than in the past. This is a management technique and can be used at any time in the cycle.

To clarify the preparation in veg, that would vary by grower depending on the desired end result as far as how much space you intend the finished group to fill. I'm preparing a plant that will fill 32" cubed. Actually shorter as these usually finish under 30" after the final bend and twist. Finish weight is about 10oz. and has been as high as 12oz. I think it could be pushed a little more by better strains. These are the largest and heaviest indoor plants I've ever grown after moving up to 32" center. The veg prep is key to tame a large plant to fill that space in bud and not stretch out of the given allotment.


I cautioned jumping into this because a plant that is not at peak vigor but may end up with some usable bud could be ruined by defoliation. I was being very cautious and encouraging those who want to try it to practice in veg as there is nothing to lose with disposable veg starts. The response to defoliation is remarkable in veg. Best way to see it is to completely strip a clone, pinch it hard at the base and bend it absolutely flat as if someone had stepped on it.

Clearly JR likes a little stretch to fill his space. Thats ok. He has made great use of the technique to help his plants adapt and fill in all of his grow space. In fact I may allow a little more vertical in some future cycles if I can adapt the headroom. I love bonsai so I can't help but to bend the shit out of my girls. I like arranging the arms around the mesh so that everything is adequately exposed.

 

[k33ftr33z]

This is only my 2nd grow, ever. Learned a ton from the first. I'm wondering when I defoliate during flower will it harm the buds if I touch them or move them?

They're from the same mother as my first grow and there are twice as many bud sites and branches , I started defoliating early and it's showing a huge difference

You can't hurt anything poking around in there. Wear some latex or nitrile gloves if you want to avoid sticky fingers. I bend and splay out everything out to the very end clusters. By getting into the main colas early and splaying them apart helps them fill in thoroughly. Be careful though, the branchlets that hold the cola together are also the youngest of branches so can be tender. You don't want to snap out the side of a nice head.