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Commercial outdoor organic soil mixes for 2016
- Thread starter TheOutlawTree
- Start date
I would go with the bulk and the "clay".
You have plenty of semi digested organic matter in your mix already with peat. No need for more
A little top soil math
I found some top soil really close to me for like $30 a yard. It lackef organic matter so I made a 2 parts top soil/1 part peat mix and sent it to logan.
Tcec 25.94
pH. 5.3
Organic matter. 10.35
Sulfer. 21 ppm
P2O5. 110 lbs per acre
Ca. 47.94%
Mg. 8.22%
K. 0.87%
Na. 0.16%
So it looks like it needs a lot til you do the math. For example it needs 2108 lbs of Ca/acre. But, considering this is 75% of the mix with some drainage amendment being the rest, I only need 2 lbs per yard Ca.
10 lbs of crab meal satisfies that...no extra minerals needed.
I can finish this mix without having to deal with a single thing in excess. And it will weigh 3x the normal mix...hold 3x the food at equal tcec. For less than $50 a yard.
Edit...finished that is 41 ppm P2O5. I will have to add a little P
I found some top soil really close to me for like $30 a yard. It lackef organic matter so I made a 2 parts top soil/1 part peat mix and sent it to logan.
Tcec 25.94
pH. 5.3
Organic matter. 10.35
Sulfer. 21 ppm
P2O5. 110 lbs per acre
Ca. 47.94%
Mg. 8.22%
K. 0.87%
Na. 0.16%
So it looks like it needs a lot til you do the math. For example it needs 2108 lbs of Ca/acre. But, considering this is 75% of the mix with some drainage amendment being the rest, I only need 2 lbs per yard Ca.
10 lbs of crab meal satisfies that...no extra minerals needed.
I can finish this mix without having to deal with a single thing in excess. And it will weigh 3x the normal mix...hold 3x the food at equal tcec. For less than $50 a yard.
Edit...finished that is 41 ppm P2O5. I will have to add a little P
TheOutlawTree
Active member
So I'm still at sort of a stand still here. The yard is sounding like they may not be willing to work with me on the peat moss deal. They told me I'm getting the peat so cheap because the 55 cu ft bales are compressed, and that there 160-180$ a yard peat is so expensive because it comes pre-fluffed. I'm not buying that completely, I mean even if it took them a full 8 hour day to fluff the bales @ 150$ an hour the alaska peat would still only cost around 50$ a yard. I still havent talked with them directly but that should be done this week to confirm our decision on that.
A consultant I'm working with, wants to change the whole ammendment part of the mix. It does sound better to me, but I'm not sure about cost's just yet. He thinks it will only be around 15$ per yard for the ammendments. He is also not liking the fact that the place in grass valley uses a front end loader for the mixing, and i agree but what can you do.
He wants to do the following in unknown amounts, depending on the results of the base mix test results
Kelp Meal
Humate Ore
Azomite
Glacial rock dust
Tennessee brown phosphate
fish bone meal
Feather meal
Chile nitrate of soda
Sulfates of iron, manganese, copper, zinc, and potash
Kmag
myco-apply beneficial fungi
solubor boron
------------------------
I am in contact with a place in oregon that is more commercial and has a big soil batch mixer. They told me they can even source zeolite which is sweet because i really wasnt looking forward to hand mixing 80 gallons of the clay at my land into each 800g pot. I'm still waiting for the test results to confirm the clay at my land will even work.
A consultant I'm working with, wants to change the whole ammendment part of the mix. It does sound better to me, but I'm not sure about cost's just yet. He thinks it will only be around 15$ per yard for the ammendments. He is also not liking the fact that the place in grass valley uses a front end loader for the mixing, and i agree but what can you do.
He wants to do the following in unknown amounts, depending on the results of the base mix test results
Kelp Meal
Humate Ore
Azomite
Glacial rock dust
Tennessee brown phosphate
fish bone meal
Feather meal
Chile nitrate of soda
Sulfates of iron, manganese, copper, zinc, and potash
Kmag
myco-apply beneficial fungi
solubor boron
------------------------
I am in contact with a place in oregon that is more commercial and has a big soil batch mixer. They told me they can even source zeolite which is sweet because i really wasnt looking forward to hand mixing 80 gallons of the clay at my land into each 800g pot. I'm still waiting for the test results to confirm the clay at my land will even work.
TheOutlawTree
Active member
I took 6 different samples of the dirt from last year and just got the results back. They dont look that bad to me... But i'm wondering how the heck the K is deficient after it was all the way up at 16-20% base saturation in the summer? Did the plants really use it all up, or did the gypsum change that somehow?
Attachments
TheOutlawTree
Active member
Another question-
What is the real difference between pure zeolite, and red clay? Would i be much better off using zeolite in my mix than red clay?
I am in contact with a zeolite mine in sandy valley NV, where i can get about 31 yards of pure zeolite for around 3k- without shipping. The guy is supposed to send me a bunch of test results from the zeolite- as far as whats in it, but he says its pure so I'm assuming its the same as all other pure zeolite.
What is the real difference between pure zeolite, and red clay? Would i be much better off using zeolite in my mix than red clay?
I am in contact with a zeolite mine in sandy valley NV, where i can get about 31 yards of pure zeolite for around 3k- without shipping. The guy is supposed to send me a bunch of test results from the zeolite- as far as whats in it, but he says its pure so I'm assuming its the same as all other pure zeolite.
Zeolite is very different than clay. It is more like a coarse grained sand that is green. 3 grows in it appears exactly as when I put it in the mix
Its advantage is you can load it with ammonium sulfate and have a slow release N...you can use it to control the c:n ratio.
I would seriously recommend not using more than 50 lbs a yard and precharging it.
This I'd another issue I would love to see avenger weigh in on. He tends to research things on a much deeper level than me
Its advantage is you can load it with ammonium sulfate and have a slow release N...you can use it to control the c:n ratio.
I would seriously recommend not using more than 50 lbs a yard and precharging it.
This I'd another issue I would love to see avenger weigh in on. He tends to research things on a much deeper level than me
Joe do you till or no-till outdoors? I remember seeing your plants last year and they were pulling their own N source from nearby vegetation (it didnt look like you purposely planted it either but it just naturally grew there and your plants were using it). Butte would grow his cover crop and then mow and till it in. I've seen people plant directly into their cover and let it grow right along with their plants. I suppose theres probably certain plants that serve as a cover/companion plant and then some are more suited to grow and turn under before planting.
How was your average last year? Did those lower canopy sites fill in like you were shooting for? That was some insane stacking you had going on.
How was your average last year? Did those lower canopy sites fill in like you were shooting for? That was some insane stacking you had going on.
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TheOutlawTree
Active member
The zeolite company just sent me 8 PDF documents that would give me my doctorate degree on zeolite. After skimming through i have found that that zeolite is pretty amazing and has many many uses.
I think its probably wise to use it in my mix. It will only up the cost of my mix by around 15$ per yard, and than I don't have to worry about hand mixing the clay from my land that is probably not consistent across the board anyway. What do you guys think?
- "storehouse for essential plant nutrients including nitrate, Phosphate, and Potassium
- High surface area provides soil with aeration and water retention capabilities
- Retains 50% of its weight in water and nutrients
- Buffers soil PH levels
- Moderates the nitrification of ammonia
- Controls nutrient assets by inhibiting release rates
- Prevents leaching or vaporization of essential plant nutrients
- Improves aeration of deep root systems by preventing soil compaction
- Prevents the accumulation of sodium in soil
- Reduces odors caused by various organic nutrients
- Controlled release of ammonia prevents root burn
- Large surface area provides platform for microbiological activity"
Milky I will run the pre-charging by astera to see what he says as well. He mentioned not using zeolite but using high grade calcium betonite clay called PelBon. I just forwarded all the test's for the zeolite though, so well see what he says. How exactly would I pre-charge the zeolite?
On another note- met with the yard today. They dont want to use the compressed bails of alaska peat, they say it will end up costing the same as one of there peats by the time they are done fluffing it.
I have searched around, and while i can certainly get my base mix cheaper than the place in grass valley, the freight is going to up my price per yard by 40$, even coming from humboldt.
I think when its said and done, assuming i use the zeolite in my mix it will be around 140$ per yard including tax, maybe a little less. I'm ok with that, this mix should be far superior vs vermifire or vital earth's mix that only has enough nutrients for a month and isnt balanced (at least vermifire anyway)
I think its probably wise to use it in my mix. It will only up the cost of my mix by around 15$ per yard, and than I don't have to worry about hand mixing the clay from my land that is probably not consistent across the board anyway. What do you guys think?
- "storehouse for essential plant nutrients including nitrate, Phosphate, and Potassium
- High surface area provides soil with aeration and water retention capabilities
- Retains 50% of its weight in water and nutrients
- Buffers soil PH levels
- Moderates the nitrification of ammonia
- Controls nutrient assets by inhibiting release rates
- Prevents leaching or vaporization of essential plant nutrients
- Improves aeration of deep root systems by preventing soil compaction
- Prevents the accumulation of sodium in soil
- Reduces odors caused by various organic nutrients
- Controlled release of ammonia prevents root burn
- Large surface area provides platform for microbiological activity"
Milky I will run the pre-charging by astera to see what he says as well. He mentioned not using zeolite but using high grade calcium betonite clay called PelBon. I just forwarded all the test's for the zeolite though, so well see what he says. How exactly would I pre-charge the zeolite?
On another note- met with the yard today. They dont want to use the compressed bails of alaska peat, they say it will end up costing the same as one of there peats by the time they are done fluffing it.
I have searched around, and while i can certainly get my base mix cheaper than the place in grass valley, the freight is going to up my price per yard by 40$, even coming from humboldt.
I think when its said and done, assuming i use the zeolite in my mix it will be around 140$ per yard including tax, maybe a little less. I'm ok with that, this mix should be far superior vs vermifire or vital earth's mix that only has enough nutrients for a month and isnt balanced (at least vermifire anyway)
Attachments
Jd...they filled out ok.
I have been no till 2 yrs. I have not decided for this spring.
I have a different situation that keeps me from letting plants grow really big. If my neighbors complain I will have to cut them down...so I stay safe and grow In more than 1 spot.
One of those spots I dug holes and filled with my soil. This is where "cover crops" grew out of nowhere...mostly broad leaf stuff with some wild flax. I will use build a soils mix next yr.
In pots avoiding the top drying out is a bigger concern to me. I use straw cause it breaks down slower
Outlaw...I really advise against more than 50 lb zeolite per yard. I have not gone above that...could be it holds stuff so tight your microbes don't get ot quickly enough.
I just water the zeolite with a solution of as. I do it in a smartie to runoff
1 thing for sure zeolite is no magic bullet no matter what the marketing implies. It is at best a tweak on top of a living, balanced soil. Not worth huge risk
I just water the zeolite with a solution of as. I do it in a smartie to runoff
1 thing for sure zeolite is no magic bullet no matter what the marketing implies. It is at best a tweak on top of a living, balanced soil. Not worth huge risk
TheOutlawTree
Active member
Milky, so you think I'm best to stick to the original plan of just using the clay at land that's free, as long as it tests ok? It wouldn't break my heart... Saving 4-5k
www.bearriverzeolite.com/soil_amendment.htm
This is the zeolite I use. Just to hold some extra NH4 in the soil in plant available but not soluble form.
This is the zeolite I use. Just to hold some extra NH4 in the soil in plant available but not soluble form.
TheOutlawTree
Active member
Just got the results back on my clay... Now im out to mix the base mix and send results in for that. Is the high PPM of aluminum nothing to worry about?
EDIT- On of my consultants told me not to use this clay because it has a low CEC and is acidic. I was advised to get some PelBon Clay for my mix, which has a CEC of 31 and good amounts of CA, MG, and FE.
EDIT2- He also told me that i want to use the Pelbon at a rate of 10% by weight, not volume. I have to dry 1 gallon each of everything in the base mix for weighing in my oven
EDIT- On of my consultants told me not to use this clay because it has a low CEC and is acidic. I was advised to get some PelBon Clay for my mix, which has a CEC of 31 and good amounts of CA, MG, and FE.
EDIT2- He also told me that i want to use the Pelbon at a rate of 10% by weight, not volume. I have to dry 1 gallon each of everything in the base mix for weighing in my oven
Attachments
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breakersix
Member
TheOutlawTree
Active member
Got my test results back from the base mix. This was with 10% by weight pelbon.
I did the base mix test with and without the lava. Things are moving along slowly but surely. I've got to wait 2-3 weeks before the pelbon will be delivered but after that its time to mix
I did the base mix test with and without the lava. Things are moving along slowly but surely. I've got to wait 2-3 weeks before the pelbon will be delivered but after that its time to mix
Attachments
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TheOutlawTree
Active member
edit- PM
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R
Robrites
The parts of your soil test I looked at seemed relatively close so you might not need much. Your mix and the coots mix are different and so need different amendments/amounts. With 20 yards of soil, I'd probably get more than one test done.
TheOutlawTree
Active member
Yeah the coots base has 33% compost and castings, the orechron base has around 15% castings.... It's starting with less nutrients from the start. The mix I posted is obviously a little different than both orechrons and the coots but none the less, has a lot less amendments.
This mix has had enough tests done... It's ready to be mixed when the calcium bentonite arrives in a couple weeks. Once the soil is in its 800g pots I will add the sulfates / mix on my own.
I noticed this mix has a lot of the same ammendments as essential,s has....but a different base because of the added calcium bentonite.
Just started reading the ideal soil 2.0, that should help me understand more.
Edit- help me understand it did. Just got done reading about Cec and it cleared everything up for me, a great read so far.
This mix has had enough tests done... It's ready to be mixed when the calcium bentonite arrives in a couple weeks. Once the soil is in its 800g pots I will add the sulfates / mix on my own.
I noticed this mix has a lot of the same ammendments as essential,s has....but a different base because of the added calcium bentonite.
Just started reading the ideal soil 2.0, that should help me understand more.
Edit- help me understand it did. Just got done reading about Cec and it cleared everything up for me, a great read so far.
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