Coco newbie lookin for some advice

[dansbuds]

PK 13/14 is some really gnarly stuff. Even at 4ml per gallon it is pretty crazy. 6ml/gallon is probably too much, you'll probably want to cut that number in half.

ok , gotcha i will cut it back ( that was the charts recomondation )

KoolBloom Dry and KoolBloom Liquid are very different products and are not interchangeable. The Dry KoolBloom is more like a replacement for the Cannazym, just like how Hydroplex is, while the Liquid KoolBloom is more like a PK 13/14 replacement.

yeah kinda figured it was to hot , thats why i asked . couldn't i replace the cannazym with the powdered KB at low dosages then instead of buying the hydroplex ???? or is it too hot to use all through flowering like the cannazym & hydroplex ??

Thanx again man , you've been a wealth of knowledge for me & i appreciate it more than you could know !!!!

 

[dansbuds]

OK , trying to get the math straight in head on the ppm's of my nutes . you say that 1ml of 1% of an element will add 2.6455 ppm to my solution . so 1ml x 1% x 2.6455 = 2.6455 .

so lets start with the canna A

canna A 4-0-1 N 4% K2O 1% CO 4.5%

N @ 4% x 1ml x 2.6455 = 10.5 ppm
K2O @ 1% x 1ml x 2.6455 =2.6455 ppm
CO @ 4.5% x 1ml x 2.6455 = 11.9 ppm

so 1 ml of canna A would be 25.044 ppms
& @ 10 ml (high dose ) would be 250.44 ppms

is this correct ??

ok gotta do some math .... be back later .

I want to make sure my flowering nutes aren't to high , i think my transplant & veg are OK .

 

[dansbuds]

Looks like i'm in a good range & might even be able to step it up if i have to for any reason .
this is my flowering nute schedule
8ml of A & B
A = 200ppm
B = 128.4 ppm
5ml of rhizo = 15.8 ppm
2ml of calmag plus = 66.04 ppm
3ml of epsom = haven't figured that out yet
3ml of silica = 3.96 ppm
2ml of hydroplex = 84.65 ppm
3ml of PK 13/14 when added = 166.66

for a total of 649.71 ppms

looks pretty good to me , might even be a little low for full flowering with a PK boost . whatcha think snow crash ???

 

[Snow Crash]

OK , trying to get the math straight in head on the ppm's of my nutes . you say that 1ml of 1% of an element will add 2.6455 ppm to my solution . so 1ml x 1% x 2.6455 = 2.6455 .

so lets start with the canna A

canna A 4-0-1 N 4% K2O 1% CO 4.5%

N @ 4% x 1ml x 2.6455 = 10.5 ppm
K2O @ 1% x 1ml x 2.6455 =2.6455 ppm
CO @ 4.5% x 1ml x 2.6455 = 11.9 ppm

so 1 ml of canna A would be 25.044 ppms
& @ 10 ml (high dose ) would be 250.44 ppms

is this correct ??

ok gotta do some math .... be back later .

I want to make sure my flowering nutes aren't to high , i think my transplant & veg are OK .

You're getting the hang of it but you're not there yet.

Remember, K2O is only 83% potassium, the rest is just oxygen. When you are calculating for Potassium ppm you have to multiply the number you get by 0.83 to get the actual amount of K+ in the solution.
Phosphorus is the same way, except it is only 44%. So multiply the number you get from the ppm of P205 by 0.44 to get the actual phosphorus ppm. A 4-9-5 is actually a nearly balanced concentration of NPK, rather than a 1-1-1.

1ml of A should net you about 25ppm but remember, like I said above, that Canna A+B tests higher than it should. I think it said 70% before but that might cause some confusion. It is actually 30% more when in combination, and 70% more for the A. 1ml of A will cause an EC increase of about 0.08, or closer to 40ppm rather than 25ppm. 1ml of A and 1ml of B should net you about 60ppm or an increase of around .12ec. 5ml of A and 5ml of B should add another .6ec to your solution. 10ml would be 1.2ec. Every 1ml of Cal-Mag Plus increase the EC by 0.1 by my measurements.

So, by using just 8ml of A+B with 2ml of Cal-Mag Plus you are looking at 1.2EC, plus whatever your water started with. This is already too much food for my more finicky plants in coco during the first 15 days of flowering, and you're planning on adding more to the mix, which will only drive it higher.

6ml of A and 6ml of B will get you a minimum profile that looks like this:
N: 80ppm
P: 30ppm
K: 50ppm
Ca: 70ppm
Mg: 20ppm

Now, despite this adding up to only 250ppm, you need to increase that number by 30% to compensate for the "unknown" and the measuring variables. Now you're looking at around 330ppm. To translate these numbers into EC I use a x2 conversion, for an increase of .66ec to .72ec (somewhere in there). Add in the 2ml of Cal-Mag and the Rhizotonic, and you're in pretty good shape.

I might have suggested something different earlier but now that I have looked over the numbers I might suggest you run 8ml/gallon at most during Veg and 6ml/gallon at most during flowering for each A+B, if you're going to be using the supplements you are at those same levels. If you notice the plant fading yellow slowly from the bottom up then you can simply increase the amount of A+B in the next feeding and this deficiency will resolve very fast. During flowering it is much easier to over do it then to under do it. Start slow and work up gradually as she asks you for more. Don't hit her too hard too soon with the nutrients, I think I rocked more like 4-5ml of A+B through flowering plus supplements in my best Canna grow.

Give me a few hours and I'll dig up my nutrient calculator from that grow. It is a spreadsheet that will estimate the EC for you. You can also try out cannastats.com. They also have a calculator that you can use to get a rough idea of what you're adding to the reservoir with each feeding. Getting an EC meter changed my ability to grow overnight. Then understanding that a percent is a "part per hundred" so all I had to do was convert the percent into a "part per million" by multiplying by 10,000 to get the ppm in the bottle. After that, all I had to do was take the number of ml of nutrients and divide that by the number of ml in a gallon of water. It's simple stuff that's right in front of your face. Knowledge that you already had but didn't know how to apply it. Over time you'll find insights like this from your own life that will cross over into your growing. It's simple really. Percent to PPM and divide the ML's together, they even list P2O5 right on the label. This is stuff I could have figured out YEARS ago if I just opened my eyes.

So don't over complicate your grow out the gate. Do everything you can to keep it simple!!! Especially as a new grower. Don't stretch yourself too thin by spending all your time dreaming up new recipes. Keep your eyes open for the simple stuff and remember... It's a plant. Just let her grow. In many ways you can compare growing to grilling. Meat+Fire+Salt= delicious. Cannabis+Light+Nutrition= delicious. Don't sit there and flip the meat, poking it with the fork. Just toss that shit on and let it cook. Don't burn it, keep the heat low, and get a nice sear on there before you pull it off.

Another parallel I can make is with nutrition. Light is food to plants in the way we think of food. It provides them with energy. What you're doing when you "feed" your plants with nutrients is to give them vitamins. It's like, drinking a Gatorade to get your electrolytes up, or making sure you get plenty of Calcium as a kid to develop strong bones. If you give your kid one too many Flintstones vitamins every day then elements like zinc and iron can build up in their systems ultimately causing organ failure over time. When a plant is burning up from too high a concentration of nutrients in the solution this is very similar. Tiny little cells are failing all over the plant because you gave her too many damn Centrums!

I always make sure my girl is getting a good dose of food; blue and red spectrum when can manage it, because her favorite restaurant is the sun and I want to get as close to that as possible. Once she's getting the food she needs and her body has the energy to grow then she'll need those vitamins around to help her grow up healthy and strong. If you approach your plants with this same kind of mentality you'll help avoid the thought process of tossing in more elements to make her grow bigger. Doesn't work like that. She grows as big as she grows, and this has far more to do with the energy she has access to and her genetic potential then the amount of Nitrogen in her diet. Hitting a balance of food and nutrition is where I find the happiest plants.

 

[dramamine]

Advising people to use Cannazyme for the PK it contains? Cannazyme is the most important nutrient for buds? Hmmm...

 

[dansbuds]

Remember, K2O is only 83% potassium, the rest is just oxygen. When you are calculating for Potassium ppm you have to multiply the number you get by 0.83 to get the actual amount of K+ in the solution.
Phosphorus is the same way, except it is only 44%. So multiply the number you get from the ppm of P205 by 0.44 to get the actual phosphorus ppm. A 4-9-5 is actually a nearly balanced concentration of NPK, rather than a 1-1-1.

1ml of A should net you about 25ppm but remember, like I said above, that Canna A+B tests higher than it should. I think it said 70% before but that might cause some confusion. It is actually 30% more when in combination, and 70% more for the A. 1ml of A will cause an EC increase of about 0.08, or closer to 40ppm rather than 25ppm. 1ml of A and 1ml of B should net you about 60ppm or an increase of around .12ec. 5ml of A and 5ml of B should add another .6ec to your solution. 10ml would be 1.2ec. Every 1ml of Cal-Mag Plus increase the EC by 0.1 by my measurements.

yeah with the A i got 25.004& the B was 16.04 which is about 40ppm for 1ml .

So, by using just 8ml of A+B with 2ml of Cal-Mag Plus you are looking at 1.2EC, plus whatever your water started with. This is already too much food for my more finicky plants in coco during the first 15 days of flowering, and you're planning on adding more to the mix, which will only drive it higher.

6ml of A and 6ml of B will get you a minimum profile that looks like this:
N: 80ppm
P: 30ppm
K: 50ppm
Ca: 70ppm
Mg: 20ppm

Now, despite this adding up to only 250ppm, you need to increase that number by 30% to compensate for the "unknown" and the measuring variables. Now you're looking at around 330ppm. To translate these numbers into EC I use a x2 conversion, for an increase of .66ec to .72ec (somewhere in there). Add in the 2ml of Cal-Mag and the Rhizotonic, and you're in pretty good shape.

its gonna take some time before this old stoner mind of mne lets this all sink in but i think i'm getting it . just have to read it about 5 times
i will wait to see your spread sheet before i make any adjustments & i'm gonna check out cannastats site now ... maybe i can make my own to follow .

So don't over complicate your grow out the gate. Do everything you can to keep it simple!!! Especially as a new grower. Don't stretch yourself too thin by spending all your time dreaming up new recipes. Keep your eyes open for the simple stuff and remember... It's a plant. Just let her grow. In many ways you can compare growing to grilling. Meat+Fire+Salt= delicious. Cannabis+Light+Nutrition= delicious. Don't sit there and flip the meat, poking it with the fork. Just toss that shit on and let it cook. Don't burn it, keep the heat low, and get a nice sear on there before you pull it off.

will never lose site of that , i do love the KISS methods . just want to know what i'm feeding .

thanx man , be back later .

 

[Snow Crash]

Advising people to use Cannazyme for the PK it contains? Cannazyme is the most important nutrient for buds? Hmmm...

Yeah. I clearly have no idea what I'm talking about...



At 0-2-1 and in use at 10ml per gallon Cannazym takes the ratio of 10ml of A and 10ml of B from 5-4-3 to 5-6-4 (I'm talking ratios, not percentages right now).

As I demonstrated above. A balanced nutrient system, one that contained equal ppm of NPK, would have a label that would read 4-9-5. Thus, by running the additional Cannazym a tremendous impact can be made on the final ratios, but without tipping the balance so far that you're running an excessive amount of Phosphorus.

When running lower levels of nutrients, like 5-6ml of A+B the impact of 10ml of Cannazym is even greater on the final solution profile. I know very few growers who do not utilize some form of PK boost for flowering. Especially Canna users. The increase to the PK levels from this product, or a similar product like Hydroplex or KB dry at very low levels, is just the right kind of change to encourage flower formation.

Just an extra 25ppm of Phosphorus can nearly double the amount used during vegetative growth, so it's not like a ton is required, but that extra little bit can make all the difference. I find this to also be especially true for Magnesium. 10ml of Cannazym adds about 25ppm of Phosphorus off the top of my head, so... it's a pretty big shift from the earlier level for certain but it isn't such a large amount of food at 50 to 60ppm of Phosphorus to be exceeding the needs of the plant. Even in the "Myth of high P" thread 60ppm is considered within the normal range of use. Without some form of change to the nutrient system Canna nutrients couldn't even hit the level of phosphorus that the "Low P Growers" here are using.

As with any element, having too much of it in the solution will not make the plant grow any larger than it should. But failing to have enough will compromise the final product. We all know that the plant's needs shift during flowering to requiring less of some elements and more of others. In an hydroponic system it is important to try and as closely mimic what the plant needs in the solution as you can.

Without some form of PK boost the "two-part" Canna Coco system (I put that in quotes because when always used in equal volumes it is just a one part in two bottles) the grower is stuck with the same nutrient profile start to finish, seed to flower, and even Canna knows that doesn't work. The reason why they suggest using Cannazym at 10ml per gallon right at the transition to flowering isn't because your roots suddenly need enzymes now that the plant is budding. They make the suggestion for the PK and even reformulated the stuff about 2 years ago to accomplish the task of altering the NPK levels that suit a flowering plant. Canna knows it. I know it. And hopefully, now you know it too.

 

[dansbuds]

I know it now too

 

[dansbuds]

hey snow .... one thing we didn't really touch on too much is the canna boost . how important is it & can i get away with not using it or would that be a mistake ? been tryin to find out exactly whats in it with no luck . I see your using the bioboost as a foliar n not really sure about foliar feeding yet so not sure what to do .
any advice ?
thanx dude , you've been an encyclopedia of knowledge for me & i appreciate it greatly

just found this here in another thread .... very informative .

Just FYI, boost is only really used for a couple of weeks during the flowering period. It's an oligosaccharide (carbohydrate) which, when produced naturally by a plant lets it know that it is under stress, so it ramps up sugar production, etc etc etc. It is basically a way to stimulate the stress reaction without stress, which increases fragrance, color, potency, etc. I am quite sure that you'll get better results with the two used in tandem (boost only through the first couple weeks of flowering, molasses throughout, it's very expensive otherwise and not effective). This information came from one of the technical Canna reps in the US, so as long as I did not screw up my explanation, I have no reason to doubt its validity. Apparently it takes them 6 months to brew the stuff in giant vats, which is why it costs so much. The difference between the bioboost and regular is that the regular boost has a few mineral salts which stabilize it and make it work more effectively, but for all intents and purposes it's organic (the regular boost actually costs more).

yeah 35$ more !!!

kinda answered my own question though ..... if i want fat juicy nugs i better cough up the 105 $ for it .

 

[BudMuncher1]

Good info here. I think I'll hit my next round on the first day of 12/12 with a 1/4 tsp KB to help with that budset.

 

[Snow Crash]

Just make sure that's a 1/4tsp per 5 gallons. That KB dry is some very concentrated stuff. Just a little bit is going to go a LONG way.

 

[Snow Crash]

hey snow .... one thing we didn't really touch on too much is the canna boost . how important is it & can i get away with not using it or would that be a mistake ? been tryin to find out exactly whats in it with no luck . I see your using the bioboost as a foliar n not really sure about foliar feeding yet so not sure what to do .
any advice ?
thanx dude , you've been an encyclopedia of knowledge for me & i appreciate it greatly

just found this here in another thread .... very informative .
yeah 35$ more !!!

kinda answered my own question though ..... if i want fat juicy nugs i better cough up the 105 $ for it .

I forgot about my internet crapping out on me earlier today. I had written up a little something about the stuff.

Short version:
Hold off on the intangible "rain forest extracts" and all that other crap until you get the room dialed in. Once you plateau with your nutrient system and you just can't get anything more out of the plants, that is when you start to mess with enhancers like MOAB, Bloombastic, or CannaBoost.

If you really want to try the stuff then I'd suggest a 250ml bottle and to run it on just one plant. If that one plant burned through about 5 gallons per week then at 10ml per gallon you should be able to hit her with it every time for 5 weeks (days 15 to 50). Then you could compare your results Plant versus Plant and decide if an extra $25 or so per plant is worth it.

I have always been of the persuasion that if I pull 5 ounces off a plant using this system, and 4 ounces not using the system (a 20% gain) then it is an obvious choice to make. But if the gains are more subtle, like slightly better flavor, or more like a 5% harvest increase... Then I might look somewhere else.

Ultimately you'll need to try it for yourself to make up your mind on the stuff but I'd really suggest getting the 250ml as a tester before sacking up for the big bottle.

 

[dansbuds]

Ultimately you'll need to try it for yourself to make up your mind on the stuff but I'd really suggest getting the 250ml as a tester before sacking up for the big bottle.

cool . i think i'll hold off if its just a bloom booster . i have enough on my plate with what i've got for now . i readjusted my nute schedule to start low then add if i see probs . & i can allways add the PKB @ 4 or 5 ml per my 5 gallon jug on the 5th week if feel i need something else . thanx dude you've been a great help & I defenatly have more knowledge about nutes than when i started this thread . & if i get confused i have this thread to come back to .

not tyrin to be a PIA but was curious what you came up with on the nute calculator ... itried to figure it out but ... no luck . if you look back i adjusted mine ... let me know what you think ..

thanx man . i know i keep sayin it but you're the best !!!! & i hope the mods see it cuz it has a shitton of great info for everybody doing coco .

 

[BudMuncher1]

Just make sure that's a 1/4tsp per 5 gallons. That KB dry is some very concentrated stuff. Just a little bit is going to go a LONG way.

would you happen to know how many ppm 1/4 tsp KB is?(per gallon) I dont have a meter yet. Thats on my list for next round.

 

[Snow Crash]

I could try to infer a little bit. This is an estimate based on the best information I have at hand. Something as simple as your elevation (compared to sea level) will skew the results a touch, and as I covered above there will inevitably more in the product then is listed. I don't have KB dry myself and I cannot be certain how closely these numbers will match a tested EC of this nutrient at these rates. I use hydroplex instead of KB dry but I can use a little brain power to figure this out for you.

If...
1/4tsp = 1.25 grams
1 gallon = 3780ml
1ml = 1cc
1cc = 1 gram
1 percent = 10,000 parts per million
and... KoolBloom Dry is 2-45-28 in percentages

Then it contains...
20,000ppm of N
198,000ppm of P
232,400ppm of K

At a rate of 1.25 grams [1tsp] per 3780 grams [1gallon] that provides a coefficient [might be the wrong mathematical terminology] of (1.25/3780) 0.0003307.

0.0003307 x 20,000ppm = 6.614ppm Nitrogen
0.0003307 x 198,000ppm = 65.479ppm Phosphorus
0.0003307 x 232,400ppm = 76.855ppm Potassium

Now that's in just 1 gallon with 1/4 tsp. At that rate you'd probably double your Phosphorus PPM (if not triple) and add at least another 25% to your Potassium ppm. A sudden increase like this to your system will require the balancing of other important elements like Nitrogen, Calcium, Sulfur, and Magnesium. Without the balance of all elements things can get nasty in a hurry.

At 1/4tsp per 5 gallons you can divide the 1 gallon concentrations by 5 to get my suggested PK increase from this supplement. Somewhere around 1ppm N, 13ppm P, and 15ppm K. That extra 13ppm of P will be all the difference the reservoir will need and should increase your elemental phosphorus by at least 20%, perhaps more.

13ppm doesn't sound like much more to add, but 20% sure does!

If you compare these numbers to the 0-2-1 Cannazym at 10ml per gallon, or about 25ppm of P and 22ppm of K, you'll see that you could go as high as 1/2tsp per 5 gallons and actually very closely mimic their suggested level. I find that if you're running less then 10ml/gallon of the A+B though then you'd want a smaller change in PK levels (as less is more in those situations).

In conclusion:
General Hydroponics KoolBloom Dry can be used as a replacement for the PK boost acquired from Cannazym at the rate of 1/4tsp per 5 gallons of KBd to offset the use of 6ml of Cannazym per gallon.
The numbers are not exactly the same but the margin of difference is close enough to cause the same effect on the solution ratios regardless of product chosen.
KoolBloom Dry is most definitely less expensive to use per gallon.

 

[dramamine]

So don't over complicate your grow out the gate. Do everything you can to keep it simple!!! quote]


This is worth remembering.... Canna A/B used completely by itself produces healthy plants and nice buds.

 

[dansbuds]

This is worth remembering.... Canna A/B used completely by itself produces healthy plants and nice buds.

I am confident your right about this . this is my first time with coco but not my first grow .
I am very intested in the PK values snow crash has shown me over the last few days . I've allways used a PK boost during my last weeks of flowering but i know coco is different with the elements of calcium magnesium & P & K . I like the fact that i can run small dosages of P & K all during the flowering period with different PK boosts . hydroplex has the extra magnesium needed & i love the effects of the silica . & then just the PK boost for fattening up my buds . as i said this is all very interesting to me .

But i have most allways been a KISS grower . my soil , promix & hempys were all given Maxibloom per lucas with the powdered KB for a finish before the flush . so yeah i can keep it simple but I want to learn all i can about it too . & guys like snow crash are invaluable for this .

thanx again dude !!

i know your gonna get sick of me sayin it but .... its true

 

[dansbuds]

deleted & moved to correct thread .

 

[soaring]

Snow Crash I love the info you are giving out. Absolutely what I needed to hear!

My question is I'm using Canna Substra in pure coco. I also use cal mag plus at a low dose.
Can I use your info in this thread with the substra? I'm using it because I got it 75% off retail and now I have a lot of it to use for the next year.

Thanks

 

[Snow Crash]

You can use the general advice I provided with no problem.
The only grow I've seen with substra went very well, but was in rockwool rather than coco, but I think you should look into other journals that utilize Canna Substra for more specific advice on your given system.

Good luck!