Citric Acid

[spurr]

Something I'm unsure of because of differing applications of the word; does 'chelated' equate even steven to 'ionized' ?

Nope. If we are referring to ions they can be soluble (in solution, ex., not precipitated) or insoluble (not in solution, ex., precipitated). Chelated means soluble ions are 'bonded' to chelating agents (such as fulivc acid or humic acid), thus those ions will stay soluble for longer and will not form insoluble salts as readily as non-chelated ions. Ex., chelated Ca will stay as Ca, not bond with P to form P-Ca, and Fe will stay soluble even at higher pH which normally would make Fe insoluble (fall out of solution).

Insoluble ions are not plant available.

PS. No but think I've figured out that The manufacturers have failed to remove the old link in for the registry for old camera and driver and/or have failed to designate the new ones. They need to redo the software with a windows registry key specific to the new driver. I've told them this but in the interim am formatting my Vista and installing Windows 7 so I have a fresh OS to test the cameras on.

You may want to consider using a virtual machine (VM)*. That way you won't have to re-format your 'host' operating system (OS), you simply install another OS inside the VM, which is installed on the host OS (ex., the Vista and Win 7 you already have installed). Using the VM is just like using a newly re-formatted host OS, that is, the VM OS will not have the host OS camera drivers installed. That should allow you to test the new camera software whilst still keeping the older software on the host OS, and allow to to keep your host OS in its current state.

Here are the basic steps, it may look cumbersome but it's not, it should be quite easy to setup:

1. install VM software on your computer(s).

2. start the VM and install Windows XP, Vista or 7 inside the VM.

3. start the OS inside the VM and install the new camera software on the OS inside the VM.

4. start the camera software, which should then connect to the camera. You may need to add exceptions in the VM for the software to connect to the camera.

5. You can install any program on the OS inside the VM you wish. Any programs you can install on the host OS you can install on the OS inside the VM.
​

* there are various VM's available for Windows, some free and some not. I have not tested all of them on Windows, the non-free may be a better choice as they can be easier to setup, but the free options offer much community support so they too can be easy to setup:

VMware (free 30-day trail): http://www.vmware.com/products/workstation/overview.html

VirtualBox (free; I have used this often on Windows and Ubuntu OS'es): http://www.virtualbox.org/

Windows Virtual PC (from Microsoft, I think this comes pre-installed on Windows 7 Pro and Windows 7 Ultimate): https://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtual-pc/default.aspx

 

[mad librettist]

you guys needs macs...

 

[spurr]

^^^ Nah, Ubuntu (or Kubuntu) or Free-BSD for the win! They are all free and much more secure than Mac or Windows.

 

[mad librettist]

It has to due to concentration. Roots and microbes normally do not 'emit' citric acid in enough quantity to have optimal affect. See data regarding white lupin, IIRC, in terms of high exudation of citric acid. Check out VG's citric acid thread wherein I wrote about that topic a little. White lupin is known for some of the highest exudation of citric acid in the plant Kingdom.

Ex. of this topic in regard to P, Ca, Fe, etc.:

Dinkelaker, B., Romheld, V., Marschner, H. (1989). Citric acid excretion and precipitation of calcium citrate in the rhizosphere of white lupin (Lupinus albus L.). Plant, Cell & Environment, Volume 12, Issue 3, pages 285–292

• note: "proteoid roots" = cluster roots

well my next question is obvious - would it be a good idea to grow some white lupin in my containers? I could dedicate about 4 square feet under an hid light, and cannabis would go in after the lupin is chopped.

the flowers are very pretty, and it would be nice to grow my own cut flowers.

 

[spurr]

well my next question is obvious - would it be a good idea to grow some white lupin in my containers? I could dedicate about 4 square feet under an hid light, and cannabis would go in after the lupin is chopped.

the flowers are very pretty, and it would be nice to grow my own cut flowers.

Wow, interesting idea. Sounds like it's worth a shot.

 

[chefro420]

hey chefro420,

I believe you are referring to ascorbic acid, not citric acid.

Yes , Thanks!

 

[Strapped]

you guys needs macs...

lol, you can set up a VM in a mac or PC for either operating system, thus having both in one.

It's good to have you back spurr. I can't even express to you my thanks for the value of your posts and references to me. So much in this community tends to be founded in heresy. I've learned a lot from your posts alone, always got me reading.

On topic... I plan to use citric acid as well as LK in my upcoming projects and I worry about over-application. I understand manufacturer recommendations for these products can sometimes be overzealous. Has anyone seen negative effects using chelates as recommended? Should microbe teas be applied separate from acid solutions, or are the concentrations used not high enough to be antibiotic?

 

[VerdantGreen]

this paper, kindly uploaded by son_of_a_batch, explores why some plants can handle lime soils (that have low Fe etc) and some cant. its basically down to some plants being able to make root exudation of organic acids (like citric)

https://www.icmag.com/ic/attachment.php?attachmentid=109253&d=1301255498

my tapwater is pH 8-9 so i have to reduce that pH - anyone who says citric acid is going to harm your grow should take a look in my gallery