Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[GreenThumb14]

Global ballast is 130 khz

So the bulbs they are using are probably OK to be used on any typical electronic ballast? Like a Lumatek?

As far as I see it frequency is frequency... I don't see how they could run high freq but make it so somehow it doesn't resonate the bulb to death. Am I wrong?

My thought on it is that the new CDMs are OK with high freq.

 

[fungzyme]

S
As far as I see it frequency is frequency... I don't see how they could run high freq but make it so somehow it doesn't resonate the bulb to death. Am I wrong?

Doesn't the wave shape have something to do with it? Versus your standard sinewave? I thought I read something about that somewhere, but have no idea where (or if I even understood what I was reading...)

EDIT:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/logi...ore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=912439

and

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/arti...r=1437592&contentType=Conference+Publications

 

[Medenyx]

Have you looked into quartz halogen? I think that they are normally warmer than that, but I've never really pursued the variants.

*edit* I found this tidbit - "all incandescent and halogen light bulbs, by definition, have a CRI close to 100. They are excellent at rendering color. However, except for some halogen bulbs, most incandescents produce a warm 2800K color temperature. The only way to achieve the bluish white appearance of daylight with incandescent bulbs is to use bulbs coated with neodymium. However, these bulbs have a CRI much lower than 90. They are not good for accurate color rendering across the spectrum."

Well, ... , I am actually using one now(!)
One of them. First I used a 650W, and now I am using a 800W quartz halogen lamp. ... And ... I am NOT satisfied @ all!
Several reasons:
- NOT a point-source light!!! (... smaller the arc, better and clearer the picture is ...)
- Small amount of (final-output) lumens (LCD is holding up almost 80% of light, not to mention the other components : lenses, glass, triplet, ... )
- Color of the white (way, way under 2500K, ... really ...), not to mention:
- The operational hours of lamps (declared higher, but mostly, under a 100 h), ...

BTW : The other way, to achieve the bluish white appearance of daylight, with incandescent bulbs (or a quartz halogen) is to use a special (blueish) tempered glass, ... , which I used as a (must) UV protection for (a very sensitive) LCD ...
Due, to a very reduced 'lumens', now, I am using a thinner (2mm) clear tempered glass, instead of the blue one. This way, the picture is 'brighter', despite the too much warmness.

BTW2 : I just tested a LED lamp source, and I was disappointed in more than one aspect (in it), ... , not even worth to mention all of them, ... , LED is possibly a future, but a distant one, ... , as a projector light source, I mean.
Sad, ... , sad fact.

So, as it seems, I am forced to stay at Ceramic Metal Halide kind, ...
... if there is no better at the scene. Is there?

 

[Greenheart]

Quartz Halogen when supplemented to reduce stretch works pretty well. Alot of watts and alot of heat but I did notice quicker bloom times and some pretty stoney smoke. Not ideal for everyone and definitely more economical in winter when the extra heat will cut down on the overall monthly bills but if it is all you got then roll with it.

CMH is a great spectrum. I haven't taken a picture of it in my diy spectrometer like the other lights in my album but it is right up there with halogen in quality of light color imo. Only it utilizes more of the electricity to produce spectral output in the 400-700 nm range than the halogen which produces it in the higher reds and heat ranges. Though I am a fan of quartz halogen. Halogen lighting spectra it is not as efficient as cmh/cdm unless you are able to utilize the heat aspect.

some light charts and spectral pics https://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=26225

Here is the spectra of that particular room taken off of the relfected surface of the door panel while opened. Notice the brighter verticle lines. These are all Mercury spectrums from the various floros. The farthest one to the left is comming from the mercury vapor bulb. The photo in my avatar is of a halogen spectra. The CMH like the halogen has a full spectrum without the gaps of the floros.

 

[Fonzarelli]

View Image

We just got one of these bulbs in today.

What's the model number for this lamp and where did you buy it from? What kind of ballast are you running it on because I'm looking into running the new lamps also.
thanx

 

[GreenThumb14]

Harvested an 11" autoflower AK47 today... Grown under CMH. Check my sig for pics/results.

 

[Fonzarelli]

Harvested an 11" autoflower AK47 today... Grown under CMH. Check my sig for pics/results.

Have you tried flowering under your 860w allstart lamp yet?

 

[Fonzarelli]

I have the Philips 860w allstart (CDM860/V/O/4K/EA BT37 AllStart). It looks exactly like the one pictured in the dnalightingsolutions website.

It fires on my 1000W sunlight supply ballast, at the HPS setting. I don't know why.

If someone can package it so that it doesn't break, it may be worth the extra $10-15 bucks. Right now, if you order from b*u*l*bs.com, they pack it well, but the bulb comes in a flimsy cardboard "case".

I ordered two, one broke on delivery.

Oh, I meant this guy. Have you flowered under your 860w yet?

 

[Fonzarelli]

That was supposed to be the case with the CMH retrofit lamps, and why they couldn't be run on electronic ballasts. Apparently there is a difference in the 315w CDM lamp construction, because all of the ballasts that I've seen so far that are compatible with that lamp are electronic. I haven't been able to find what frequency the GEL ballast actually puts out, but all of the descriptions say "high frequency". I think Azeo posted something about his discussion with GEL a few pages back that goes into why their control method is easier on the lamp.

Interesting. When I talked to the DNA lighting guy he said that you could ONLY use their ballasts. Well that is an outright lie right there Lmao.

He told me that the 900w lamp operated on super high frequencies so why couldn't you just use a Galaxy E-Ballast or something?

I'm definitely curious about the new CDMs because I have been running MasterColor CMH 400w's for awhile and they rock. I've compared the spectral outputs of both and it looks like Philips new cmh lamps put out more deep red.

When you look at DNA lightings graphs it shows that they put out more red as well. Actually their graph does look like it puts out a lot more deep red than the 860w allstart so it makes me wonder. Is the graph glorified a bit and the lamps are the same?

I tend to believe that they are just using Philips allstart lamp and slapping their own label on it. That's what everyone in the industry does, even the aquarium guys. All the lamps are based on the same technology.

These guys didn't just "come together" and create a new lamp, it's one that's already on the market and they are putting their label on it for the horti industry.

 

[Fonzarelli]

Rrog, I think that the 315w lamps are a different animal than the standard CMH. As you can see in the below SPD charts, there is substantially less blue than in the Retro-White lamps. The Agro version looks really good to me, but I have some 930's to try first...if it turns out that more red will work better, I will supplement that portion of the spectrum with some 660nm leds.


"Standard" CMH Retro-White -
View Image


315w 930 -
View Image


315w "Agro" -
View Image

I can't see the SPD graphs you posted. Could you please re-post them? I can't find a SPD for the 315w AGRO lamp anywhere!

 

[Fonzarelli]

I just don't see how you would get consistent and homogeneous light from mixing led and HPS.

What do you mean by this? I have a grow going right now that I just started using 1000w HPS and 300w of red/blue led.

 

[GreenThumb14]

I tend to believe that they are just using Philips allstart lamp and slapping their own label on it. That's what everyone in the industry does, even the aquarium guys. All the lamps are based on the same technology.

These guys didn't just "come together" and create a new lamp, it's one that's already on the market and they are putting their label on it for the horti industry.

Ya, unless they have a few million sitting around and a couple scientists and engineers along with a production facility, etc.

It's the Philips lamp. All they did was get a ballast for it. Apparently the new CDMs work fine on high freq. If I had the extra cash I would buy the 315w with mogul base and try it on a 400w digital and see what happens lol.

I'm running a 330w allstart cdm on a 400w mh mag ballast and according to the Kill-A-Watt meter the total power draw is only 400w. The bulb is a retro-fit for 400w systems to use less power. Makes me wonder how they do it and how a 315w would respond in a 400w ballast.

** Still curious about the 860w cdm on a 1000w AN Baddass low freq. ballast...

 

[rives]

I can't see the SPD graphs you posted. Could you please re-post them? I can't find a SPD for the 315w AGRO lamp anywhere!

Fixed. Take a look at the greenbeamslighting.com site, they have the graphs and a bunch more information up.

 

[Azeotrope]

The GEL folks wouldn't tell me exactly what frequency, but he did mention that it is extremely high similar to what is manufactured for quartz halide and HPS.

The difference is 2fold.

Wave form - Ie square or quazi square (more trapazoidal)

Resonance - The GEL ballast has an active resonance sensing capacity and can find an operating frequency that creates little to no resonance in the arc tube assembly. The ballast finds and maintains this actively while in use. This is the critical gain that has been made in recent years.

Previous CMH e-ballasts were just putting out 77hz or 144hz/166hz square wave. They had found several frequencies (relatively low) that work on most bulbs. I had a 150w metrolight that you could watch arc roll in certain philips cmh bulbs, but not others.......

 

[GreenThumb14]

The GEL folks wouldn't tell me exactly what frequency, but he did mention that it is extremely high similar to what is manufactured for quartz halide and HPS.

The difference is 2fold.

Wave form - Ie square or quazi square (more trapazoidal)

Resonance - The GEL ballast has an active resonance sensing capacity and can find an operating frequency that creates little to no resonance in the arc tube assembly. The ballast finds and maintains this actively while in use. This is the critical gain that has been made in recent years.

Previous CMH e-ballasts were just putting out 77hz or 144hz/166hz square wave. They had found several frequencies (relatively low) that work on most bulbs. I had a 150w metrolight that you could watch arc roll in certain philips cmh bulbs, but not others.......

So you think it's only a matter of time until more of these ballasts hit the market? I'd like to see the price drop.

 

[greenwithenvy]

What's the model number for this lamp and where did you buy it from? What kind of ballast are you running it on because I'm looking into running the new lamps also.
thanx

No model numbers. It was sent to me from the owner of DNA. We don't have the ballasts yet.

 

[Medenyx]

I don't have any idea what might be best for a projector bulb, but maybe one of the 315w philips bulbs might be worth looking at:

http://www.ecat.lighting.philips.co...olor-cdm-t-elite-med-wattage/928601164802_na/

This one has 35k lumens (initial) and a 4200k color temp.
You can't just use a regular digital ballast however - there are electronic ballasts specifically for these bulbs. The 'older' generation
CMH bulbs (250w and 400w) run on a magnetic hps ballast.

Might be worth a try - if it doesn't work out, you can always grow weed with it...

Again me, struggling, ...
But this time, there is a 'ballast' issue.

That is all right, that the 'older' generation of CMH bulbs (250w and 400w) run on a magnetic hps ballasts, but where to find the "electronic ballasts specifically for these bulbs" aka the recommended newer generation that matches the Philips MasterColor CDM-T Elite 315W*/942 T9 U?
*(315W!?)

 

[Medenyx]

Besides this[ http://www.lighting.philips.com/pwc...literature/downloads/elite_design_guidev7.pdf ], ...

 

[pHive.8]

Besides this[ http://www.lighting.philips.com/pwc...literature/downloads/elite_design_guidev7.pdf ], ...

that's the old ballast (made by advance)
this is the current (and only Philips 315w gear)

http://www.ecat.lighting.philips.com/l/oem/hid-systems/electronic-drivers-outdoor/primavision-for-cdm-elite-mw/913700639480_eu/

 

[rives]

that's the old ballast (made by advance)
this is the current (and only Philips 315w gear)

http://www.ecat.lighting.philips.co...primavision-for-cdm-elite-mw/913700639480_eu/

That's interesting, I've never seen that ballast before. Has anyone seen one in the flesh? The product leaflet is dated January 31, 2013. The spec on the voltage has dropped from 277v to 240v - is that a European-market version one by any chance? It seems odd that Philips would cut out the U.S. commercial-lighting segment that uses 277.

I don't think that I've never seen a Philips ballast that didn't have the "Advance" name on it also.