Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[simba]

FreedomFGHTR, im not starting noda. just need to make sure all understand

ya, i should point out on there High pressure metal halide page..
Most those are CMH LOL being called High Pressure Metal Halide (although partially true) there trying to make a new name for there brand of lamps..and thats Not for customers benefit.. if it where they would freely have true info like adv tech or other cmh promoters..not vague info

there 25 watt lamp is actually a philips a CDMI 3,000K lamp integrated par lamp and its SPD IS HORRID FOR SEEDLINGS and sun pulse say its good for seedlings..LMFAO>>
(i dont promote the philips cmh 3k for any grower, unless the situation requires it and haven't had one of those)

there other lamps are just wrong (none of them are Protected. Philips 4k are protected from 50-400 watt..

no CMH can not be designed to operate on high freq ballasts
the only UL listed Digital/Electronic Ballast for CMH is The GE Ultramax ballast..
any HPS magnetic core ballast will run the HPS Retro White Bulbs 250 or 400 versions
(mag core ballasts are 50-60hz and typical digi/elec ballasts are 440hz+, cmh fails arc tube sustainability at 270hz)

CMH cant run on any thing over 270Hz thats science fact..
no mater what you do to the bulb..


again a 250 cmh no matter if called cmh or HPMH. requires Protection from arc tube. Only philips has this.. Guys. these other companies with half correct info and fibs in there statements and Not telling you who really makes the lamps or Real specs you should see fast they bad.. not in it for your benefit..

 

[FreedomFGHTR]

no CMH can not be designed to operate on high freq ballasts
and only one UL listed Ballast that can do cmh at 250-400 watt and that is the GE ultra max..

So you are saying that a 400w Phillips CHM bulb won't work on my xtrasun 400w ballast which is UL listed?

 

[simba]

No,
i edited above..
any HPS magnetic core ballast will run the HPS Retro White Bulbs 250 or 400 versions
the only UL listed Digital/Electronic Ballast for CMH is The GE Ultramax ballast..
(mag core ballasts are 50-60hz and typical digi/elec ballasts are 440hz+, cmh fails arc tube sustainability at 270hz)
None of the Horti Dig/elec ballasts are ul Listed..
lumetek uk website says if your ballast starts leaking unplug and move to cooler location WTF>> uhm if it leaks once it over heated and Life is Severly Shortened.
Think of it this way
when you put a stereo or amp in your car u put in a cap cause the amp needs power on demand.. and same thing in digi/elec ballasts there physical size limits the size of the caps.. and other parts.. Open a advance brand digi ballast and a horticuluture version and you will see the horti ones are chinsy and dont have enough reserve when the Voltage in drops.

 

[FreedomFGHTR]

ok cool I was scared there for a second. And yeah I know about the Lumatek issues. And having something that uses so much juice yet isn't UL listed is kind of frightening.

 

[Hydrostatic]

simba,

In your opinion, would it be possible to run 2 400W Phillips CMH lamps off of 1 Standard HPS magnetic ballast? In an overclocked type fashion?

 

[Guest]

Question For Simba

Question For Simba

No,
i edited above..
any HPS magnetic core ballast will run the HPS Retro White Bulbs 250 or 400 versions
the only UL listed Digital/Electronic Ballast for CMH is The GE Ultramax ballast..
(mag core ballasts are 50-60hz and typical digi/elec ballasts are 440hz+, cmh fails arc tube sustainability at 270hz)
None of the Horti Dig/elec ballasts are ul Listed..
lumetek uk website says if your ballast starts leaking unplug and move to cooler location WTF>> uhm if it leaks once it over heated and Life is Severly Shortened.
Think of it this way
when you put a stereo or amp in your car u put in a cap cause the amp needs power on demand.. and same thing in digi/elec ballasts there physical size limits the size of the caps.. and other parts.. Open a advance brand digi ballast and a horticuluture version and you will see the horti ones are chinsy and dont have enough reserve when the Voltage in drops.

Hey simba, was wondering if these new Quantums were capable of running the CMH bulbs ?
http://www.growshop.com/product-news/reviews/quantum-digital-ballast-review.html


Big Thx, LBM

 

[Pinball Wizard]

Hey simba, was wondering if these new Quantums were capable of running the CMH bulbs ?
http://www.growshop.com/product-news/reviews/quantum-digital-ballast-review.html


Big Thx, LBM

...more... Made in China... crap........

Simba...it says...it's UL listed?

 

[duddits]

So how long do you guys go before changing your CMH? I have a 400 that does 12/12 duties and a 250 that handles the 20/4 shift. When should I think about new bulbs??

 

[river rat01]

ok, seatle hydroponics recommends that you use 4 different spectrums for one plant cycle for optimum growth. http://www.hydro-techn.com/

cutting/rooting: 4K
rapid vegetative: 6.5K
last week of veg: 4K
most of bloom: 3K
last week of bloom: 10K\par

thats gonna cost a lot of money!

what ONE spectrum would be sufficiant for all stages of growth?

this may have been asked already but im not reading 158 pages to find it!

 

[simba]

HyrdoStatic,
No the official answer is NO.. you cant use one ballast on 2 bulbs.. you can however run 2 ballast per bulb (Overpowering bulb by x wattag)
You cant use a larger ballast and dim it down the Starting pulse and other things will over do it..
either way not recommended..

LOL the Q ballast.. While they are an improvement it still wont run a CMH (electronic cmh ballasts are made Primary for CMH lamps,
MH and HPS lamps would rather have a Higher freq than CMH to run optimality..
i still say if you want electronic ballast without Concern of failure or any thing else and USing only HPS or MH id get a Advance, GE, VS, sylvania E ballast
as far as ul can anyone get the UL listing number so we can confirm this..

but in the long run a magnetic core ballast with minor modification will run cooler than any current Eballast and provide alot cheaper overal cost over life (unless 10+ ballasts, then a eballast is starting to be Ok)

Dudits, Sorry bro been slammed.. but so good, for the all of us>>>>>>
id say on flower on a 400 if flowering all year 365x12 1 year for comercial growers and 1.5 years for consumers.. and after that start using the light for Veging for 1-2 years depending...
i could say every 6 months but really not needed..
(this is not based of testing rather what i seen while still providing everyone with good results)

the only companies recomending many K ratings are companies that want more money from you..
K is so bogus. it aint funny.. i can show you 2 spds same Kelvin rating yet the SPD output is way different..
Bad but good example t5ho 4K spd is way different than 4k cmh the cmh is smooth on uphil to red.. the 55 is spikey at all ranges.. nothing like cmh..
simular in HID.. look ya can find a 4k mh but its spd is spikey to nothing like cmh..

ya in a perfect world different Colors during different times of grow would be optimal.. however threw actuall users reporting back to me.(our testers) using all lamps out there in different combo nations have all come back to overall cmh by itself is cheaper and provideds more uniform results at alot lower costs..
that company also recommends a Integrated Philips par lamp for veg seedling Ya right.. its got like no blue and the reflector is CRAP>. its for throw so at height there would be less energy than a t5ho 5k for the plants..
in short it comes down to profiting off customers for these other horti companies.. i dont know why they allways have to try to make more.. just promote the current best and make your $$ off QTY.. selling few crapy bulbs at high prices in the end is not good for the world.. (growers out there0

 

[2buds]

Still hoping on that 1k cmh.

 

[Gardengineer]

Simba, I am new to ICmag, but am on several other forums and was brought here by ricardo for your knowledge on the CMH bulbs.

I am very interested in these bulbs and after reading a good amount of this forum, I am fairly convinced the 400w CMH Philips are the ones to use. However, I talked to a grow shop guy, who is growing also, who says he uses the SunPulse 1000w PSMH bulbs on the Quantum ballasts and is getting better results with them than anything else he's ever used... NOW... I know he is a grow shop guy and probably will tell you anything to sell the product. He had me convinced to go with the single 1000w PSMH until I was directed to this thread, which sounds to me that dual, or even triple 400w Philips Mastercolor Retro-White bulbs (4K) are the way to go. Am I way off here, sounds like the Philips bulb gives off a better amount of good useable light for photosynthesis to me. Is that correct?

All in all, I am about to purchase a new setup and want to make sure its right, what I plan on doing, based on mainly the info I've read here is...

2 - Xtrasun Mag. 400w Switchable ballasts
1 - Xtrasun 6" air cooled hood
1 - Philips Retro-White Horiz. bulb for the hood
1 - Philips Retro-White Vert. bulb to hang between the plants
1 - 400W Agrosun Gold Halide bulb to supplement in flowering

Here are links to each

Ballasts - http://www.hydrofarm.com/pb_detail.php?itemid=7624
Hood - http://www.hydrofarm.com/pb_detail.php?itemid=4173
Agrosun Bulb - http://www.hydrofarm.com/pb_detail.php?itemid=1573

Obviously, you know about the CMH bulbs already. Now, is it worth getting the gold halide and change out one of the CMH to the gold halide for flowering, or should I go with say a... Hortilux HPS enhanced spectrum 400w? Will the ballasts I have selected work properly with the CMH bulbs from Philips, I am assuming they will being magnetic, but I want to make sure.

Here is the Hortilux HPS ES bulb also... http://www.hydrofarm.com/pb_detail.php?itemid=1540

OR... instead of the Eye Hort. or Gold Halide bulb, just use a say... 3K CMH Philips bulb?

Please help me get setup right. Thanks.

 

[DeJa]

WElcome gardengineer

I am also from other forums and am very must interested in dual spectrum growing.



The question is does the GOLD put out more UVB than the standard Ceramic metal halide bulbs...

I have talked to a lot of people and read about 1000 grow logs and comparative grow log.

Currently I am following a comparative grow log which consists of two identical setups

1 on 3kw of EYE HORTILUX HPS

the second setup is on 3kw of HPS/MH BULBS

I am literally pissing myself waiting for this thread to reach its conclusion



My setups I am trying to decide between are as follows

1. HPS + MH lumatek dual 600 digi ballast

2. HPS + CMH [600 EYE + 400 CMH]

3. 1kw HPS/MH bulb

 

[ThinkGREEN]

(i dont promote the philips cmh 3k for any grower, unless the situation requires it and haven't had one of those)

hi,

I`ve been testing the 150W CDM-TD (830 & 942) and I have to say,
it`s very impressing what only 150W can do...



by the way...
what do you think about the 210W & 315W Mastercolour CDM-MW Elite?
i just can`t wait until its on the market...

http://www.lighting.philips.com/us_...cdm_elite_medium/mastercolor_cdm_elite_mw.pdf

 

[simba]

the super long version shortened. .
selling a customer 1 kw bulb and ballast is a great start. .they will have to come back for heat parts Fans controllers etc..
bulbs are about 40-50 buck profit just them..

2 400 cmhs would be same yield impho as a single 1kw..
(would have to change grow from Bush's with the big lamp to mini xmas trees with the cmh)
ya the plants directly under the 1kw will be big but the edges will be lanky and ucky.. with allot less yield than close plants..
the inverse square law of light proves that on its own..
you can start off with less power and have same results if you have the light from many source thus not having to travel from one end the room to the other from one lamp..
That is so shortened so please don't nick apart.

these other lamps are just trying to get in on some new marketing hype no real spds to back there lamps up.. that alone says issues... HPMH those cos just marketing games..
ill never use a 1kw unless i need heat.. LOL>

think ya the 150s awesome.. a micro cab using a 150 hps can use a 100 cmh with same results (spd is where that comes from HPS low wattage are YELLOW.. )
*(my testers favored using 4k alone)
the elites we have tested and don't care for..
philips has a new cmh SPD in those family's coming eventually.. so the new 400 in a year will be 300 watts..

 

[Headcase]

What's up everybody. I was just starting a new grow in my 250 hps scrog cab, and then I stumbled across this thread. Read through it all in a day and a half (I'm dedicated) and I was sold! Bought my bulb, which will be here really soon! I'm very excited to see what this baby can do.

Simba, you're the man, AZ too.

Freezerboy, you're my hero man. If you have any advice for me as far as scrogging goes, i'd love to hear it!
The link in my sig is my grow diary, so if anyone reading this thread wants to see what a CMH does from start to finish, stick around!

Cheers,
-Case

 

[ThinkGREEN]

think ya the 150s awesome..

no offense, but was that a question?

the elites we have tested and don't care for..

To be honest, I just find the 210W & 315W Mastercolour CDM-MW Elite very interesting.
...I believe it has(or will have) a way better syn/Watt then the "standard" CMH / CDM / HCI.
I would love to test them...

a micro cab using a 150 hps can use a 100 cmh with same results

hhmmmm...., I think the 100W CMH is a waste of money...but the combination sounds interesting.

If you`re interested, I can keep you updated with my progress.
With only one 150W CDM-TD(830), I´m expecting to have almost the g/W ratio as with a 250 HPS.
for me, that`s already an improvement over the HPS.
of course you can`t expect x-mas trees... but with LST and little love you can expect a bigger ratio...

my next test will be 2x 150 CDM-TD (830) compared to a 400W SON-T HPS.. with the same strains, running together side by side.

by the way...
I want to thank you for all the input you have put in this thread.. big fat respect out to you!

greetz
ThinkGREEN

 

[simba]

TG,
when i said " think ya the 150s awesome.." it meant
ThinkGreen, ya the 150 CMH are awesome for micro grows.

on the TD lamps, you make a sheild.. those lamps arent protected..
ill try to find a pic of one that popped on me..

as far as Mastercolour CDM-MW Elite there spd is not optimal for horti..
Adv Tech is already in supply mode to Commercial customers..
(notice there High LPW thats cause they put out more green yellow energy than the current MasterColors 4k's) (now that statement is only ment for the elite's)


ya the 150 hps to 100 watt cmh comparison was to show you could use less watts.. (like your current show)

ya do keep us posted..

 

[Warpainted]

I'll post pictures of my loaf pan ballast next week. That is, if I don't electrocute myself.

Speaking of loaf pan ballast, I can connect an AC muffin fan in to the + and - wires along with the ballast + and - right? To keep the fan's wiring internal.

 

[smokesalot420]

I am also interested in duel spectrum growing..... I was using a 400WHPS and since I have moved and we got a larger area, I am going to be using 2 additional CMH bulbs to supplement my grow. I plan on hanging the 2 CMH bulbs vertically on each side of my HPS which is in a hood/reflector in the middle of the 2 CMH's.

I have received one of my bulbs and ballasts and am waiting on the other. What do yall think about having the 2 vertical CMH's around the 400W HPS in the middle in a
4ft x 8ft x 6.5 ft tent? Would anyone suggest getting 2 HPS's and 1 CMH or did I make the right call?

At least if I find I would rather the 2 HPS and 1 CMH I could use the same ballast!

Thanks, I will start a new grow diary soon with my new set-up, and happy growing!