Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[simba]

these arent mine (for obv reasons i cant post good pics) but shows what u want and dont want..

first is 2 examples of what you want..
first is for 1-4 plants Mainly however if you can get 10 of them to do that Great..

this is ultimiate for Comercial growers.. (but the lights would be 1foot off tops if that.)

this is what you dont want LOL>> best example of what u dont want.. and why if u veg to long u can get.. lagy..
in reality you wont get this laggy but shows waste and since we can go close cuase less heat throw we want Colas starting at the lowest point.. (so we get mass useable power)

 

[Guest]

gramsci.antonio-

I am currently doing a comparison grow with CMH. Two 4 foot flood and drain tables with 5 clones in each one. Someone said that the 400w CMH will do better than a 600w HPD. So one table is 400w CMH and the other is 400w MH for veg and will have 600w HPS for flower. I started this comparison to satisfy my own curiosity. And after seeing how so many people are just looking for something to criticize and are looking to make negative conclusions, I am not sure I want to share my findings. I don't need a bunch of drama.

If your comparing a 400w to a 600w... why don't you veg/flower with the 600 and tell us which one yields more..

 

[simba]

because that would be out rite unfair for his goal..i think he is trying to match the spd best that he can..
(i think we all can agree that would give CMH the upper hand as the other would be vegging under red only and we all know even using MH bulbs they make a huge dif.. in end result..
Basically showing the mh/hps combo users the strengths of one bulb.. Etc......

i would say go 400 against 400 but im confident in the quality and end result with cmh.. and his tests..

 

[NoSayHombre]

"i would say go 400 against 400 but im confident in the quality and end result with cmh.. and his tests"

Funny you should suggest that, simba, cause that is what I decided to do at the last minute. Straight 400 vs. 400. I'll be finished in a couple of months.

 

[guineapig]

This thread is awesome.....simba i really appreciate all of your information!!!!

Once i saw the phillips mastercolor 4K spectral graph, i immediately wanted more information on it......these seem like the best choice for ceramic metal halide bulbs, am i right?

Simba, let's say it is a perfect world where money is not a limiting factor.....in that case, which bulbs from which companies would you choose? Please list companies and bulb types and wattages (including the additional UV lamp used mid-way through flowering to induce swelling of trichomes).....

Have you gone strictly CMH bulb and are not even using HPS anymore?

Thank you kindly for everything....

kind regards from guineapig

 

[Siddartha]

Man, these bulbs seem like the bee's knees! I'm sold! Never done this before (grown), but I'll start with one of these suckers.

Do you all think a 250w in a rubber-maid w/ either a plexi-glass shield (ala Red_Greenery) or a cooltube would be cool enough? If that's too hot I could go down to the 150w, I mean it's my first time, not my last, muahahahaha!!!

I'll cool if with a 6" vortex on a speed controller turned waaaaaay down. I hope that won't be too loud, may have to go with the 4" or a Stanley instead.

Any suggestions? (Kinda ramblin, you know how it is

 

[tuna]

I have a separate thread for this but this is a CMH-specific question so I'll pose it here to try to get some knowledge from the CMH experts that are reading this thread:

I'm building a grow in a loft that is only 43" high. Assuming I use the bottom 10" for my DWC table, and then assuming 2" are lost for whatever chains or devices I use to hang the reflector, that leaves 31" for the reflector, plants, and space in-between. I have found the reflectors I'm looking at to be generally 6" to 7" high. So is that 25" max enough space to grow big buds? How far away from the plants can I have the light? I could definitely use a cooltube, but from what I read in this thread, since the CMH bulbs already have a glass shield around them, adding a second layer of light inbetween would be too much loss to efficiency. True?

If it is recommended for my situation that I use 400w CMH bulbs in cooltubes, how many inches away from the canopy could I hang the light?

 

[MPL]

This is the ballast I ended up buying. With shipping it was only $73.90. I checked local electrical supply houses and the best I could find for 400w was $120 or so. Lots of good feedback on HTG Supply, in fact, 100% over the past 3+ years, which is excellent.

Now to order my vertical 400w CMH.

 

[Pirate138]

This is the ballast I ended up buying. With shipping it was only $73.90. I checked local electrical supply houses and the best I could find for 400w was $120 or so. Lots of good feedback on HTG Supply, in fact, 100% over the past 3+ years, which is excellent.

Now to order my vertical 400w CMH.

um wouldnt you want a horizontal bulb? vertical is like a spot light.

 

[Pirate138]

simba are you saying we shud veg under a MH or can we veg and flower under a CMH?

these arent mine (for obv reasons i cant post good pics) but shows what u want and dont want..

first is 2 examples of what you want..
first is for 1-4 plants Mainly however if you can get 10 of them to do that Great..

this is ultimiate for Comercial growers.. (but the lights would be 1foot off tops if that.)

this is what you dont want LOL>> best example of what u dont want.. and why if u veg to long u can get.. lagy..
in reality you wont get this laggy but shows waste and since we can go close cuase less heat throw we want Colas starting at the lowest point.. (so we get mass useable power)

 

[simba]

guineapig, Many thanks..

ya the spd ROCKS.. and unlike the specialty bulbs its not skewed in one way or another. (eye blue they show you the 400 spd cause its the best outa there 250-1000 and there 1kw one sucks)

as far as money is no object (adv tech would be charging $90 for these like hhhydro)
in all honesty though..
RF CMH (soon, and real. however they are Going for Projector market first)
Philips CMH 4K (the ones we on)
EYE BLUE 400 (400 only) (supplemented with 250 HPS, that bulb a White-Son)
400 watt Ceramalux not CMH (in test, but showing promise)
Philips son-t plus (actually dirt cheap in china there Street lamps there LMFAO)
(the problem with specialty hps lamps is they have yellow added which adds the Lumens we all fell for (before we knew what we know now)
some others id have to check for the exact PN.

ya i have personally converted i buy my cmhs and have several Freebie Specialty hps laying around.

also like AZ in my work i promote cmh over hps and allot more markup on specialty HPS..than cmh (aka hps is the money maker, cmh not for the sale profit and how often they relamp LOL)

as far as uv lamps if using hps ya add uvb via Reptial uvb lamps depending on grow sized linear or cfl with Good Reflector any 10.00 is good (use a few hours a day till you find the right amount, cause you can over do it, and pop that Cherry (over fill the sack)wallmart has a uvb in the fish section.. for 15 not bad.. havent used it yet. but with cmh no need to add uvb.. its perfect in every way..they eye blue ya it dumps uvb to but its spd life price etc sucks.. (i wouldnt dog it so much but that price vs cmh)

unfort i haven't found any other company at the moment with the spd and specs and safety as philips lineup.. (few working on new cmh lamps with options.. im hoping hps retro in there..)


Sid,
no Plexiglas just use a piece of Regular glass (get 1/4") (just for added streangth) and your golden..

doesn't take much to cool them but decent..
pics
400 cmh Horizontal it is 8"-9" (depending on the pot size Obv) from top of net pot, not top of plants and the cmh is fine hps no way even with fan directly on plant and light (pics below my txt reply)

bulb tip is cool to touch about 2"in.. Dont try this at home well not my fault if u fckup..
(with airflow on bulb and plants (same fan) (shows easy to remove heat)

rubermaid and 250 u might have a bit of overkill going on there..(i dont like plastic)
i really think at least in smaller setups 20-150 (some 250 setups) you can use a lower wattage cmh than hps and achive same results. Mainly cause you can just put the light dam near on the top of the plants and loose not light energy and cooling is easy

i say go with a 150 cmh MHP (protected) and a diy air cooled reflector and your GOLDEN>> in that setup. great to get your feet wet, and no real concern like higher wattage and heat.. also great veg only lamp when you go biger that way you can have a mommy and some babies..
MHC150/U/MP/4K/ALTO

sup tuna LOL had to L sorry..
nah totaly cool helps others in your predicament..height
ya forget the concern about adding extra glass its not a big deal for us.. its more of a concern for standard hps because they have so lil of whats blocked to begin with

no cool tubes they suck a$$ IMPHO>> total waste of 80% emited energy.. and again not needed for heat like hps..
a simple box type reflector and pref aircooled in that area and some airflow and you can go prety dam close to plants.. (loft is that hot in summer)
your basicly same as the pic i have above of garage.. but imagin lights right above plants.. id almost say 250s instead of 400s.. if it gets hot during summer thats short as hell..
and go strait from clone (showing roots) to 12/12 to keep them short.. dont let them veg really and it wont allow manay colas but fat lil Donkey dkies.. like above.. mini xmas tree forest..
really though forget DWC PITA and waste of water and HEAVY..
Go Bcuzz Bounce Coco or Higromite Ebbflow (both easier)(higromite will also Force them to stay short) also make sure you got some short pupies like k2 or somtin..
many nirvana to choose from..

Mpl nice find.. 400 bigger than ur orig plan, not for same style setup unless alot larger (oh ya Nutes to.. shhh)
MPL get a horizontal.. its way easier for first grow, i only really like them with many lamps hanging like that guy with the garage has done in other grows.. like when you grwoing fewer but Bush style (not most growers style)

a par lamp is the spot lamps AKA Flood lamps..
vertical and horizontal is just the way the bulb is..
vertical goes up and down.. and horizontal goes across..
when you are standing up you are vertical, when you are laying down you are horizontal.

you veg under cmh and flower under cmh.. no need for mh or hps
i was saying why i assumed he chose mh for veg and hps for flower so that it would at least have a fighting chance compared to the plant under CMH From Seedling to Harvest.. (veg-flower)
because someone asked why he didn't go straight hps vs cmh..

 

[Siddartha]

Thanks for the response! I wouldn't be opposed to using the 150 to start off, and then it'll go in the veg box when I step up to 400, lol. Thanks again!

 

[payn4school]

sweet thread, just ordered mine!

 

[FGandalf]

crazy roots

crazy roots

i have two of these bulbs, 400w. Growing in pearlite coco and moss. About 6 different strains. GH Flora Nova. I am using one to veg under to see how the plants respond and what i found was in an 18/6 cycle the plants grew an incredible amount of roots with almost no verticle growth but very tight nodes almost one on top of the other. The probelm i had was they kept getting root bound on me. And changing them to larger pots only gave them more area for root growth and put on some more nodes but no verticle growth. So i put them under my flouro tubes to veg some more and they took off like rockets. Big thick plants. Wild tight nodes. Now i'm going to be taking clones and then i think when they root and get a bit growing i'm going to put them under the cmh lamp for 18/6 for 2 weeks and then put them into 12/12 under a cmh lamp and see how it goes. But the root growth is unreal. Any one else experience this root growth with a CMH?

 

[Guest]

Yes on the root growth. I always use coco as a medium or the base for building an organic mix/soil and that seems to promote good root growth as well.

 

[MPL]

Why horizontal? You recommended a vertical earlier. For a vscrog I thought we had agreed that a vertical lamp was necessary. Now I'm really confused.

I'm still planning the same style grow, but on a much larger scale. Instead of a 16" diameter screen I'm going up to 24", so the screen is 12" from the center of the bulb. I might go up to a 26" screen if necessary to keep the plants from being too close to the lamp. I've got good airflow planned and am 99% sure I can keep it cool in my set up. Around 75F-82F max is what I expect.

Are you referring to that bush, for bush-style, that you posted a pic of just the other day?

Mpl nice find.. 400 bigger than ur orig plan, not for same style setup unless alot larger (oh ya Nutes to.. shhh)
MPL get a horizontal.. its way easier for first grow, i only really like them with many lamps hanging like that guy with the garage has done in other grows.. like when you grwoing fewer but Bush style (not most growers style)

 

[simba]

heya,,

ya they do keep them allot shorter LOL>>
but i dont know/do perlite, moss, soil so i have no input sorry...
coco you shouldn't be getting root bound.. I Personally Like B'cuzz Bounce (even over there bulk)
the GH FN i cant say i like it, i say get Flormato Dry (for ease), or anything else(almost)
GH FN is not really for heavy eaters and you will notice your babies eat a bit more..

MPL..
ya for the small v-scrog 150 great even 100 in that lil thing would Rock IMPHO..
you already got your 400 ballast so that locks you on 400.. you really have to be sure about setup being big enough.. (in honesty a 400 on a vscrog id say a 36" diameter would be needed..
a 400 small box will be easier for ya.. (but if small small sperate Light box.. (easy.. ill post a pic if needed)

however a 400 is not for any thing small.like that. its a real PITA to cool etc in that

when we say you can go low to plant we talking the light is above the plant and that heat (hot air) (actively passively light cooling) doesn't go near the plants.. however in vscrog at the top of the plants the heat will be there.. as the lamp will be down in there..(no way to get cool air in and out without hitting plants and then the temp of the 400 its not "Cold" in its own but compared to HPS Or MH it is

not issue in big Vertical grows like this..(using a 400-1kw anything.)
Next 3 lamps are Vertical...

nah i mean BUSH, like this.. LOL> (efficiency is so debatable)

this pic you see how Airy the plants are (waste of space and Restricts air etc)

this plant is to bushy for us.. or even HPS IMPHO (ya it may look nice but so many small bud sites = more energy needed to fill each one.. Its like trying to fill 50 swiming pools with one lil hose..

What we want
this pic you can see Lil forests and will be more efficient and larger harvest (IMPHO) especially for time involved that extra veg on bush's is wasted in grow rooms.. Outdoors i love monsters..

and another

this pic is a euro setup Great if it was cmh lights would be allot lower and if Super skilled grower can do 2 rows in that room and double his yeild per harvest.. (SKILLED)

This is what you want if your doing small grow WIth horizontal bulb and 1-2 plants or even 4 lil monsters.

or )this is what your really going to experience before the pic right above..

or you can go this way with it.. but takes up room..and is horizontal bulb
eye 400 hps (sucky lamp but im sure he didn't know about these CMH's)
it can easily be done perpetuity and is small for what its capable of..

2nd version of same idea.

This is what you DONT WANT

 

[Siddartha]

You mean I could get away with no glass at all in the tub and a aircooled hood, Simba?

Also, I'm wondering about what sized fan I should get. The sitch is that the garden may be in a private study, so the fan should be quiet enough to read/work in the same room as, preferably silent, but . . . .

I was thinking about doing a small carbon scrubber and an ONA/Soil Moist bucket w/ fan in the same closet as odor control. Then I thought I tend to overdo things and emptied my shopping cart to come ask first. Is this overkill? I REALLY don't want anyone smelling this, I know there are only gonna be like 4 flowering plants or so, but I'm a n00b...

Lots of questions, feel free to ignore any or all of them .

Thanks again!

 

[Siddartha]

Just went to a local store. Found a tub thats 36" w x 21" d x 19" h. Would this still be too small for the 250w? There was another taller one, but it didn't have the measurements (~40 gal).

 

[MPL]

Well, I didn't actually choose the ballast. It was a gift, so I didn't say nuttin' about it being a 400w.

The pic I quoted here would be perfect for me. I guess I can build a 24"x24"x36"H box and stick 1 or 2 plants in there and LST em. I'll make a reflector out of some sheet metal.

heya,,

MPL..
ya for the small v-scrog 150 great even 100 in that lil thing would Rock IMPHO..
you already got your 400 ballast so that locks you on 400.. you really have to be sure about setup being big enough.. (in honesty a 400 on a vscrog id say a 36" diameter would be needed..
a 400 small box will be easier for ya.. (but if small small sperate Light box.. (easy.. ill post a pic if needed)

This is what you want if your doing small grow WIth horizontal bulb and 1-2 plants or even 4 lil monsters.