Carbs: A Wolf in Sheeps Clothing (warn)

[somebody041]

very interesting...

i have nothing to contribute but i've found this discussion intriguing!

 

[Proteus]

only one thing you need to grow plants to bombastic levels, and that is a complete plant fertilizer. any of them will work as well as another.

 

[Guest 88950]

thx all.

 

[VerdantGreen]

firstly i would like to say thanks too everyone for this discussion. i have always had slight issues with the absolute assertion that organic mediums cant be flushed/leached - a conflict between my own practical experience as a gardener and the scientific stuff i read.
obviously flushing/leaching is different and limited with organics, but it is relevent in a small way

....
"Bio-fertilizers", aka 'bio-available elements', aka 'inorganic elements', can be flushed away, especially ions like N and P, which is why I suggest adding zeolite to media. But, this flushing is much reduced with a strong microherd which as MM and I have noted, will 'lockup' (sequester) many elements within the soil food web, to be released during nutrient cycling. However, many glue like substances excreted by microbes (ex. bio-film, glomalin, etc) help 'hold' those elements in the from of media aggregates and other processes.

That's my take on it, does make sense to ya V? MM, would you care to comment? Do you see any flaws in my reasoning?

HTH

zeolite is pretty similar to clay, and i presume you recommend this for it's ability to hold on to nutrients with it's negative charge.

i started a thread about topsoil and it's use in potting media - i would like to experiment with some clay in the mix. perhaps you and mm can stop by and give your thoughts

cheers

V.

 

[maryjohn]

To me if it can heat up like compost it's a goodly volume to grow cannabis in.
I think the term bulk is meant as soil not directly involved with the rhizosphere.

So if we add materials in relationship to other materials to our soils we can use may things our "closed systems" soil food web.

That's where i feel I am at.. Hell I even used apple sauce this year.

A shot glass full of soil produces the same heat given the same starting temperature - whether in a pile or in a shot glass. The difference with the pile is less surface area compared to volume, not any kind of ability to support microorganisms. However if we must be technical, the shot glass of compost produces the same heat in a pile or on its own. And yes, I am assuming we insulate and warm the shot glass to control for the volume thing.

 

[JackTheGrower]

A shot glass full of soil produces the same heat given the same starting temperature - whether in a pile or in a shot glass. The difference with the pile is less surface area compared to volume, not any kind of ability to support microorganisms. However if we must be technical, the shot glass of compost produces the same heat in a pile or on its own. And yes, I am assuming we insulate and warm the shot glass to control for the volume thing.

Okay.. LOL.. Shot glass composter..

That made me laugh.. You do have a point about activity per....

 

[Ghostwolf]

Anything from the hydro store that has significant design and graphics. If they can afford marketing they are ripping you off. Your own trash can make all the fertilizer you need, especially for mj.

You may find some products are worth it for convenience though. I try to get products that serve multiple purposes, like, um... Molasses. Rice bran, kelp meal, fish emulsion, and even blood meal can be used to brew em batches. What else can you do with "super bud blood" or "kola kick st3"?

I like the way you think, what ever you have around the house that can work, use it. I'm not able to buy expensive store bought nutes, so I use what I have, like molasses and other things found in the kitchen because I have no choice. But I have found that you can make what you need from the kitchen on your own, read labels and use common sense don't go overboard and anyone can DIY from home.

 

[Grizvok]

Well cool deal man, you've got your shit together!

So now I've scratched mycorrhizae off my list, and molasses/bud candy off my list, what else can I get rid of?

I've read quite a few articles about the topic too and while he makes a good argument for discussion, throwing those things out the window so hastily may not be the best decision.

 

[VerdantGreen]

hi gd - sorry for that delay in responding

I question how much actully gets to the plant...

For Ca and Mg folair application of OMRI amino acids is the best option IMO. This prevent nutrient lockout in media and won't hurt the media bound microbes. Those microbes in the phyllosphere can be reapplied via ACT or AEM a few days after spraying with the amino acids.

hmm - i dont think foliar feeding is applicable to budding mj plants though. asking for trouble after the first few weeks flower.

I doubt it. And like I wrote, it will probably mess up the balance in the rhizosphere. I think many people are under the impression the added carbs are for the plant (eg. "sweet", etc), to make the buds smell good. But, that's just not the case (in my research, experiments and experience).

Another thing is the carbs we offer are most probably inferior to those from the plant, those the microbes have evolved to use...

agreed that the idea that the carbs sweeten the plant is very questionable, (and i noted you used the word 'probably' a couple of times
as an annual plant - will this 'plant led' microbe feeding be consistent in mid-late flower when the plant is in decline and is essentially dying? could molasses boost available nutrients at this point?

i find it hard to believe that so many growers experience - that molasses helps - can be so wrong.

here is an book/article that talks about the use of molasses as a fertilizer in the sugar can industry (they have been using it for 100 odd years - usually at times when the price of molasses was lower than the price of ferts)
advantages are listed as
good source of K and trace elements
increased microbial activity
5-10% increase in yield on low fertility soils.

V.

 

[ganja din]

hey v,

Folair application of those elements were meant as an adjunct to 'main' nutrient sources. Like the way molasses is used for elements. From my reading, supplemental Ca is beneficial during pre-flowering, otherwise I don't apply supplemental Ca.

I wouldn't assume the plant is plant [sic] "declining and starting to die in mid-late flowering". Near the point of senescence the plant is dying. During flowing photosynthesis is strong, which means the plant should still be excreting carbs as the plant is still 'feeding'...

Re: many people think they see befits from molasses and carbs: I don't put much stock in conjecture, even the well intentioned and first hand kind. Most people use these items because they think they will make cannabis smell and taste different/better, which IMO is the myth part.

About that study, the key part is the soil was poor in the first place. Cannabis is not grown in poor media. And I agree molasses offers elements, as does most OM, but there are much better sources of the same elements. Also, cannabis can utilize higher levels of elements than sugar cane, especially when 'intensely' grown under HID.

Thanks for the link

 

[jaykush]

Cannabis is not grown in poor media.

of course it does, it may not be "optimal conditions" but it will grow and produce.

or maybe your idea of poor media and my idea of poor soil are different.

 

[VerdantGreen]

i think the thing is with organics is that by mid-late flowering the soil has become short of nutes and many of us dont like to feed much later in flowering - so molasses may help squeeze those last bits of nutrition out of the soil and give some trace elements etc.

V.

 

[VerdantGreen]

Re: many people think they see befits from molasses and carbs: I don't put much stock in conjecture, even the well intentioned and first hand kind. Most people use these items because they think they will make cannabis smell and taste different/better, which IMO is the myth part.

some would call it conjecture, and others would call it practical experience

scientists, from my experience, have a habit of denying anything that they cant explain

both science and experience are important but someone who has been growing weed for many years may know exactly how to grow great buds but would not have the first idea of the science/biology behind it (this does not detract from the quality of said weed )

V.

P.s. - i think most people use molasses/sugar because they think it increases yeild, not adds sweetness, in Cervantes bible there is a pic of two buds, one is bigger than the other and that is because it was fed sugar - experience or conjecture?

 

[DARC MIND]

some would call it conjecture, and others would call it practical experience

scientists, from my experience, have a habit of denying anything that they cant explain

both science and experience are important but someone who has been growing weed for many years may know exactly how to grow great buds but would not have the first idea of the science/biology behind it (this does not detract from the quality of said weed )

V.

P.s. - i think most people use molasses/sugar because they think it increases yeild, not adds sweetness, in Cervantes bible there is a pic of two buds, one is bigger than the other and that is because it was fed sugar - experience or conjecture?

im with V,
this was a good read but molasses has been nothing but good to my girls. I use it in conjunction with other nutrients or alone and my plants seem to love this stuff.
I will continue to use molasses because it works very well with my soil and how i apply nutrients.
Wolf or not, molasses will always be in my grows!

 

[VerdantGreen]

gd - is it possible that molasses could spare the plant from having to use 25% of its carbs in the rootzone?. does a plant 'feed' microbes in response to the level of nutrients available?

so if the molasses is feeding the microbes, the plant doesnt have to ???

V.

 

[Microbeman]

molasses feeds microbes; very very very little would be directly utilized by the plant.

From your freindly neighborhood experienced scientist<GRIN>

 

[VerdantGreen]

hi microbe

what do you think to my question above?? (we posted at the same time)

 

[ganja din]

@ jk,

I didn't write cannabis can't be grown in poor media and soil. I wrote it is not grown in said media and soils. Poor soils to me have low humus and OM, poor CEC and aggregation, low elements and low microbial biomass.



@ v,

I think i already answered that question on a previous page, I think. Did you already ask it? Or am I mistaken?

I don't believe carbs increase yeild. I have found so many errors by Cervanties. And don't even get me started of his lack of understanding ligthing (photons from UV-b to IR).

Aren't you are basing your whole argument on an unproven hypthothesis? That being: reducing ferts late in flowing makes cannabis smell/tate better. If so, bunk I say. I have run trials and very unscientifically none of us could tell a difference by smoking. The key to not flushing or lowering ferts is semi-constant, and not too much (quantity) of ferts. Consider that most of the flower girth happens in the last few weeks, don't you think its wise to continue feeding the plant (via. microbes)?

Also, I think you are referring to the supposed ability of molasses to chelate minerals? I think that's another "birdism" which I do not believe. Fulvic and humic acids are much better for this as are microbes...

Much of the 'truth' in the cannabis world is flatly wrong...

 

[Microbeman]

gd - is it possible that molasses could spare the plant from having to use 25% of its carbs in the rootzone?. does a plant 'feed' microbes in response to the level of nutrients available?

so if the molasses is feeding the microbes, the plant doesnt have to ???

V.

This is an interesting hypothesis/question. It may be worthy of a study. One would need to establish that the molasses was feeding the same microorganisms and possibly with the same carbon molecular bond structure as the plant may be outputting at this life stage. One could also run a side by side 'field' study using several subject plants, some with molasses, some without and set up a system of objective measurement. (e.g. mass)

 

[Microbeman]

Much of the 'truth' in the cannabis world is flatly wrong...

Just as most of the 'gardening with joe blow' shows and books are. I learned this the hard way.