Can't shake manganese deficiency.

[Sativant]

Big swings in pH always causes problems.
Try to go up or down only 0.2 points at a time.

I’m not a liquid nuts expert, but excess Ca can antagonize Mn by precipitate it out, especially in the presence of carbonates and bicarbonates in the water.

I would try backing off on the CalMag, especially if you have decent alkalinity in your tap water.

It's not a deficiency, it's toxicity.
I'm interested by the comment it could be Na (salt) and wonder if road salt might be involved, as it's that time of year.

Unfortunately it's been going on longer than that...

I think it might be light poisoning rather than nutrient issuses. At 70 F / 33% RH, your room is likely too cold and too dry, so the plants can't convert all that strong LED light.

It seems to be a common problem in cold and dry winter grows under strong led lights. When it happens,, everything else gets out of whack, and it can't even drink much water either.

Remedies:
- Get the temps up by adding a radiator or other heat source (or switch to the old MH or HPS light).
- Get a humidifyer to increase humidity.
- Raise or dim the lights until the plants start picking up again.
- Go very easy on food and water until they start bouncing back.

 

[Sativant]

Thank you to everyone that replied. Everyone had excellent points. I still have a lot to learn. I'm very thankful to this forum.

I think my main problem is the well water. I know that there's a lot of Ca in it. Last time I tested tds were 130 ppm. It's been years since then but it must have changed. I was avoiding the softened water we have in the tap, fearing it would be bad for the plants. Can one successfully use softened water ? Or do I have to go to RO water ?

I never gave it much Cal-Mag, but I will try to avoid it. What is the best way to avoid magnesium deficiency ? I've used epsom salts in the past.

I should note that I keep the plants at a very steady 77˚ at the canopy, 70˚ at the base of plants. The environment is very consistent and well ventilated. When I take pictures and the door is open to my 3'x 3' grow space, it gets colder, but that's just temporary. Rh is another matter. This time of year there's not much I can do.
I'm attaching a surveillance photo that I just took. Thanks tot he advice here, I look forward to posting a better looking canopy within 10 days. Fingers crossed. Because it looks terrible right now...

 

[Sativant]

It's not a deficiency, it's toxicity.
I'm interested by the comment it could be Na (salt) and wonder if road salt might be involved, as it's that time of year.

Unfortunately it's been going on longer than that. These are clones of the plants I originally started.

 

[Sativant]

I am interested in what you find as the fix. Are you new to LED? I was struggling for a year with going to LED from HID.

I see the temp says 63 degrees. Two things in my LED grow that made a difference. Increased temps and switching to a fixture that had supplemental IR/UV. Things are healthy again. I was chasing all kinds of deficiency symptoms until those changes. I'll be trying the other lights again soon since she is healthy again. In my situation I suspect it was the temps more than the lighting.

I've never used anything but LED. I've been using this light since 2018 with a lot of success. Supplemental IR/UV is something I'd like to do eventually.

 

[Sativant]

I’m not a liquid nuts expert, but excess Ca can antagonize Mn by precipitate it out, especially in the presence of carbonates and bicarbonates in the water.

I would try backing off on the CalMag, especially if you have decent alkalinity in your tap water.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Thank you !

 

[Sativant]

Are you sure you aren't overwatering ?

Yes- I let them get dry.

 

[Sativant]

I think it might be light poisoning rather than nutrient issuses. At 70 F / 33% RH, your room is likely too cold and too dry, so the plants can't convert all that strong LED light.

It seems to be a common problem in cold and dry winter grows under strong led lights. When it happens,, everything else gets out of whack, and it can't even drink much water either.

Remedies:
- Get the temps up by adding a radiator or other heat source (or switch to the old MH or HPS light).
- Get a humidifyer to increase humidity.
- Raise or dim the lights until the plants start picking up again.
- Go very easy on food and water until they start bouncing back.

Good points ! Normally, when the door is shut the temps are perfect. Just when I open it to water or check on them it gets colder and drier.

 

[Sativant]

Well water can be a bitch. EC 2 and up is possible, mostly Ca. Check it's EC or do a lab test on it.

I have a lab test , but can't find it. It seems to have changed, though, in the last few years. What's up with that ?

 

[Three Berries]

I was reading that yeast loves Ca and Mg in carbonates. Breaking them down then going though their cycle making it available to the plant. And that low levels of ethanol in the soil promote nutrient absorption (in rapeseed anyway).

I was mixing rainwater and molasses and it started to ferment, this kept the pH dropping as long as the carbonization was going on.

So I guess where I was going with this is if you have high ppm well water and it's mostly Ca/Mg then adding yeast will help use the carbonates to free the Ca and Mg and keep the pH down?

 

[Tomatoesonly]

I was reading that yeast loves Ca and Mg in carbonates. Breaking them down then going though their cycle making it available to the plant. And that low levels of ethanol in the soil promote nutrient absorption (in rapeseed anyway).

I was mixing rainwater and molasses and it started to ferment, this kept the pH dropping as long as the carbonization was going on.

So I guess where I was going with this is if you have high ppm well water and it's mostly Ca/Mg then adding yeast will help use the carbonates to free the Ca and Mg and keep the pH down?

Can he get some bread out the deal as well?

 

[Three Berries]

Can he get some bread out the deal as well?

And the CO2 produced during fermentation in the soil can be utilized by the plant!

THE UPTAKE OF CARBON DIOXIDE BY PLANT ROOTS on JSTOR

M. C. STEMMET, J. A. DE BRUYN, P. B. ZEEMAN, THE UPTAKE OF CARBON DIOXIDE BY PLANT ROOTS, Plant and Soil, Vol. 17, No. 3 (December 1962), pp. 357-364

www.jstor.org

Help keeps the soil aeriated?

 

[exploziv]

I have a lab test , but can't find it. It seems to have changed, though, in the last few years. What's up with that ?

Probably varies with season and rainfall.

 

[Dr.Mantis]

I have a lab test , but can't find it. It seems to have changed, though, in the last few years. What's up with that ?

Could be changes in the mineral stratification of the well your water is going through. Could also be changes in the surface run off. Short of a lab report, and ec meter would be very helpful to have in the long run.

Also, carbonates and bicarbonates can be completely removed by dropping your pH to about 4, then degassing. Following this, you can bring it up so whatever pH you want (that is, with a non carbonate pH up!). If you have a lot of cal in your well water, you may not even need any supplemental Ca at all.

 

[Creeperpark]

The problem with using well water is that the water has percolated thru so many different aggregates that the carbonate content has risen too high. In other words, the alkalinity in the water has locked up trace minerals or micro nutrients. Try using 'RO or Rainwater instead of well water for a complete fix.

 

[Creeperpark]

Could be changes in the mineral stratification of the well your water is going through. Could also be changes in the surface run off. Short of a lab report, and ec meter would be very helpful to have in the long run.

Also, carbonates and bicarbonates can be completely removed by dropping your pH to about 4, then degassing. Following this, you can bring it up so whatever pH you want (that is, with a non carbonate pH up!). If you have a lot of cal in your well water, you may not even need any supplemental Ca at all.

The problem with dropping the pH so low is by-product is left behind or impurities.. Another problem with using that much acid is when the hydrogen leaves the pH always rises again like the above.

 

[Three Berries]

The problem with using RO or Rainwater is you have to supplement the Ca and Mg. Well water it's just finding the right ratio. Though in my case it still is not enough free Ca. The pH always came out good with no need to adjust in the mid upper 6s. Maybe it should be much lower with hard water?

 

[Creeperpark]

The problem with using RO or Rainwater is you have to supplement the Ca and Mg. Well water it's just finding the right ratio. Though in my case it still is not enough free Ca. The pH always came out good with no need to adjust in the mid upper 6s. Maybe it should be much lower with hard water?

Supplementing Ca in RO or rainwater is not hard TB. The main reason for using cal-mag in RO or Rainwater is to keep the pH from dropping too when using fertilizers.
.

 

[Creeperpark]

Just looking at the photo above I see that your pH is very high, probably from using tap water or well water. When you have so much hydroxyl content in the soil the plant will have problems taking micronutrients.

 

[Dr.Mantis]

Thank you to everyone that replied. Everyone had excellent points. I still have a lot to learn. I'm very thankful to this forum.

I think my main problem is the well water. I know that there's a lot of Ca in it. Last time I tested tds were 130 ppm. It's been years since then but it must have changed. I was avoiding the softened water we have in the tap, fearing it would be bad for the plants. Can one successfully use softened water ? Or do I have to go to RO water ?

I never gave it much Cal-Mag, but I will try to avoid it. What is the best way to avoid magnesium deficiency ? I've used epsom salts in the past.

I should note that I keep the plants at a very steady 77˚ at the canopy, 70˚ at the base of plants. The environment is very consistent and well ventilated. When I take pictures and the door is open to my 3'x 3' grow space, it gets colder, but that's just temporary. Rh is another matter. This time of year there's not much I can do.
I'm attaching a surveillance photo that I just took. Thanks tot he advice here, I look forward to posting a better looking canopy within 10 days. Fingers crossed. Because it looks terrible right now...

Hey man, I feel your pain. My tap water is at around 500ppm on the .5 scale. I run RO now which makes like so much easier. That being said, I still grew very successfully with my old water. The buffer capacity of your solution can be very helpful with high alkalinity. Salts like phosphate and citrate tend to resist changes in pH within certain ranges. So neutralizing your water with these acids can be one potential approach. However with phosphate, you need to keep in mind your ppm of added phosphate, since too much P can cause other lockouts. Other things you can do are distilled water flushes on your soil to leach out excess salts. I used to do this every 2nd grow with recycled soil. I would put the dry media in a tray. Soak it for a few hours, then drain the water off and re use the soil.

Easiest solution is to get an RO system. If you don’t want to drop the $ on a system, you can usually refil 5 gallon jugs at the water store for a few bucks with good low ppm water. If you are only running a couple of plants, this can be a cheaper option in the short term.

 

[Three Berries]

Just looking at the photo above I see that your pH is very high, probably from using tap water or well water. When you have so much hydroxyl content in the soil the plant will have problems taking micronutrients.

Yes I know. I did a all rain water run last year and this is an all well water one for comparison. I wanted to see if I could use the calcium in my water instead of adding. I added limestone to the soil mix too! I have special needs due to high CO2 Ca wise.

But they seem happy at 7.0pH run off. Best so far with the K issue at this time. A lot of that is the Miracle Grow I was using but I'm also using the KCl2 and MasterBlend this time around.