Can we please start MEASURING amendments

[hush]

I agree with all that. I'm one of the few Americans that uses metric measurements, because I'm more of a scientific-minded person. I admit though that I have a problem trying to think of temperature in Celsius. I don't know why, but when people are talking about weather temperature, or temps in their grow rooms, I always have to convert it to Fahrenheit.

But I love the metric system, for the record. I weigh things in grams and I measure volumes in liters. Americans are just stubborn, like I said.

 

[Only Ornamental]

They do it on purpose. That way, everyone who wants to copy their stuff (like shooting a rocket to the moon) will fail due rounding errors .

 

[MisterBlah]

They do it on purpose. That way, everyone who wants to copy their stuff (like shooting a rocket to the moon) will fail due rounding errors .

This is a fundamental problem with the industry. Everything thinks their shit is better. No one wants to share information. Everyone thinks everyone else is against them. It is all due to the previously illegal nature of the industry and the complete lack of sharing of information.

If you've seen my thread that I just started, you'll see that I'm trying to break down this wall. If everyone's blends are public information, they don't have a "We have a secret ingredient" type of argument or marketing point to make.

 

[Granger2]

Back in the 70's Congress passed, Pres signed, a transition to Metric. Road signs started being replaced with MPH/KPH 30MPH/50KPH, etc. Soda started coming in liters, 2 liters, etc. There was a huge outcry from Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Public. So much so that Congress rescinded it. So now were stuck with it for the foreseeable future.

What I'm always reminded of is my neighborhood Chinese Cafe. They had a big painted to go menu on the wall with selections and the price for 1 pint, 1 quart. Then one day I went in and they had changed the pint column to 1/2 quart. I asked why, and they said cuz so many people didn't know that a pint is a half quart. Saved time, confusion, and their having to explain all the time. I have no sympathy about this because so many Americans don't even know the system we're on. They'll be confused no matter what system we use.

As a grower, I've become completely bilingual. My mind sees tsp and thinks 5 ml., and versa vice. -granger

 

[MisterBlah]

Back in the 70's Congress passed, Pres signed, a transition to Metric. Road signs started being replaced with MPH/KPH 30MPH/50KPH, etc. Soda started coming in liters, 2 liters, etc. There was a huge outcry from Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Public. So much so that Congress rescinded it. So now were stuck with it for the foreseeable future.

What I'm always reminded of is my neighborhood Chinese Cafe. They had a big painted to go menu on the wall with selections and the price for 1 pint, 1 quart. Then one day I went in and they had changed the pint column to 1/2 quart. I asked why, and they said cuz so many people didn't know that a pint is a half quart. Saved time, confusion, and their having to explain all the time. I have no sympathy about this because so many Americans don't even know the system we're on. They'll be confused no matter what system we use.

As a grower, I've become completely bilingual. My mind sees tsp and thinks 5 ml., etc. -granger

As an engineer, it is learned very early. I do all of my work in metric. If someone needs the stupid Imperial units, I do the conversion, but reluctantly. I've even considered charging extra for work that has a deliverable in Imperial units because it does take me more time to do it.

 

[DarthFader1]

True, there's really no real need for precision with organic gardening because bat guano doesn't equal bat guano and as roughly 0% of the users here run soil mineral analyses prior to adding a broad variety of poorly defined amendments...
A bit more precision and a standard measure would still be welcome but more as a principle than a necessity. Regarding the mentioned EC: though this one is usually expressed in SI units, most convert it to ppm (or rather their instrument does so) using a conversion factor they seldom know, let alone communicate. And that's just one of many things, pH would be another... Meaning, even those who think they do it right and precise are often as accurate as that cup per bag.

Hey guys haven't been around these ways for a while

Regarding soil mineral analyses i think you may underestimate the peeps that use these services. I for one have had analyses done by the best lab in the country until i figured out exactly what was going on in my mixes. The "fun" part is where you get a lab tech asking in depth questions about what im growing and what i seek from my soil mix, so as to offer recommendations That's always an awkward convo id rather never have lol. After the first time i sent my mum in after that to get some analyses done for the farm lol.

Regarding EC conversion isn't it EC x 500 or 700 to convert into ppm's? My only gripe with this would be hardly anyone ever mentions what conversion rate they use to arrive at ppm's. PH is a standard measure throughout the world assuming correct calibrations, obviously, not even sure why that is being mentioned.

The classic saying of "don't need to measure shit in organics" is imho completely ignorant of the facts, and exactly the problem i speak of in the OP. Example, the correct lime application is exponentially important to plant health / yields when growing in soil. Too many times i have seen ppl's grows turn to garbage around week 4 of flower because of overliming. What usually happens is nitrogen and/or magnesium gets locked out because the PH has swung too high because of too much lime in the mix. Whether one use's dolomite or oyster shell flour this issue is constant. Adding "half a cup" of lime is exactly what can cause these crop destroying issues because who the fuqq really knows how much half a cup is?? Is that half cup been tapped on the bench a few times so it sinks? One persons half cup could have 50% more contents than another person's half cup, resulting in huge discrepancies in true amounts of amendments added. Why not just make it exact and and add say 2grams of lime per litre of soil mix. When i do this with the soil i use i know from experience the soil PH will stabilise around the 6.2 - 6.4 region which is perfect for most scenarios. When you have an actual weight of X amendment to work with it enables crop uniformity with reliable results, which is especially useful when mono-cropping.

LOL at someone who said does the soil really care about how many grams you added? That's exactly the point im making, YES mate the soil actually does care. It's called having your mix dialled in shiieet. I was never arguing metric vs imperial i was arguing just use one or the other and make it constant. I dunno, i guess i take my job alot more seriously than most. Im the sort of guy that if one leaf isn't perfect i will study for hours to at least try to figure out why something is happening.

Each to their own i guess, that's one of the many differences between being a professional and an amateur. So to the amateurs that are saying just relax, i would respond, NEVER!!!

Apologies for the disjointed post i have many things running through my head today

darth

 

[DarthFader1]

I would add another issue with using the teaspoon, tablespoon, or cup approach is that different amendments weigh different amounts given the same volume. For example i know that gypsum, dolomite, and oyster shell flours all have incredibly different absolute weights given the same volumes. One only has to weigh a teaspoon of each to see the difference.

If someone is using the teaspoon or cup approach and coming out with perfectly healthy crops from start to finish time after time, i would say that their mixes are dialled in nicely, but this is usually the exception to the rule ime, and its usually after a lot of experimenting changing proportions of amendments from run to run, then experienced growers can happily say half a cup or tablespoon or whatever because they have learned from their experience just what is correct, if that makes sense

If everything is weighed, written down, and then tracked from start to finish it provides a set of meaningful data over time that should help the grower to adjust things more precisely.

Some strains are more forgiving than others and you can get away with rough measures better - try and grow a 10-12 week killer finicky OG or haze and it will be a completely different story imo.

To grow the best flowers, the plant needs to be in optimal health from start to finish, and if one's soil mix is really dialled in, you are able to achieve this and furthermore time the mix to begin running short of macronutrients right on harvest time, particularly nitrogen. That has to be the goal of every grower amirite? To grow the best bud possible? This thread was designed to address this issue which undoubtedly is one of the drivers of end bud quality. Somebody said there are more important things to focus on in a grow, well i would argue that there are probably 100 different factors to focus on in a grow, and the understanding and attempted perfection of ALL these factors is what makes for the best possible end results ime/imo. There is not one factor but many factors, and this is one of them there cannot be any doubt about that. When soil is fully dialled with perfect watering and nutrient profile, 1 - 1.5gpw is fully achievable even with medium yielding strains and this is a claim i do not make lightly. Anything less is fully underpar in my world. But i digress...

darth

 

[Naut.s.33]

True, there's really no real need for precision with organic gardening because bat guano doesn't equal bat guano and as roughly 0% of the users here run soil mineral analyses prior to adding a broad variety of poorly defined amendments...
A bit more precision and a standard measure would still be welcome but more as a principle than a necessity. Regarding the mentioned EC: though this one is usually expressed in SI units, most convert it to ppm (or rather their instrument does so) using a conversion factor they seldom know, let alone communicate. And that's just one of many things, pH would be another... Meaning, even those who think they do it right and precise are often as accurate as that cup per bag.

Omfg lmfao. This sooooo hard.

 

[ganjygav]

I thought a cup was an American measurement? When I follow cooking recipes from american they use cups as measurement. I brought this little plastic cup that is the standard cup in recipes.

 

[Naut.s.33]

It is ganjy

: United States customary cup is defined as half a U.S. pint.
1 U.S. customary cup = 1⁄16 U.S. customary gallon
= 1⁄4 U.S. customary quart
= 1⁄2 U.S. customary pint
= 8 U.S. customary fluid ounces
= 16 U.S. customary tablespoons[nb 1]
= 48 U.S. customary teaspoons
≡ 236.5882365 millilitres[nb 2]
≈ 152⁄3 international tablespoons
≈ 11.75 Australian tablespoons
≈ 0.833 imperial cups
≈ 8.33 imperial fluid ounces

The cup currently used in the United States for nutrition labelling is defined in United States law as 240 ml.[3][4][5]
1 U.S. "legal" cup = 240 millilitres
= 16 international tablespoons
= 12 Australian tablespoons
≈ 8.12 U.S. customary fluid ounces
≈ 8.45 imperial fluid ounces

 

[Mikell]

Another good argument for the metric system.

 

[Naut.s.33]

Yea, I agree. I live in good ol America, and it baffles me that we use this shit still. Just look at any conversion chart and its clear which is easier to understand.

 

[Tonygreen]

eh yo try my soil mix then you will be less annoyed!

 

[Stone House]

Who can clarify something for me?
Why don't they use the metric system in the US?

When I was in school at the age of 10, they told us we were soon going to convert to the metric system.
I am now 62 and we still haven't converted

 

[worm~]

eh yo try my soil mix then you will be less annoyed!

Hi Tonygreen, is this soil mix of yours still good? Any changes before I mix one up? Thanks!

1 bag Ocean Forest + 1 bag Canna Coco + 1 bag Happy Frog
1/2 bag Chunky Perlite + 30 pounds of Earth worm castings
6 c Bone meal + 6 c pulverized dolomite lime 2-1 Cal/mag ratio
1.5 c Azomite + 2 c Blood meal + 3 c Kelp meal

worm~

 

[balsamfirgreen]

pH of soil

pH of soil

is there any handheld device for determining pH of soil, accurately? I dont think testing run off water is exactly a representation of soil pH, nor is mixing the soil with water and testing that water. If a soil mix is of perfect pH, but it gets fed a season of well water (usually, in an area near here, is a little sweet, sometimes over 8). will this actually gradually change the pH of the soil enough to cause "lockout".

example. 100 (400L, give or take) gallon holes backfilled with a custom soil mixture, tested, pH'd, etc. let's assume theoretically that said soil mix is so perfectly balanced that it needs nothing but water till maybe late flowering, and even then, probably it's better to just leave it alone. in-ground holes properly mulched take up to a week or more to become so dry that the plant begins to suffer, usually 5 gallons (20L) of water per watering is sufficient, once the plant really starts to drive, and the foliage is going wild, this will increase to about 10% of the volume of the soil (perhaps 10 gallons of water, or 40 litres). other than that its strictly worm castings + molasses tea, foliar seaweed extract perhaps. so in 12-16 weeks the soil 100gal/400L will get about 150-200 (as much as 800L, or more) gallons of water (800L, @ ph 8, will this drive the pH so high as to "lockout" critical nutrients?

 

[Mikell]

Container pH can rise during a season, but as a result of deposits from water, the actual pH is less relevant. This is well documented in conventional greenhouse cultivation. Humus will help buffer the pH, I would only be concerned in extreme cases.

Slurry test, if done correctly, is the most accurate way to check, short of a home LaMotte kit or sending a sample away.

 

[stoned-trout]

a pinch of this, a cup of that. a bag of this and your all set... ooh a smidgeon of that too..yeehaw

 

[who dat is]

a pinch of this, a cup of that. a bag of this and your all set... ooh a smidgeon of that too..yeehaw

In all seriousness though. Dump some shit on there so long as it won't burn your plants and let the dirt do the work

 

[corky1968]

Pour the whole bottle. I know you want to.

Just don't blame me later if you burn your plants though. LOLZ