Can any Breeder/pheno hunter explain to me WTF is going on??

[maryjaneismyfre]

4-5 weeks in.

All I have to say is that I am sincerely grateful to the assistance from a dude from Sacramento, I think it is. And if you have the chance or opportunity to get cuts from a nursery that will certify to you that they are clean, take it and do not look back. SourD meantioned by others on here , there are pictures on insta where its grown recently and its as good as the day the plant was phenohunted 2-3 decades ago..hows that?...It's pretty simple actually once you've been down the rabbithole and come back.

 

[TrifektaSeeds]

So, dry bleach ?
How can I sterile my seeds, with normal liquid bleach ? Or there's another way..

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

So, dry bleach ?
How can I sterile my seeds, with normal liquid bleach ? Or there's another way..

Dry bleach is aka HTH...

You can use 1/3 to 1/5 liquid bleach solutions depending if yours on the shelf is 3.5 or 5% concentration...you wanting approx 10000ppm chlorine...wetting agent and bleach and stir seeds for a 2-3 minutes, and thenfresh paper towel off bleach and then rinse a few times in clean containers clean water and germinate separately and then you will contain viroid to those infected iin the embryo.
If the seed is infected in the embryo there in nothing to do but throw the seedling in a bonfire, soil and pot and all LOL...

 

[led05]

Dry bleach is aka HTH...

You can use 1/3 to 1/5 liquid bleach solutions depending if yours on the shelf is 3.5 or 5% concentration...you wanting approx 10000ppm chlorine...wetting agent and bleach and stir seeds for a 2-3 minutes, and thenfresh paper towel off bleach and then rinse a few times in clean containers clean water and germinate separately and then you will contain viroid to those infected iin the embryo.
If the seed is infected in the embryo there in nothing to do but throw the seedling in a bonfire, soil and pot and all LOL...

Or just use HOCL, much easier / kinder to work with… just let it soak an hour, or 10, it’s all good… we live & learn, 1000ppm is plenty , so cheap & easy to make too

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

Or just use HOCL, much easier / kinder to work with… just let it soak an hour, or 10, it’s all good… we live & learn, 1000ppm is plenty , so cheap & easy to make too

1000ppm is plenty for what? Purely curious..To denature viroid? How do you make it? Salt and electrolysis? We just use pool bleach as at scale so go through thousand litres of bleach in no time..but I mean it all dissociates into HOCl in the water as far as I know, you got some more info, for small scale be handy and cheap to be able to make HOCl at will.

 

[led05]

1000ppm is plenty for what? Purely curious..To denature viroid? How do you make it? Salt and electrolysis? We just use pool bleach as at scale so go through thousand litres of bleach in no time..but I mean it all dissociates into HOCl in the water as far as I know, you got some more info, for small scale be handy and cheap to be able to make HOCl at will.

How many seeds are you soaking in thousands of liters of bleach, hundreds of millions…?

HOCL is made with Kosher salt & white vinegar to stabilize / lower PH to ideal level, all types of machines that make it from desktop pitcher to size of a table, whatever works best for you (it’s widely used in healthcare to sterilize all types of instruments, machines, areas etc).

The benign nature of it (all mammals make it within their bodies naturally) but it’s effectiveness against fungus, virus, bacteria etc imo makes it second to none, extremely cheap to make once you have a machine…

Yes 1000ppm seed soak kills off virus, viroids etc…

I make 1500ml at a time, plenty for my needs @ here

Interestingly my brother manages an Apple Store and said they have the exact same machine & use it for cleaning counter displays, devices etc - add electrostatic gun and it’s a great cleaner that’ll dry as it’s a fine mist without having to wipe up or anything, definitely used janitorial for bathrooms & such too….

I’m shocked more don’t use it in AG, I found a few AG related studies but there are also a lot of studies on it’s effects against virus & such by CDC And other similar Govt entities during & from COVID era especially within healthcare settings…

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

I'd do my research though, viroids and virus are different, virus once you denature the encapsulation the rna denatures quickly, viroids by their nature are stable molecules of rna. Viroids are harder to denature than virus generally.

Matsuura, S., Matsushita, Y., Usugi, T., & Tsuda, S. (2010). Disinfection of Tomato chlorotic dwarf viroid by chemical and biological agents. Crop Protection, 29(10), 1157–1161. doi:10.1016/j.cropro.2010.05.018

"3. Results
3.1. Disinfection of TCDVd by various chemicals
The results of the various chemical treatments aimed at dis-
infecting contaminated scalpels are given in Table 1. Tomato plants
that received distilled water treatment (control) exhibited typical
symptoms, including stunting and epinasty, on their newly devel-
oping leaves within 3 weeks. The average TCDVd infection rate in
control plants was approximately 80%. TCDVd-contaminated scal-
pels were completely disinfected by being dipped for 15 s in 3%
sodium hypochlorite or 20% household bleach. A mixture of 2%
sodium hydroxide and 2% formaldehyde was also effective, with an
infection rate of less than 10%. The infection rate with 5% trisodium
phosphate solution was less than 20%. The differences in infection
rates among these four chemical treatments were not significant
(Table 1). Scalpels dipped in trisodium phosphate solution at
a concentration of 2.5% gave a very high percentage of TCDVd
infection. Electrolyzed acid water and isopropanol were not effec-
tive against TCDVd, giving infection rates of more than 70%."


HOCL is electrolized water, same stuff different name. For another viroid for example for surface sterilization, it was not satisfactory and if your read the paper, only household bleach at 1% concentrations (10000ppm) was sufficiently denaturing the viroid to not cause reinfection. Remember also that having organic material weakens the effect of the bleach. Hence me saying for sanitizing surfaces etc, clean first, then bleach and also remember seed surfaces are organic materials by their nature. I'd just use the industry standard when it comes to viroids, 1000ppm HOCL I do not know but stronger bleach solutions I do, this study used a much weaker HOCL solution of 40-50ppm, and the viroid different to ours to take into account. Even in that above study, the different concentrations of bleach, from 10000ppm to 1000ppm at 15 seconds of contact and there was still decent infection rate at 1000ppm to 2500ppm. Hypochlorite disolutes into HOCL species mainly as far as I know under the PH ranges we use and within the timeframes we use solutions, so I'd hazard a guess that for HOCL or bleach one would need a concentration much higher, I calculate mine at 10000ppm of free chlorine and then contact for as long as possible to minimize any chance in sterlizing surfaces, why take chances?

I had a paper with a look at all studies done and what worked and didn't with viroids, can't find it now, but what is cheap and effective and available is bleach. I'd do more research before trying something novel. Bleach though, I can vouch for. Seeds Ive not germinated since I've culled all my plants and started over with clean tested cuts, I will soon, I will bleach the hell out them first LOL. I've had to clean tens of thousands of drippers, well get cleaned by staff, driplines, pots, tables, floors, walls, rooms greenhouses, drain troughs, egg crate bags sit on etc..so thats why I gone through a ton of bleach powder raw already probably, and after 8 months touch wood I've kept my moms from reinfection and kept the tissue lab clean with verification and PCR testing so I can safely recommend bleach, worked for me..I've gone through a fair amount of PPE for staff, you cannot cut corners with harsh chemicals.

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/623b5f3d4c76e5257401527d/t/635c29034b39565ec884aabb/1666984196529/Tool+sterilization+comprehensive+report-1.pdf

From Tumi, this would apply to seed surfaces too, making sure there is surfactant in the water used, though when it comes to HOCL they reference the same study I did in previous post, so there are no published studies on HOCL's effects on viroids at varying concentrations that I can find. So by all means try, but no reason to reinvent the wheel. One can get HTH or bleach at any supermarket, easy to measure out and make for use as needed provided you store the undiluted product right. When it comes to viroid, avoid bro science and go with science science, as it is nasty and has a habit of reinfection and being difficult to disinfect from areas. We haven't even entertained weeds around where you grow, LOL, it could have jumped to them already as assymtomatic carriers, and be reinfecting you through pests, nevermind fusarium spore carrying it, or pollen infecting your plants..Oh my...This shit is so rough. The rabbit hole so deep.