Just a good ol Craftsman socket wrench...
I don't use a torque wrench because I don't think they are useful for this application. Am I wrong?
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C.L.S. Mistakes, Failures and Malfunctions...
- Thread starter krunchbubble
- Start date
Just a good ol Craftsman socket wrench...
I don't use a torque wrench because I don't think they are useful for this application. Am I wrong?
Where might the rust be coming from? Excess water in the butane that wasn't removed by the filter dryer?
My guess is water picking up rust from the MT69 and its copper tubing. Removing all copper from the CLS is a pain, but looks to be necessary.
MAYBE that, but we are thinking it is the MT69!!!
That recovery tank was destroyed, along with the product made recently...
I'd probe inside the copper tubing of the MT-69 with something flexible and absorbent. If I found any off color traces, I'd probably cut open the tubing for further inspection, before sending a sample off for analysis...
Thanks for being open in your findings!
Chonkski
Member
They are awesome, set it to 44"lbs for Viton gaskets or 50"lbs for PTFE, and put all the doubt at ease when tightening.
Is 50lb of torque sufficient to hold back 150psi of system pressure?
On another malfunction note, the BHOghart 2" ball valve should hold back 500+psi, but is leaking like a slow coffee peculator at 65PSI
Dab Strudel
Active member
The rust is either the refrigerat hose fittings or in the tank itself imo. I get it too and I have no other place for it to come from. I overuse my filter dryer accitently so maybe he does too.
Chonkski
Member
Is 50lb of torque sufficient to hold back 150psi of system pressure?
On another malfunction note, the BHOghart 2" ball valve should hold back 500+psi, but is leaking like a slow coffee peculator at 65PSI
Well the limits vary with size, and the torque will vary depending on who you ask..
For example, the 1-1/2" high pressure clamps most commonly suggest max pressure limits of 500PSI @ 70°F or 300PSI @ 250°F.. Where as, the 12" high pressure clamps are most commonly rated for 150PSI @70°F, and 50PSI @ 250°F..
For another example, most brew shops suggest to torque down high pressure clamps on VITON to 20"lbs to achieve those ratings, but WolfWurx suggest the torque settings that I mentioned above (which is what I trust and practice).
GratefulOne
Member
Proper torque for Tri-Clamp fitting is a major issue in industry. They make special clamps to apply correct torque. These fitting require just the correct amount of torque to seal and have long gasket life.
If you over tighten the gasket is squeezed too flat and intrudes into the material area. This will also make getting a good seal harder each time the gasket is used again.
Torquing bolts/nuts is a very important issue in any machine assembly. It should never be over looked or skipped. Buy a decent torque wrench and take care of it.
The nut is made of bronze on a stainless steel bolt. This is a perfect storm for wearing out the bronze. Metals rubbing against stainless are always worn faster. Bronze is so soft this happens really fast. Add over torquing and you have the recipe for this happening. I would clean the threads and if they look good replace with a new bronze nut. I would stay with bronze (I don’t have time to explain why).
Non-PTFE gaskets need 30 INCH pounds of torque
PTFE need 50 INCH pounds.
NOTE these are INCH POUNDS and not foot pounds which are more common. Make sure your torque wrench is reading inch pounds correctly. This is NOT much force but used over the whole surface adds up.
If you need to over tighten a clamp to stop a leak then the gasket is worn out and should be replaced.
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That is most likely the culprit, been going back and forth between two gaskets...
I mean we have to TIGHTEN. I keep my body away from any parts, to scared to get shot by a nut!
HG23
Member
Great post GratefulOne.
I'm a mechanic and over tightening is a common problem with new guys in the shop. I can imagine in this application with inexperienced people dealing with flammable things the tendency to wrench on those gaskets is high.
I tried quickly googling for a chart of Tri-clamp sizes/types and torque specs for different gaskets but didn't find one, where did you get the specs?
I bet a lot of people will be very surprised what the actual amount of proper torque feels like. Inch pounds ain't much. I'm surprised the clamps come with brass nuts to hold them together, especially on the larger sizes, but with small torque specs like that there shouldn't be much issue. Each time they're tightened down, even to the proper spec, threads are stretching and wearing a little bit. I'd hate to be doing a propane run with cracked threads on the brass nuts holding 10 or 12 inch tri clamps together. Anything you're tightening and loosing many times like the clamps, nuts, line fittings and all gaskets should be inspected and replaced often. This is a regular part of closed loop maintenance. I'm wagering many of the inexperienced out there are getting into this for the money, use some of it to stay safe.
Krunch, I hope you stay safe man. I have seen shop accidents and they are no joking matter. I would replace your gaskets and clamp hardware and dust off that torque wrench. Good idea on this thread, as it seems even experienced CLS operators can get complacent.
I'm a mechanic and over tightening is a common problem with new guys in the shop. I can imagine in this application with inexperienced people dealing with flammable things the tendency to wrench on those gaskets is high.
I tried quickly googling for a chart of Tri-clamp sizes/types and torque specs for different gaskets but didn't find one, where did you get the specs?
I bet a lot of people will be very surprised what the actual amount of proper torque feels like. Inch pounds ain't much. I'm surprised the clamps come with brass nuts to hold them together, especially on the larger sizes, but with small torque specs like that there shouldn't be much issue. Each time they're tightened down, even to the proper spec, threads are stretching and wearing a little bit. I'd hate to be doing a propane run with cracked threads on the brass nuts holding 10 or 12 inch tri clamps together. Anything you're tightening and loosing many times like the clamps, nuts, line fittings and all gaskets should be inspected and replaced often. This is a regular part of closed loop maintenance. I'm wagering many of the inexperienced out there are getting into this for the money, use some of it to stay safe.
Krunch, I hope you stay safe man. I have seen shop accidents and they are no joking matter. I would replace your gaskets and clamp hardware and dust off that torque wrench. Good idea on this thread, as it seems even experienced CLS operators can get complacent.
DAMN. Im going and getting all new nuts tonight! Thats scary as fuck! I replace my seals like every other month and use my power drill set at 20(IDK what that is but seems like a good snug pressure lol) but didn't even think about the nuts! I deserve a switch kick in the nuts lol. Im always pressure checking and checking for leaks on everything every morning but the nuts never crossed my mind. Thanks Krunch!!! Awesome thread! Ill see if i can come up wtih anything to add. You probably just saved a Huge hole in my ceiling !
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montroller
Member
I was using a torque wrench set to 20 ft pounds... now I realize that was way too tight. I wonder if my gaskets are shot now lol.
I'm gunna grab one of these while they're still on sale. http://www.sears.com/craftsman-micro-clicker-torque-wrench-3-8inch-drive/p-00931423000P
I'm gunna grab one of these while they're still on sale. http://www.sears.com/craftsman-micro-clicker-torque-wrench-3-8inch-drive/p-00931423000P
kronikpain
New member
This would work better http://www.sears.com/neiko-03714-1-4-inch-200-inch-1/p-SPM1175669814
50 inch pounds is only 4.17 torque lbs! If I found the right calculator? http://www.kylesconverter.com/torque/inch--pounds-force-to-foot--pounds-force
Are we sure its only 44-50 inch pounds for viton & ptfe? Most torque wrenches only go down to 20lbs
50 inch pounds is only 4.17 torque lbs! If I found the right calculator? http://www.kylesconverter.com/torque/inch--pounds-force-to-foot--pounds-force
Are we sure its only 44-50 inch pounds for viton & ptfe? Most torque wrenches only go down to 20lbs
GratefulOne
Member
When you search for Tri-Clamp torques the 30 and 50 in pound numbers come up for everything. The special clamps and tools to prevent employees from over torquing are all set at these levels.
Note here: "Stops leaks when correctly torqued (50 in./lbs with Torque-Rite® TR-50)"
http://www.rubberfab.com/products/sanitary-gaskets/specialty-gaskets/tuf-steel
The Torque-Rite TR 50 is just a special clamp set to prevent over torquing.
If you note this on page 9 though: "all nuts are tightened to 20 ft. lb. of torque"
http://www.dftcorp.com/literature/c...tary-fittings/2013_dixon_sanitary_catalog.pdf
The bloted clamps here are noted to tighten at 20 FOOT pounds of torque.
Then note on page 10 how they talk about 50 in pounds for PTFE.
Right now I am thinking the bolted clamps need 20 foot pounds MAX. I would think to start with 50 in pounds and new gaskets. See if you get a good seal. Then increase up to 20 ft pounds max to get a seal. I will dig into this deeper and update if this turns out to be wrong.
Stick with brass nuts and inspect them. Replace any which have been over torqued (20 ft pounds).
Note here: "Stops leaks when correctly torqued (50 in./lbs with Torque-Rite® TR-50)"
http://www.rubberfab.com/products/sanitary-gaskets/specialty-gaskets/tuf-steel
The Torque-Rite TR 50 is just a special clamp set to prevent over torquing.
If you note this on page 9 though: "all nuts are tightened to 20 ft. lb. of torque"
http://www.dftcorp.com/literature/c...tary-fittings/2013_dixon_sanitary_catalog.pdf
The bloted clamps here are noted to tighten at 20 FOOT pounds of torque.
Then note on page 10 how they talk about 50 in pounds for PTFE.
Right now I am thinking the bolted clamps need 20 foot pounds MAX. I would think to start with 50 in pounds and new gaskets. See if you get a good seal. Then increase up to 20 ft pounds max to get a seal. I will dig into this deeper and update if this turns out to be wrong.
Stick with brass nuts and inspect them. Replace any which have been over torqued (20 ft pounds).
The threads of the bolt in the pic that Krunch posted look like they have been run over by a bulldozer a few times. Typical Chinese quality control.
The two bolt clamps are sold with brass nuts to prevent galling. This happens with stainless nuts on stainless bolts where the nut will cold weld itself to the bolt. The problem is worse with poor quality fasteners. Unfortunately the fasteners sold with these clamps are usually crap...
Inspect your fasteners, if the nuts are a sloppy fit on the bolt replace them with new ones. Make sure there is a bit of lube on them.
Stainless bolts really are not needed in this application since the environment is dry and not subject to caustic washdown. Take the Chinese bolts and throw them in the nearest dumpster.
Buy some new plated steel bolts and nuts from your local industrial supplier. Grade 5 or better.
Lube them with grease or never-seize and you'll never need to worry about flying nuts again.
Also inspect the flanges (ferrules) on each connection. Place them on a flat surface and check that the gasket surface is flat. This issue gets worse with larger diameter parts as it is harder to keep larger ferrules from warping during welding. A lot of this stuff has little quality control so you need to be wary...
If the mating surfaces are warped you'll need more torque on the bolts to get a good seal.
RB
The two bolt clamps are sold with brass nuts to prevent galling. This happens with stainless nuts on stainless bolts where the nut will cold weld itself to the bolt. The problem is worse with poor quality fasteners. Unfortunately the fasteners sold with these clamps are usually crap...
Inspect your fasteners, if the nuts are a sloppy fit on the bolt replace them with new ones. Make sure there is a bit of lube on them.
Stainless bolts really are not needed in this application since the environment is dry and not subject to caustic washdown. Take the Chinese bolts and throw them in the nearest dumpster.
Buy some new plated steel bolts and nuts from your local industrial supplier. Grade 5 or better.
Lube them with grease or never-seize and you'll never need to worry about flying nuts again.
Also inspect the flanges (ferrules) on each connection. Place them on a flat surface and check that the gasket surface is flat. This issue gets worse with larger diameter parts as it is harder to keep larger ferrules from warping during welding. A lot of this stuff has little quality control so you need to be wary...
If the mating surfaces are warped you'll need more torque on the bolts to get a good seal.
RB
