Bud structure differences between hydro and soil methods?

[bfap3000]

i hear what you're saying, country mon........i get the same fluffy results when growing dwc. although i have never grown soil, i don't seem to be getting the tight/hard buds that i get when i buy weed. i was thinking of trying some of this stuff next grow around to see if it tightens things up.

 

[Joe Hawkins]

Mine goes the other way around, I actually get much denser buds in hydro, and slightly less dense in outdoor

 

[lysol]

Pffft.

Dude, I've run more than 50 cycles in both. And I've seen some of the "advice" you give people here. Not impressed. Get over yourself. If you think there is no structural difference between hydro and soil buds, you are a fucking moron.

CM

Hey my names Country Mon, I know everything about bud structure but I still start threads asking but at the same time I think I know I actually don't, and I will flame you for attempting to answer my threads. :-D :-D

For my input, I have gotten extremely haystack buds, as well as rock solid. I have only done in soil and am trying DWC out now. I guess it depends on strain & light intensity / spectrum. I've gotten medical bud that fluffed apart when you touched it as well bud you couldnt cut with scissors :-D

 

[zeddius2]

Originally Posted by lysol Hey my names Country Mon, I know everything about bud structure but I still start threads asking but at the same time I think I know I actually don't, and I will flame you for attempting to answer my threads. :-D :-D

Dongle69's post deserved a flame er 2 and she knows it. Thats obviously why she edited her post. CM seems knowledgeable and is taking advice. But im sure he would rather not have it from you if you are going to mock him before you give it to him.

Sucks this is what turned out to be my 3rd post but i know cm was not going to say anything.

 

[wizberry]

Country Mon,

I can SO relate. Nothing is worse than investing a lotta time & effort growing out an elite diesel in hydro, and the buyers hate the fluffy appearance. I was reading a thread by Tranoble on another cannabis site. He mentioned that a plant will stretch less if there's less than a 10F degree difference between light & dark. I've also seen this referenced to by other growers as well, so maybe there's something to that.

Tranoble also mentioned that dropping the temp as low as possible for the last 2 weeks will make buds denser. I can attest to that working, cranking up the AC hard for the last 2 weeks seems to make the juices in the bud solidify and turn rock hard.

One thing that has lead to fluffy bud structure for me is overapplication of foliar sprays combined with too hot temps. Specifically Nitrozyme (seaweed extract) applied everyday and hot temps lead to really stringy buds. Too much cytokinins? The foliar app for Nitrozyme is supposed to be 1x weekly, btw...so my bad, nuttin bad about nitrozyme used right.

I've tried paclo and it stops growth cold, but leaves a telltale sign...an abnormal amount of red hairs. That and I prefer using a chem thats proven totally safe. I've read about gravity tho and would love to try it out.

Strangely enough, too much light can cause undesirable mini-foxtails growing out of the biggest buds. This usually only happens to the biggest bud that almost hits the light.

Strains are super important...Tho I prefer the up high, I don't even grow pure sativas anymore. It's always Indica dominant strains if I'm looking for dense buds.

Looking forward to finding out ways to densify the structure.

 

[zeddius2]

Country Mon,

I can SO relate. Nothing is worse than investing a lotta time & effort growing out an elite diesel in hydro, and the buyers hate the fluffy appearance. I was reading a thread by Tranoble on another cannabis site. He mentioned that a plant will stretch less if there's less than a 10F degree difference between light & dark. I've also seen this referenced to by other growers as well, so maybe there's something to that.

Tranoble also mentioned that dropping the temp as low as possible for the last 2 weeks will make buds denser. I can attest to that working, cranking up the AC hard for the last 2 weeks seems to make the juices in the bud solidify and turn rock hard.

One thing that has lead to fluffy bud structure for me is overapplication of foliar sprays combined with too hot temps. Specifically Nitrozyme (seaweed extract) applied everyday and hot temps lead to really stringy buds. Too much cytokinins? The foliar app for Nitrozyme is supposed to be 1x weekly, btw...so my bad, nuttin bad about nitrozyme used right.

I've tried paclo and it stops growth cold, but leaves a telltale sign...an abnormal amount of red hairs. That and I prefer using a chem thats proven totally safe. I've read about gravity tho and would love to try it out.

Strangely enough, too much light can cause undesirable mini-foxtails growing out of the biggest buds. This usually only happens to the biggest bud that almost hits the light.

Strains are super important...Tho I prefer the up high, I don't even grow pure sativas anymore. It's always Indica dominant strains if I'm looking for dense buds.

Looking forward to finding out ways to densify the structure.

If your looking for dense buds iv heard a few people complain about Mandala's Hashberry being to dense and causing mold at the end of flowering(water less and less humidity for a fix) Thought yall might be interested.

 

[wizberry]

thx zeddius2, checkin it out

 

[onioncreek]

Country Mon
I asked the same question after my first run with dwc, I grew sourbubble bx3, pre 98 bubba and chem d. I grew the sourbubble numerous time before in soil with hardass nugget results, but the dwc gave me a much leafier plant with fluffy buds. The individuals who say the get the same or tighter buds are you using dwc or ebb and flo?

 

[narutonut]

I got mixture of results in RDWC that seem to be strain and even phenotype dependent. Temps hold constant in my grow. I believe CO2 is a common solution for hardening of nugs in indoor applications.

The one thing I did notice is that all of you talking about trying DWC are reporting very high PPM concentrations and that is concerning. When I ran PPM as high as 1300's in RDWC with plenty of D/O present my plants suffered burned stunted and produced stringy herb. When I ran the same strain again at the hight of flower I was pushing 998ppm and my plants did amazing producing firm nugs and amazing frost. I have always run RDWC and in the RDWC community everyone swears by less is more when it comes to nutes.

Hope this helps.

 

[Mist]

Country Mon
I asked the same question after my first run with dwc, I grew sourbubble bx3, pre 98 bubba and chem d. I grew the sourbubble numerous time before in soil with hardass nugget results, but the dwc gave me a much leafier plant with fluffy buds. The individuals who say the get the same or tighter buds are you using dwc or ebb and flo?

I used DWC for 10 years and had nice dense buds all the time with strains that could produce them. I use and ebb&gro system now and still get nice dense buds. Of course much depends on the strain/pheno.
If you are not getting good results in DWC you may want to look at your nutrient regimen or growing style for the answer. I have seen many soil growers that have been disappointed with their first couple hydro grows. Much of the problem stems from them not staying on top of things in their systems since hydro takes a lot more attention to detaill than soil growing does. And YES I have growing in soil indoors and out.
Anyhow, what I am saying is that it may take a few grows and some tweaking of nutes and growing style to get the nice dense buds you are looking for. But be assured that they are there. You just have to coax them out properly.

 

[IamNug]

Country Mon,

my buddy swears the product bushmaster makes his nugs much denser and plants not so tall, if that is what you're looking to do with hydro. he runs that while using canna nutrients. I can attest to the success of that method.

 

[george j warner]

i get denser buds in drip hydro,Dwc, in soil outside the buds are always hard but inside i get fluffy results? any flowering superbloom technically make the buds denser aswell , also rippen (fine its a forcing finisher) i tend to use right at the end of the cycle just before the final flush get the buds super compact

i also use canna nutes

wonder if the temperature half way through flowering changes the buds structure (its been freeeeezing here last few weeks and im 2 weeks away from harvest and the buds are "unusually" solid.).

yer co2 makes em harder found that out first hand with white rhino
also the theory of using a de-humidifier to the extreme would also at the end of the flowering cycle tighten up the buds.

merry christmas

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

It is an interesting subject, for sure. So many things play into bud density. First, the stage is set by genetics. Some strains will make rocky buds under most conditions, others will make foxtails under most conditions. Moving to conditions, water is first. In any system, hydro or container or outdoor farm plot, availability of water determines total yield. This is why container growers often get lower yields of 'airy' bud. They didn't give water often enough in large enough quantity to fill out the buds. N plays a big role in density. If there's too much N during flowering, buds will continue to stretch between internodes. Container growers can find it hard to match the N reduction of hydro during flowering. Using a better draining mix with more inorganic (sand, gravel etc.) and less absorbant organics (like coco or peatmoss) during flowering can give much greater control of nutrients for the container grower. I've also come to suspect the B1 products like Superthrive as causing budstretch if used too late in flowering, any one else notice that?

Oops, almost forgot the OP's question, typical Mr. Greengenes! I have watched a friend use the Bushmaster, and I can tell you it works as advertised. Apparently, these internode distance reducing chemicals are used in standard horticulture on stuff like fuschia to make them more attractive in the store. I'm always a little skeptical about stuff like that, but I suppose it would be safe if used early in veg. And, there's the problem. When my friend used it in veg, it seemed to reduce the internode distance SO much that the plants grew slower. We both decided that was a fail. I'm sure it would be effective at reducing internodes within the bud during flowering, but personally I'd be afraid to use it that late. If you're curious, you can probably find out more from standart hort sources. Maybe something here;
http://av.rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGku...ins.com/pdf/catalog/2006/by_pages/221-230.pdf

 

[PhenotypeX]

Its all about the phenotype. If you want tight buds you need to:

A: Somehow get a clone of a phenotype that produces tight buds. Then you can grow that out and use it as a mother plant.

B: Plant a bunch of seeds and check out all the phenos. I grow alot of bagseed I find that generally 1 in 8 plants from seed is a tight/dense pheno. When you find this you need to clone it and make a clone into your mother plant.

You can order seeds online of a strain thats reported to be dense, but since they are seeds, there is a chance that only a few or possibly none of the seeds are the tight/dense pheno your looking for.

Phenotype X like my name says is a perfect pheno I am searching for and when I find it im gonna spread it around and give clones to ppl n shit.

 

[fatigues]

But I was wondering if anyone has ever figured out a method (or additive) that makes hydro buds tighten up and look more like soil-grown buds.

If you have any input on this please post it here.

Original thread is here.

Humboldt County's Own Bushmaster -- a very powerful plant hormone (paclobutrazol). In hydro, 1-2ml per gallon (when in doubt, go low with Bushmaster in hydro - 1ml per gallon).

Apply in the rez at the very end of 18/6. Switch to 12/12 lights, but continue running with Bushmaster in your veg nutes, for 2-3 days, max, assuming E&F, drip or DWC. In Aero, you might want to use even less.

Amount in rez is not as important as length of time in rez. At end of Bushmaster treatment, dump rez, switch to bloom nutes.

Internodal spacing is dropped to nothing. Stretch is essentially halted in its tracks. Plant bushes out instead, and buds expand in size and become very dense. Watch very carefully for mould.

Without Bushmaster: same strain, same nutes, same light, 1 week veg, 8 week bloom:

With Bushmaster, 2 week veg, 6 week bloom - same light, same nutes, same strain:

 

[zenoonez]

Wait you cut 2 weeks from your growing time with that stuff?

 

[fatigues]

Wait you cut 2 weeks from your growing time with that stuff?

With some strains, yes. The above pics are Sensi Star. The reduction was one week overall in the above grow. GPW went up over 1 though . It increases harvest size significantly for a lot of growers.

Paclobutrazol is not snake oil. It works as it does because you are screwing with the plant's growth hormones in a major way. It reduces grow time (somewhat, though anecdotally it seems to depend on the strain) and stops vertical height while increasing bud density. It also increases mould issues - in some strains, quite dramatically, too. Be careful.

Some people complain of a slight weakening in potency. This may be affected by not going by the trichome ambers and instead judging the feel of the plant, which looks more pronounced and "off" than it would be normally. Trust your microscope/loupe, not your eyes.

It's problematic for many to use in hydro. But nearly all the bad reports on it were from the first few years after it was first released. People ran it too strong - and for too long. There were a lot of ruined crops as a result.

Recommended hydro strength was adjusted downwards from 4 to, ultimately, only 1 ml/g.

When in doubt, 1ml/g and not very long in the rez, as noted above. Respect this stuff and don't screw around with it. It's powerful shit.

Some swear by it; others swear at it. Whatever the case, Bushmaster certainly fits the request made by the OP so I answered accordingly.

 

[Lazyman]

I've done soil, hydro, and coco, had good hard buds with all of them if they were dialed in right.

Besides lots of light and strain issues, I've heard that rotating plants in flower can cause this (phototropism.) I'm doing a run now to compare rotating vs non rotating.

 

[quest]

Some people are talking outdoor soil