Bohemian Graftcity

[ScrogMonster]

Based on the pics, you're running a 6" fan on each panel, which means you've got 56.5 square inches of draw. - it’s actually one 6” 440cfm fan pulling air through a duct ‘T’ and two lines and both fixtures in the tent.

The reason I point all this out is so you can measure the space and find a happy medium between the two. ——If the holes being too small is the issue, why wouldn’t drilling all those holes around the bulbs help at least a little?! If the temp was going down at all I’d have just kept adding holes until it stopped giving results but it it never made anything better and it actually seemed to get 1-2 degrees hotter...

Another thing to consider other than surface area of openings, is that with your panels, you're sideways. Since heat rises inside the panel, meaning you should extract heat from the top, or as near the top as possible. The panel acts as a light trap, so you can pretty much run the exhaust straight out the tops of the tent. ——- because the fixtures are sideways and the heat that does come off will rise I’m thinking I should just go ahead and cut a bunch of 2x2” pieces of plexi and raise the boards to be just barely over the LED’s and seal the fixtures completely and cool them separately. I’m betting just one 240cfm fan should be enough to cool two sealed fixtures. With separate air cooling though my 440cfm fans are definitely gonna be overkill for these 2x4’ tents... one has a dial... I’ll probably get another dial and dial the power down a bit on them.



Hope all this helps!—- thank you!

Thanks for that thorough explanation! I’m gonna try and do the square inch math on that later.

 

[Terpene]

Thanks for that thorough explanation! I’m gonna try and do the square inch math on that later.

Hey scrog,

The small holes should help a little (though turbulence of the small openings does complicate things), but I honestly think you're fighting a battle against:

• Not enough intake surface area to exhaust surface area
• Heat rise inside the panels
• Heat not exhausting properly though the holes in the panels

The easiest way for you to test panel flow is to cut a couple pieces of 2x4s and raise the mounting surface of the whole light array within the panels. That should push the bulbs forward just under 2 inches, which should be just about right to look like my setup. If that doesn't work:

Consider that your bulbs will tend to release heat off the face of the diodes up into the roof of the tent - in my setup, the panel effectively forces the rising heat into the exhaust system.

Heat not entering the panel could be a non issue - especially if your air change rate is 3-5x the volume of the tent. BUT, if it is, building a fully enclosed plexi panel over the bulbs in a true cooltube fashion might be the best solution. Suck in cool air from the bottom of the panel, exhaust through the top and line the inside in mylar since its going to be facing the other ultra bright panel. Keep in mind that each panel will still need 1.5-2x the intake vs exhaust surface area, so each panel will need 45-60 square inches of intake (aka five to six 3.5" holes, six to seven 3" holes, a 2"x30" slot, etc..)

The only annoying thing about the plexi panel - having to unscrew it when you have to change bulbs out. Granted, my LEDs last about 4-5 years in my setups, so you won't be doing it often.

 

[starke]

Hey scrog,

The small holes should help a little (though turbulence of the small openings does complicate things), but I honestly think you're fighting a battle against:

• Not enough intake surface area to exhaust surface area
• Heat rise inside the panels
• Heat not exhausting properly though the holes in the panels

The easiest way for you to test panel flow is to cut a couple pieces of 2x4s and raise the mounting surface of the whole light array within the panels. That should push the bulbs forward just under 2 inches, which should be just about right to look like my setup. If that doesn't work:

Consider that your bulbs will tend to release heat off the face of the diodes up into the roof of the tent - in my setup, the panel effectively forces the rising heat into the exhaust system.

Heat not entering the panel could be a non issue - especially if your air change rate is 3-5x the volume of the tent. BUT, if it is, building a fully enclosed plexi panel over the bulbs in a true cooltube fashion might be the best solution. Suck in cool air from the bottom of the panel, exhaust through the top and line the inside in mylar since its going to be facing the other ultra bright panel. Keep in mind that each panel will still need 1.5-2x the intake vs exhaust surface area, so each panel will need 45-60 square inches of intake (aka five to six 3.5" holes, six to seven 3" holes, a 2"x30" slot, etc..)

The only annoying thing about the plexi panel - having to unscrew it when you have to change bulbs out. Granted, my LEDs last about 4-5 years in my setups, so you won't be doing it often.

What he said.

I think you can achieve temp control by sizing intake and flow correctly with mods to your fixtures. I would view the plexi as the last resort for several reasons: The stuff is expensive and is a pain to cut. It is even a bigger PITA to drill holes for screws without cracking the stuff.

(EDIT)The one thing I swore was if I ever built another air cooled fixture, I would cut dado grooves in the bottom to slide the plexi into - eliminating the screws.

Speaking from experience. A for sure solution but also the biggest hassle.

 

[ScrogMonster]

Thanks for the air cooling tips Terpene and Starke, I appreciate you guys.

I added a 240cfm vivosun inline duct booster type between the T and filter box and I added a shitload more holes around each bulb... a fill cramped circle to circle and a half.. the airflow got noticeably much better but the temp differential only went down a couple degrees. Still at about 16 degrees difference. I can buy one piece of plexi and cut into small squares to cover each hole and I think instead of trying to drill holes in the plexi for screws I'll just use some silicone and aluminum tape to hold the squares over the holes.

soon.... Right now I have bigger fish to fry unfortunately.

hey just thought id add more to the confusion

was researching something and came across pics of what looked like yours
so i thought id mention these



root aphids

gimage search root aphids
your symptons dont fully match up to broad or russet mites - the leaf cupping for one, are u seeing any of that?

Boyd - I really wish I had immediately read all the info and seen all the pictures and inspected these fuckers enough to realize that I should have acted immediately... or listened to SuperBadGrower or Catman who chimed in right after suggestion quick action.

Man both the plants in my flowering tents were having issues and I thought it was just the russet mites I had been battling but after foliar spraying LCPT regularly for a good bit and seeing both plants still declining I finally had to admit to myself that I had a new pest in my garden that I hadn't had the displeasure of dealing with before that is... I dunno the worse it would seem. I thought spider mites were the worst before I met Russet mites... then I figured those are the worst for sure... now I'm thinking I should just say all pests are just bad because I'm afraid if I call Root Aphids the worst a sworm of locusts will come strip all my plants down to bare stem lol.

I'm reading all up on it and if any one has first hand experience dealing with these bastards or even solid second hand knowledge of something that works well please chip in.

Currently reading the sticky "fungus gnats or winged root aphids?" and other threads on the topic. I might start sterilizing my soil... I might switch to hydro as much as I'd rather not.... I might have to throw out the Franken Tangelo plant as it's looking pretty shitty... I was Going to flower it today... I'm considering pitching my MOMF :'( after rooting the 4 genes she's carrying that I don't want to lose.

I'll probably get some Root Cleaner to try an keep them at bay while I finish out my 2nd cycle of the Lemon Meringue plant that's half way through flower.

 

[ScrogMonster]

Are these wilting droopy yellow leaves on my flowering Lemon Meringue plant signs of Root Aphid damage?

This is what the grafted up franken Tangelo is looking like right now. It has grown a bunch since I cut it off the MOMF and put it in the tent but the growth was only really noticeable after a whole month. It had been growing incredibly slow and looking progressively worse and now looks like this.

 

[ScrogMonster]

The plant is big enough to flower and is supposed to start flowering today but is it too damaged? should I just scrap it?!

 

[ScrogMonster]

Alright well... I got some biological controls on the way. Botanigard WP 22 (Bausserva Basserasa(not actually spelling) it’s a fungus that kills RA. I also ordered Gnatrol as one person said it’s worked to use about 4x strength weekly for a good 4-5 weeks for RA and this way I won’t have any gnats either hopefully. I’ve also read that using smart pots one is less likely to have a RA problem and if they do get an infestation it’s likely they’ll do way less damage due the branches out air pruned structure of the roots its like having your eggs in many many baskets instead of a few baskets (long circling roots in a hard pot) where RA’s do more damage more easily.

The hydro store guy thinks that just 7gal would be enough soil for a square meter canopy and 600w of LED and that the unused soil before the roots can spread out being Stagnent or what have you can lead to these issues.

My girls are in 15 plus gallons of soil right now...

You guys think I should use less soil?

Maybe I’ll compromise and try the next round in a 10gal smart pot I dunno. I really do a proper sub irrigation set up so maybe I’ll do a DIY earthbox tote similar to the one shown in Terpenes

The sub irrigation set up I have going doesn’t seem to be working quite right or maybe the plant hasn’t been drawing enough or have enough roots cause of the Aphids maybe it’d work just fine if the plant was healthier.

I’m rambling

 

[ScrogMonster]

So I got controls for the RA’s on the way and have decided to try and keep everything and treat the soil and take measurements against fighting the already of them. While I’m waiting for Botanigard and Gnatrol I have the soil covers off and DE sprinkled all over the soil hoping to kill some off and slow them down that way.

Some good news is today I noticed an Air layering on my MOMF had rooted so I cut off to veg separately and be my next flower plant. I’ll probably wait to add grafts until I see it growing nice and healthy. It’s a GG cut, my favorite and I haven’t had it rotation for a minute so I might not even bother woth grafts or I’ll just do a few when it’s almost ready to flower

The upside down can is a little water res, it keeps just a 1/8” about of water in that little tray. I drilled a bunch of holes in the small planter to make it an “airpot” so the roots can get air pruned.

It’s optic acrylic I ended up going with to seal off my light fixtures and cutting the 3” squares is coming along nicely.

 

[catman]

Live and learn. Aphids are the worst. In retrospect, the signs were there months ago.



What do you mean seal off the lights? Whatever you do, those duct booster fans don't handle static pressure well so give them plenty of intake surface area. Also it's usually best to run fans in parallel rather than serial. Instead of ==fan==fan===fan==, you'll move air with 3 different "pipes" assuming the intake is sufficient.

==fan==
==fan==
==fan==



I do realize duct boosters are marketed to run in serial situations.

 

[ScrogMonster]

Gosh damnit I posted my pictures of my “Root Aphids” in the ‘fungus gnat or root aphids’ sticky... and a couple dudes replied with hey those are soil mites!! Hypoaspis miles!! Predators to fungus gnats!! Good guys!! I did a google and sure as fuckin shit they’re correct!! .....

Now I don’t know what to do... I just spent 113$ on Botanigard and Gnatrol... will either of these kill these friendly predator mites? I definitely have gnats or aphids as well though cause I have flyers. I’m pretty sure I have both Gnats and Aphids.

Anybody know what this garbage is?!

I found that chillin on my MOMF’s soil.

I’ve had all soil covers off and a good layer of DE on top for three or four days now.

I’ll probably just use the Botanigard and Gnatrol I paid for to kill any RA’s or Gnats that might be in any of my soils...

Any one know if it’s okay to use both at the same time? Can I mix em with organic liquid food?

Probably gonna.

Gonna hurry up air cool my lights too so at least my temps will be nice.

Catman by seal off my light fixtures meaning I’m going to raise the plywood to be just past the LEDs and glue/tape these squares of acrylic over the holes and use one or two (whatever it takes I bought four) of these 6” 240cfm fans to pull air from outside the tent, through the fixtures, and back out the tent just like cool tubes and HID’s then I’ll have my normal fan/filter combo sucking from the top of the tent separately as it was before. Temps will be barely above ambient if not the same as ambient I’m sure.

 

[blynx]

White stuff looks like some sort of soil fungus that is fruiting. Shouldn't be harmful to the plant.

 

[ScrogMonster]

Thanks Blynx that’s some good news.

After looking at things and thinking more about things and taking some very intrusive up close sort of funny pictures of a few fungus gnats covered in DE suffering...

You know these are gnats because their abdomen and thorax are distinct - they appear as separate units and not one cohesive unit as an adult flyer RA appears.

I’ve drawn the conclusion now that I almost for sure don’t have RA’s and just have some fungus gnats and hypoaspis miles - friendly predator mites that eat fungus gnat larva that FF likes to put in their soil to combat gnats...

I also noticed I’m not the only person out there mistaking them for RA’s and freaking out. Some one on roll it up dot whatever is/was pretty pissed that fox farm doesn’t have a warning on the bag that they’re there and not to be concerned if you see them. Good point too cause a lot of people will literally throw out everything that they have to include their exhaust fans when they think they have RA’s! Chances are at least one person has hit the reset button because of faux RA’s.

 

[catman]

I'm no pest expert, but if you think you don't have aphids, what's going on with your plants above ground?



Because to me, that looks like aphid damage I've seen first hand. Those fuckers are hard not to notice on leafs and stems so I'm assuming you haven't seen any signs of them. They also shed their outer skin and leave white skeletons behind. There's many different kinds of aphids and it's only some that stay under ground.

 

[PCBuds]

Any updates ScrogMonster?


Did you kill those bugs?

 

[Boyd Crowder]

bruh
you having any luck against your ra's?
ive found that fungus gnats and root aphids are often found together
i thought that those microscopic buggers were hypo's too
but then quickly realized they are the micro RA's

what ive been doing is dunking my root balls in
insect soap or imid or gch for 10 minutes
kills most everything
i use lanscape fabric to hold the rootball together
and the one thing ive found that absolutely kills everything
is orthene/acephate fireant killer
i get the 50% strength at lowes
a half gram in a 5 gallon feeding kills everything
im gonna wager you have flyers in other areas of your home too
if not in your kitchen with the drain/fruit/bread or trashcan, then in some houseplants

im trying to kill them all in any area of my house and its damn near impossible
fall is coming and they have disapeared before overwinters but yo

thats me YRMV

hope you are still working on your experiments
post up sometime bro

 

[ScrogMonster]

Hey Boyd, thanks for thinking of me. I’m still so sure if I even had them. I’m leaning towards that I didn’t, but had other problems going on and just gnats and hypo’s I treated everything with some biologicals anyway cause I had already ordered it but I ended up giving up on both the flowering plants. The two cycle Lemon Meringue plant started dying off branch after branch end of week 4 and the last died around 5 maybe, it was all still good smoke at least, surprisingly/ for as immature as it was it really was decent. The other one with all the grafts was looking shitty and I just wanted start over. Then some stuff happened with the house I was renting and I needed to clean up so the Landlord could walk through. We were already looking for a bigger house to rent and we found a great one. I decided I wanted to switch to cabinets. So I’m almost done with building my first cabinet right now. I’m really excited about it. I’m gonna be doing a foax wood grain on particle 3/8 particle board. So the cabs are cheap to build but should look nice. I have all my strains I like alive in two small boxes right now. Probably after I get my first cabinet done and get some plants living in it I’ll start a new thread.

 

[Boyd Crowder]

good for you!