polyflowerbud
Member
wow - very well put Frenchy #POWER EQUALITY
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Bipolarity and hallucinogens -anyone?
- Thread starter Runt
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Croissant: That was a main issue on yage -loss. I lost my brother when he was 15 (I was 18) but was never allowed to grieve in any way. This emerged along with all the other losses of family, friends etc -there´s quite a few. Sadness alas is something I often feel now which is of course sad but loads better than the anger I´ve been expressing most of my grow life.
Croissant
Member
that sounds like the yage was a powerful experience in that sense then. I have been wanting to try it.
when it comes to psychadelics is that they have the potential to break though to those painfull spaces but it is equally possible to essentially just incorporate bits and pieces into a new sort of fantasy structure to keep from directly accessing it. In fact that is what I believe happens so we can make sense of it. It is like we see parts of a very large pattern in our lives then we create a fiction to make sense of this "newly" made conscious material.
The substance that seems the most promising is the Iboga, although it is extremely powerful and if contraindicated can kill you.
when it comes to psychadelics is that they have the potential to break though to those painfull spaces but it is equally possible to essentially just incorporate bits and pieces into a new sort of fantasy structure to keep from directly accessing it. In fact that is what I believe happens so we can make sense of it. It is like we see parts of a very large pattern in our lives then we create a fiction to make sense of this "newly" made conscious material.
The substance that seems the most promising is the Iboga, although it is extremely powerful and if contraindicated can kill you.
If I was a smack addict I´d jump at iboga but it seems very different from yage. If you do the yage process properly I think it has a lot of potential but done without set/setting I wouldn´t bet on it. The schaman I worked with had 40 years of experience and he was a very good guide. I stayed at the retreat for two weeks (a pretty short spell for presonal growth) and I still have room for change 
but at least now I can see the room.
but at least now I can see the room.
Croissant
Member
This is essentially a web site for "addicts." Just because your addiction isn't "smack," doesn't mean you won't be dealing with the same psychological patterns. Iboga has a much longer history than it's "discovery" within the modern western context that it is currently being framed in.
In any case I don't think those types of substances are really a replacement for an analysis with a psychoanalyst. I would be wary of shamans as well, any sort of guru figure really.
In any case I don't think those types of substances are really a replacement for an analysis with a psychoanalyst. I would be wary of shamans as well, any sort of guru figure really.
“The shaman is not merely a sick man, or a madman; he is a sick man who has healed himself.”
― Terence McKenna, The Invisible Landscape: Mind, Hallucinogens & the I Ching
Modern psychiatry and pharmacology could not solve what psychedelics have, and you will see them unfold in medical use as you have marijuana.
Modern pharmacology is still chasing the tail of ethnobotanicals because of their untapped potential that science itself can't manufacture on a scale close to what is already represented, which is also evolutionary tested against our genome, being it is a part of our ambient environment.
People who partake in weed are using psychedelics like a shaman, or psych meds like a mental patient, whatever stigmatized labels we use the dynamics remain the same.
The problem child of psychedelics is that they magnify your being, and if you use it without knowledge and command of this, you can be subject to your latent subconscious desires.
Turn on, Tune in, Drop out IMHO was also a great way to disengage and disenfranchise American youth from participating and thus effecting the American political system.
It is one thing to separate from the way of the world to find humanitarian integrity but to stay disengaged and separated is so to perpetuate the same microcosm of dysfunction that generation was fighting against.
This is how humans work, they don't think out causation, they think sequentially, linearly, one thought at a time, without linking them together and trying to understand the underlying causation full circle. So injecting psychedelics can cause deviations from a norm without a desired endgame.
If you use them with the intent of healing ones self, addressing ones most life limiting beliefs and emotions to transcend the effects they impose, they will offer a much better effect.
You cannot expect them to be more than a catalyst, there has to be intent and desire to pull off the full monty, and also the abstract of time is manipulated by psychedelics but never completely removed. That is, sometimes we need to have a psychedelic experience and apply the insight we gleaned to life and see how the results pan out.
Use of ethobotanicals and entheogens use should be a basic human right, especially since we have evolved to poses a relationship with them. They work for a reason.
Croissant
Member
I enjoyed Terrence McKenna as much as the next guy the thing is that The "Shaman" fits contextually within their societal structure. We have a different societal structure today.
Our perception of the Shaman and the "noble savage" trope in general is an aspect of our own culture we project onto other cultures. Their is a general feeling that something is missing or has been lost as our societies entered modernity so we project that part of ourself into some golden era of the past or some other fetishized culture. So we are already primed for an other that fits our "Mr. Miyagi" other. Mr. Miyagi or Yoda in fact epitomizes this fantasy other that is in fact an aspect of our own psyche.
The issue is that leaves one open to extreme abuses and manipulation by someone we falsely identify as our Mr. Miyagi. Precisely because the Mr. Miyagi other is a psychic construction where we hide aspects of our self we are afraid to access. "The other suppoced to know," is a projection though and a necessary identification to create the transference. The issue with the cognitive behavioral and much of mainstream psychiatry is they deny transference and actually self identify as "the one who knows" or of having direct access to the body of the one who knows and acting in their name, be that "science," or god or whatever the fuck.
Our perception of the Shaman and the "noble savage" trope in general is an aspect of our own culture we project onto other cultures. Their is a general feeling that something is missing or has been lost as our societies entered modernity so we project that part of ourself into some golden era of the past or some other fetishized culture. So we are already primed for an other that fits our "Mr. Miyagi" other. Mr. Miyagi or Yoda in fact epitomizes this fantasy other that is in fact an aspect of our own psyche.
The issue is that leaves one open to extreme abuses and manipulation by someone we falsely identify as our Mr. Miyagi. Precisely because the Mr. Miyagi other is a psychic construction where we hide aspects of our self we are afraid to access. "The other suppoced to know," is a projection though and a necessary identification to create the transference. The issue with the cognitive behavioral and much of mainstream psychiatry is they deny transference and actually self identify as "the one who knows" or of having direct access to the body of the one who knows and acting in their name, be that "science," or god or whatever the fuck.
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I think Weird and I have pretty much the same take on this, Western psychotherapy has it´s + and - but one could just say that we in the Western world have lost the "spirit" and only stare at ego and social issues. Not regarding ourselves as spiritual beings puts constraints on what psychiatry can achieve. Yage puts you in contact with your spiritual side, something well documeneted when research was done on LSD and psilocybin. You can achieve the trandenscental through fasting, meditation etc -plants etc are just another approach.
Croissant
Member
Runt, I am merely informing you that "Western Psychotherapy," is much more diverse than you might imagine. Their are particular modalities that I think are technologies of oppression, such as Psychiatry, The conginitive Behavioral and western Mindfullness crap, and the old school American strains of Psychoanlysis known as Ego Psychology. The same or similar critiques I would weigh against those forms of psychotherapy I would also weigh against many self identified "gurus," and so called "shamans" or often even worst.
I am merely warning you to be careful. Their is a phenomena known as "transference," that occurs in the types of relationships one has with a shaman, guru, doctor, or therapist. Where we transfer to them the "one suppoced to know," which puts them into a position to exploit our insecurities because we are in denial or negation of those aspects of ourself, so when we are being exploited we can experience a type of cognitive dissonance because they are the "one suppoced to know," and perceiving of them that way allows us access to our insecurities in a way that feels good which creates a sort of dependence on them. What I describe is what most in those "new age" movements are exploiting in their followers.
I am more than familiar with Terrence McKenna, Carl Jung, Tool, and have studied a number of tribal societies religions partially because my ex was a cultural anthropologist. I have also known many new agers and am aware of how they appropriate other cultures to fill in the chinks in their ego. It is nothing new and I have done it myself. It is actually very common, the Burgois westerner goes slumming to boost their self esteem to discover their "true self," think of the movie Titanic that was essentially the storyline of that film. Is that really much different than when a newly graduated college student goes to costa rica for a couple weeks or even when someone goes to Las Vegas? I think not I think it functions in the same way. Essentially we feel something missing in our lives we project onto "the exotic" then seek the exotic as a way to feel more authentic. Except that the exotic we were seeking was a part of ourself we projected not necessarily the reality of what we projected upon.
The thing is that creates an industry, a sort of industry for Charlatans to fill that position of the guru, shaman, or exotic other that will help you find your true self or feel more authentic or whatever. Precisely because of this these so called "shamans" are an extension of our western culture and are taken completely out of their traditional context within a traditional tribal community. This often ends up being a form of exploitation on both ends. The position the west allows, the foreigner is a function of our own narcissistic needs and if the foreigner wants to feel apart of the modern economy or community that has status they are left to self identify with our projections onto their culture.
What this leads to us often is some sort of New agey self righteous guru figure that assumes that role of authority in our psyche. The thing is they are often so self righteous that they use that power to manipulate and exploit. You may have become disenfranchised on one road so you are taking another one the issues remain the same except they come packaged differently. All I am really saying is be wary of gurus they are often charlatans.
"Think for yourself question authority" -Timothy Leory
"All glory to the hypnotoad!" -Futurama
I am merely warning you to be careful. Their is a phenomena known as "transference," that occurs in the types of relationships one has with a shaman, guru, doctor, or therapist. Where we transfer to them the "one suppoced to know," which puts them into a position to exploit our insecurities because we are in denial or negation of those aspects of ourself, so when we are being exploited we can experience a type of cognitive dissonance because they are the "one suppoced to know," and perceiving of them that way allows us access to our insecurities in a way that feels good which creates a sort of dependence on them. What I describe is what most in those "new age" movements are exploiting in their followers.
I am more than familiar with Terrence McKenna, Carl Jung, Tool, and have studied a number of tribal societies religions partially because my ex was a cultural anthropologist. I have also known many new agers and am aware of how they appropriate other cultures to fill in the chinks in their ego. It is nothing new and I have done it myself. It is actually very common, the Burgois westerner goes slumming to boost their self esteem to discover their "true self," think of the movie Titanic that was essentially the storyline of that film. Is that really much different than when a newly graduated college student goes to costa rica for a couple weeks or even when someone goes to Las Vegas? I think not I think it functions in the same way. Essentially we feel something missing in our lives we project onto "the exotic" then seek the exotic as a way to feel more authentic. Except that the exotic we were seeking was a part of ourself we projected not necessarily the reality of what we projected upon.
The thing is that creates an industry, a sort of industry for Charlatans to fill that position of the guru, shaman, or exotic other that will help you find your true self or feel more authentic or whatever. Precisely because of this these so called "shamans" are an extension of our western culture and are taken completely out of their traditional context within a traditional tribal community. This often ends up being a form of exploitation on both ends. The position the west allows, the foreigner is a function of our own narcissistic needs and if the foreigner wants to feel apart of the modern economy or community that has status they are left to self identify with our projections onto their culture.
What this leads to us often is some sort of New agey self righteous guru figure that assumes that role of authority in our psyche. The thing is they are often so self righteous that they use that power to manipulate and exploit. You may have become disenfranchised on one road so you are taking another one the issues remain the same except they come packaged differently. All I am really saying is be wary of gurus they are often charlatans.
"Think for yourself question authority" -Timothy Leory
"All glory to the hypnotoad!" -Futurama
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Croissant
Member
I am agreeing with you that hallucinogens allow you access to a spiritual component of our psyche. But someone who takes hallucinogens =/= the Terence McKenna conception of Shaman. Their are a lot of stories about a curupt and exploitative shaman industry. I have personally seen a lot of people think western medicine =BAD then give blind faith to new age stuff and those types tend to be ripe for being exploited and often commit abuses in the name of their new found beliefs.
It would be easy for me to just shower you with yay drugs are awesome praises. The difficult thing is to offer someone the discourse to asses where they are in their own fantasy because that typically involves a painfull look at ones situation.
Hallucinagens are very powerful and their is a dangerous undercurrent of new age cults integrated into its subculture you should be aware of or anyone thinking of going down that path.
Caveat Emptar
It would be easy for me to just shower you with yay drugs are awesome praises. The difficult thing is to offer someone the discourse to asses where they are in their own fantasy because that typically involves a painfull look at ones situation.
Hallucinagens are very powerful and their is a dangerous undercurrent of new age cults integrated into its subculture you should be aware of or anyone thinking of going down that path.
Caveat Emptar
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