big plant ppk

[DaveTheNewbie]

Hey Delta! Thanks for everything you've done so far! I need help from you guys. I wanna run Pureknowledges organic amended soil mix but want to implement your PPK. How would I make this work? I plan to use what HL45 has as containers (or should I use something else?). I plan to use a room the size that HL45 has, roughly. I don't want a bunch of particles falling into the bottom bucket and mixing into the controller bucket. I would most likely set up a top feed and have it go on a certain amount each day or so. I am open to all ideas, thanks fellas!

i have no idea or experience about this, its just a thought :

would flushing (watering) every hour not flush out all the nutes from the soil? Would it not be too wet? Normally you dont water amended soil once a day. Im waiting for a more experienced person to comment here because im very interested in the answers.

 

[delta9nxs]

Hello D9.. I see you've been busy! I've been trying to get environment and 'process timing' down and havent paid close attention to your threads.. sucess is hard to part with
but let me ask, when was it that you found the 1/2" hose is OK? WAY BACK (PPK Thred) I thought the thought process was that it exchanged juice too fast. Does your new (to me) controll within pulse tub that quicker exchange is OK? I'm happy as hell with the tire valve 3/8 black tube but the 1/2 inch tube and 1/2" plastic connections would be easier to work with, although a little more expensive... just getting around to building a screen for the NAPA floor dry, been just washing it 2-3 times.. works ok but your new designs have me thinking.. I thought you reached your PPK satifaction level when you moved and built your new space. I shoulda known you didnt.. you've made me an addict... a PPK addict..>>>forever thankful for you direction..

"environment and 'process timing' down"

it's very rewarding to see people realize their potential. soon we will be seeing "snook" brand cannabis packs in vending machines at the "Get Your Shit and Split" quickie mart. your avatar on the label but he has to have a big fat joint in his mouth and a grin on his face. bloodshot eyes...

"havent paid close attention to your threads.."

what! how could this be?

forkup has it right on the reasoning. when imaginary friend began using the saturation pulse i could tell by his reactions that he had really seen something.

i was not in a position to try it at the time and now i have. i like it, while it may or may not grow a bigger or better plant (i haven't personally proven it yet), it is certainly easier to use than a wave type pulse.

this is because there is much less decision making and experience necessary to use it. full is full. so the variables that go along with the decision making are gone and the need to deal with them. a whole set of judgments that you now don't have to make.

there is still the interval between but that will always be dependent on choice of medium and your particular environment.

i say i haven't proven it because i have not managed to get through an entire plant lifespan fully utilizing it. but it does look like the shit.

my plants got so huge so fast it was scary.

 

[delta9nxs]

I believe MULE MIX is another calcined clay product which may be available to those who cant source Turface.

nice find! anyplace in the world where ancient rivers periodically flooded flat plains and created standing water will have clay.

 

[delta9nxs]

Is there 'engineering' (more pics) of your new pulse/control rez, in one of your other threads, D9?
What happened to all the pictures in those other threads.. doo they still exist?

this is all i have up right now. but it's so simple and direct that it is almost self- explanatory.

an animated graphic depicting the pulse, drain, and return to equilibrium cycle would be cool. a start button and then it goes through the cycle.

 

[delta9nxs]

heh im not a fan of hydro shop products with names like big shark and bitey fish and grow-hard-monster-nuggs or DutchBlasterOrganicGodStick etc

but as i understand it peters has no silica in it, nor humic or fulvic.
as i understand it the mediums you use are inert and dont break down over time.

so im dubious that your getting as much silica as you could use, nor any fulvic/humic.

these things i have found amazingly good to use, especially with bigger plants.

as to what brand name : i dont care. i use powders from kelp4less.com but im sure there is 100 other shops that are as good.

i would suggest you try getting these products in for a grow and measure the difference. A little goes a long way.

oh, i agree that i should try some other stuff! i just have been so focused on mechanics that i did not want to blur the issues any further by introducing even more variables.

i still won't buy products from the grow store if i can help it. walmart runs the whole show on a 12% averaged markup and makes billions so it just burns me to have to make somebodies payment on their beamer just to get some nutes. this is what is wrong with the whole industry.

i understand that everyone wants to make a lot of money and there is nothing wrong with that unless you are gouging. then it becomes an obscene monster, a perverted beast whose existence is only maintained by lying and cheating people who work hard for their money.

worm poo leachate for the humics and fulvics and a handful of rice hulls for the silica. the rice hulls have the highest silica content in the plant world (almost 20%) and they do break down somewhat during a grow.

but for now i still don't want to cloud the mechanical resolution process by complicating it personally. i will probably cloud it later real good though.

 

[delta9nxs]

Hey Delta! Thanks for everything you've done so far! I need help from you guys. I wanna run Pureknowledges organic amended soil mix but want to implement your PPK. How would I make this work? I plan to use what HL45 has as containers (or should I use something else?). I plan to use a room the size that HL45 has, roughly. I don't want a bunch of particles falling into the bottom bucket and mixing into the controller bucket. I would most likely set up a top feed and have it go on a certain amount each day or so. I am open to all ideas, thanks fellas!

hi, and welcome to the asylum!

i don't know anything about his mix but if it has all the ferts in it already then you just want to add water, right?

you will have to do a series of experiments, small, informal ones, that will show you the extent of the perched water table with that medium and how fast it can be drained. then you can determine the watering frequency.

you will also need to find a material to use in the tailpieces that will not clog with fine particle yet still will move a lot of water.

what is fascinating to me about this, and i think this needs to be carefully considered before a plant goes in it, is that the solution will accumulate and remix, and therefore reuse all nutrient substances until they are depleted or you harvest.

so it all needs to be carefully crafted to adhere to the principles of molecular mass balance, which basically means that everything you add to the system is still in it somewhere all the way to the end. either in the plant, the medium, or the solution.

you should only input water and have it all come out perfectly. this is very hard to do with organic amendments as they are hard to measure.

 

[Snook]

this is all i have up right now. but it's so simple and direct that it is almost self- explanatory.

an animated graphic depicting the pulse, drain, and return to equilibrium cycle would be cool. a start button and then it goes through the cycle.

I'm not understan the idea of the 1 gallon control tub inside the pulse rez, equlibrium I understand. I'm guessing there's a hole in the bottom of the 1 gal container, but why not the float valve in the side of the 27gallon tub, wo the 1 gallon bolted to the side? dont need animation.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

^so that the reservoir doesnt get auto topped off too fast during a feed cycle.

The hole in the bottom of the small container slows the water level dropping (directly around the float valve).. while water gets sent to the plants before returning to the res.

i still won't buy products from the grow store if i can help it. walmart runs the whole show on a 12% averaged markup and makes billions so it just burns me to have to make somebodies payment on their beamer just to get some nutes. this is what is wrong with the whole industry.

i understand that everyone wants to make a lot of money and there is nothing wrong with that unless you are gouging. then it becomes an obscene monster, a perverted beast whose existence is only maintained by lying and cheating people who work hard for their money.

I've got some buddies that run hydro shops and it isnt all that it is cracked up to be. It is not the retail shops that are making a killing anymore, it is the manufacturers and distributors. Don't think a lot of these guys deserve the "hydro whore" titles they've been so known to receive.. not anymore at least.

They used to do very well, but since the whole hydroponics scene has blown up it has created price wars in which the manufacturers and major distributors are trying to eliminate by slashing the margins. I've seen what my buddy pays for shit wholesale and what it goes sold for. Its pathetic. Maybe the guys in med states are killing it in volume, but he pays the bills and that is about it...all while getting bitched at like he's gouging people.

Used to buy a bottle of nutes for $10 and sell it for $20 before discounts.

Now he is finding that the manufactuers are increasing the wholesale cost all while at the same time reducing the MSRP of said products. The margins are getting fucked... factor in the deep discounts many shops are offering to compete with the influx of new stores (and online dropshippers) and the profits after brick and mortar expenses are minimal.

I'm sure there is still lots of money to be made, and my hydro friends are resorting to buying direct from China to continue to compete, but they certainly aren't becoming millionaires in the retail hydro shop industry.

Maybe it is different elsewhere, but round here I don't think the hydro retailers deserve the bad rep they get from everyone, and certainly not from all of the "for profit" growers bitching about spending a few thousand on equipment only to quadruple or more their investment their very 1st grow.

 

[delta9nxs]

I'm not understan the idea of the 1 gallon control tub inside the pulse rez, equlibrium I understand. I'm guessing there's a hole in the bottom of the 1 gal container, but why not the float valve in the side of the 27gallon tub, wo the 1 gallon bolted to the side? dont need animation.

you don't need animation, i was just thinking about one for new people. yes, there is a 3/64" hole in the bottom of the small one gal container. rubbermaid.

i think this acts as a volume input controller so to speak. it slows the input of fresh solution. i think this keeps the solution more stable over the long term plus it takes a load off the float mechanism.

the pump fires and puts out a lot of water fast. evacuating the reservoir and creating an instant demand on a float valve situated in the normal fashion, which would be straight to the reservoir sidewall and not to a smaller container first.

this causes an almost immediate full volume flow from the float.

since there is a delay on the pumped out water returning to the reservoir a lot of fresh solution comes in through the float valve.

this volume plus the volume originally in the system just before the pump fires, creates an overburden from an engineering point of view that puts an unnecessary strain on the float mechanism.

no big deal in practice as the little float valves are tough but i'm pretty sure there is a stabilizing effect on the solution too when using the extra container.

this is another time averaged thing, of course. during a 24 hour period the same total amount of fresh solution will be added but this lets it in in smaller, more evenly blended amounts. remarkable ph stability.

when my camera gets back from it's current mission i'll try to get some shots of the float control box at work.

 

[delta9nxs]

^so that the reservoir doesnt get auto topped off too fast during a feed cycle.

The hole in the bottom of the small container slows the water level dropping (directly around the float valve).. while water gets sent to the plants before returning to the res.





I've got some buddies that run hydro shops and it isnt all that it is cracked up to be. It is not the retail shops that are making a killing anymore, it is the manufacturers and distributors. Don't think a lot of these guys deserve the "hydro whore" titles they've been so known to receive.. not anymore at least.

They used to do very well, but since the whole hydroponics scene has blown up it has created price wars in which the manufacturers and major distributors are trying to eliminate by slashing the margins. I've seen what my buddy pays for shit wholesale and what it goes sold for. Its pathetic. Maybe the guys in med states are killing it in volume, but he pays the bills and that is about it...all while getting bitched at like he's gouging people.

Used to buy a bottle of nutes for $10 and sell it for $20 before discounts.

Now he is finding that the manufactuers are increasing the wholesale cost all while at the same time reducing the MSRP of said products. The margins are getting fucked... factor in the deep discounts many shops are offering to compete with the influx of new stores (and online dropshippers) and the profits after brick and mortar expenses are minimal.

I'm sure there is still lots of money to be made, and my hydro friends are resorting to buying direct from China to continue to compete, but they certainly aren't becoming millionaires in the retail hydro shop industry.

Maybe it is different elsewhere, but round here I don't think the hydro retailers deserve the bad rep they get from everyone, and certainly not from all of the "for profit" growers bitching about spending a few thousand on equipment only to quadruple or more their investment their very 1st grow.

thank you for the perspective! i guess i have been in a very small, restricted market with limited players and i tend to take it personally when i have to walk into a store with my pants down and a jar of astroglide.

really, i do feel for your friends in the industry and now i realize that it's not their fault but if i were them i would be doing my best to distance myself from the normal suppliers to the grow store industry.

alternatives are available.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Just offering my view on it as I've seen the numbers my friends do. I'm sure it is a lot different in med states where there is a greater volume of growers.

I have little need to visit a hydro shop as it is and now with PPK and Jacks + CalNit (fucking awesome by the way) I need even less from them so when it does come time to re-lamp or equip with more ballasts/fans I try to support my locals, even if it means paying a little more then what I could get stuff for online.

Not just in this industry, but the Internet/ecommerce thing has I'm sure hurt a lot of mom and pop operations so I try to do my part to support those around me. Bad enough when the small hardware stores, etc were forced out due to walmart/homedepot/lowes... even harder for them with the Amazons and other dropship operations who don't hold inventory and can sustain with practically non-existent margins.

We like to complain about corporatization of America and the greedy rats behind it, but many do nothing to combat it because all we care about is the $$$. Real "Main Street" isnt ever coming back unless we speak volumes with our dollars.


Support your neighbors people!

 

[hotboxes]

Hey Delta! Thanks for everything you've done so far! I need help from you guys. I wanna run Pureknowledges organic amended soil mix but want to implement your PPK. How would I make this work? I plan to use what HL45 has as containers (or should I use something else?). I plan to use a room the size that HL45 has, roughly. I don't want a bunch of particles falling into the bottom bucket and mixing into the controller bucket. I would most likely set up a top feed and have it go on a certain amount each day or so. I am open to all ideas, thanks fellas!

Hey there ILC I seen you want to run this organic we were just talking about this yesterday and how nice it is to have someone pop in looking to try it out organic. I was telling someone about 2 months ago to run coco in the wick to help with supplying water and supplements this way. considering how your medium is mixed will depend on how often you pulse or saturate IMO hope this helps out my friend and welcome to the PPK revolution

 

[Snook]

you don't need animation, i was just thinking about one for new people. yes, there is a 3/64" hole in the bottom of the small one gal container. rubbermaid.

i think this acts as a volume input controller so to speak. it slows the input of fresh solution. i think this keeps the solution more stable over the long term plus it takes a load off the float mechanism.

the pump fires and puts out a lot of water fast. evacuating the reservoir and creating an instant demand on a float valve situated in the normal fashion, which would be straight to the reservoir sidewall and not to a smaller container first.

this is an almost immediate full volume flow from the float.

since there is a delay on the pumped out water returning to the reservoir a lot of fresh solution comes in.

this volume plus the volume originally in the system just before the pump fires, creates an overburden from an engineering point of view that puts an unnecessary strain on the float mechanism.

no big deal in practice as the little float valves are tough but i'm pretty sure there is a stabilizing effect on the solution too when using the extra container.

this is another time averaged thing, of course. during a 24 hour period the same total amount of fresh solution will be added but this lets it in in smaller, more evenly blended amounts. remarkable ph stability.

when my camera gets back from it's current mission i'll try to get some shots of the float control box at work.

Thank you again. esplaned so even i can now understand.. 3/64".

 

[Ilovecoconuts]

Hey Delta/Hotboxes! Thank you for your inputs. It is greatly appreciated. I will have to play and experiment first before doing anything!

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Quick question,

Is it imperative to have all of the PPK modules independently connect back to the pulse reservoir, or can you link them up together (like ebb and flow buckets) with only a single line or two connecting back to the res?


Seems like it might take longer for the system to return to an equilibrium, but are there other reasons to have all of the plant sites independently tying into the res/

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

FF:

No... Plumb as you see necessary/convenient for your purposes. Think about flow/mixing/return when you size your main line. I would suggest going as big as is convenient for you.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

yeah i cant see a difference between a star and a circle as far as layout goes.
just make sure every res keeps its flood height where it should be.

 

[delta9nxs]

Just offering my view on it as I've seen the numbers my friends do. I'm sure it is a lot different in med states where there is a greater volume of growers.

I have little need to visit a hydro shop as it is and now with PPK and Jacks + CalNit (fucking awesome by the way) I need even less from them so when it does come time to re-lamp or equip with more ballasts/fans I try to support my locals, even if it means paying a little more then what I could get stuff for online.

Not just in this industry, but the Internet/ecommerce thing has I'm sure hurt a lot of mom and pop operations so I try to do my part to support those around me. Bad enough when the small hardware stores, etc were forced out due to walmart/homedepot/lowes... even harder for them with the Amazons and other dropship operations who don't hold inventory and can sustain with practically non-existent margins.

We like to complain about corporatization of America and the greedy rats behind it, but many do nothing to combat it because all we care about is the $$$. Real "Main Street" isnt ever coming back unless we speak volumes with our dollars.


Support your neighbors people!

yeah, we see this all over around here.. beautiful little towns with a lot of character and charm, with their town squares looking like ghost towns.

the guy who used to own the hardware store now has a job at hd's making minimum wage.

the interstate corridors have created new "main" streets clustered near the ramps. and they all look the same.

address should read:

big corporate effort
same street
anytown, usa 00000

it sucks!

and we are doing it to cultures overseas at a high rate of speed, too.

 

[delta9nxs]

Hey Delta/Hotboxes! Thank you for your inputs. It is greatly appreciated. I will have to play and experiment first before doing anything!

you do be welcome!

 

[delta9nxs]

Quick question,

Is it imperative to have all of the PPK modules independently connect back to the pulse reservoir, or can you link them up together (like ebb and flow buckets) with only a single line or two connecting back to the res?


Seems like it might take longer for the system to return to an equilibrium, but are there other reasons to have all of the plant sites independently tying into the res/

no, i don't think it matters much as long as you have the flow capacity, especially with the saturation pulse.

hl's picture of his layout is so neat and cleanly functional. i'm about to do the same thing to my flower room except i'm going around the outside in a loop and using the garden hose.

as we have gone up in diameter pvc and cpvc becomes cheaper and cheaper in comparison. you really only need the flexibility at each plants' approximate position.

sorry about all the distraction over on your thread. i feel like i am responsible for some of that. it's all so unnecessary.

when i was 16 i was fortunate enough to attend an alan watts lecture at the Berkeley community theater. i had been taking acid for about a year and was tripping at the lecture.

and this is the best thing to come out of South Park:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YgEhvZDZVg

it is an all in one composite of watt's lectures put into a clear animated form.

another favorite quote from him:

"human beings are but a type of tube with an input and an output. all perceived differences are superfluous"

and another part of that, roughly:

"there seems to be a competition as to who is the top tube"

what we all do here is not a competition. it is a sharing of ideas and experiences for the common good.