Balancing Soil Minerals

[oct]

Hey Joe if you see this...where are you going with that gun in your hand. Haha...JD here.

You still down to lend me a hand balancing? Sent my stuff off to logans yesterday. Complete soil, water and AEA base.

I also had a couple questions about the AEA line..I wanted to get some products headed my way (especially while they have first time customer discounts)...I called there two days in a row with no answer and also left a message on there machine yesterday morning with no reply still.

 

[MedResearcher]

Was thinking back on your first suggestion Ratzilla, try to increase the cec.

Would an amount of fresh peat moss tilled in raise the cec? I would assume it would at least provide fresh new cec sites. The peat would also lower the PH some, I am also assuming.

Gonna have to till in some amendments anyways, so throwing a few bales of peat on top wouldn't be much more work. A second thought, maybe also some coir would help. Always loved coir for drainage/airation, and if it tends to be high in K saturation, might be just what I need.

Waiting on a professional prescription and the book to arrive still, figured bouncing some ideas around couldn't hurt though. Might stimulate some debate at least!

Thanks,
Mr^^

 

[FoothillFarming]

Hey Joe if you see this...where are you going with that gun in your hand. Haha...JD here.

You still down to lend me a hand balancing? Sent my stuff off to logans yesterday. Complete soil, water and AEA base.

I also had a couple questions about the AEA line..I wanted to get some products headed my way (especially while they have first time customer discounts)...I called there two days in a row with no answer and also left a message on there machine yesterday morning with no reply still.

Just stocked back up on my AEA gear yesterday, they are on the east coast and close at 4. Maybe that is the problem? Took care of me on the first call.

 

[Ratzilla]

Was thinking back on your first suggestion Ratzilla, try to increase the cec.

Would an amount of fresh peat moss tilled in raise the cec? I would assume it would at least provide fresh new cec sites. The peat would also lower the PH some, I am also assuming.

Gonna have to till in some amendments anyways, so throwing a few bales of peat on top wouldn't be much more work. A second thought, maybe also some coir would help. Always loved coir for drainage/airation, and if it tends to be high in K saturation, might be just what I need.

Waiting on a professional prescription and the book to arrive still, figured bouncing some ideas around couldn't hurt though. Might stimulate some debate at least!

Thanks,
Mr^^

I opine that adding organic matter ( humus)and some Calcium Bentonite Clay or Zeolite will help in raising your CEC.
Humus is organic matter that is totally broken down and being work on by the soil life.
Think of the CEC as a bucket the bigger the bucket the more the minerals and nutrients that will be adsorb on the soil colloids.
If you get the balance somewhere close your medium will self regulate the ph.
I would advise to not screw the pooch trying to adjust the ph.
Again you want the base saturation of both calcium and magnesium to be 80% with Ca.@60-70% and Mg. @10-20%
With potassium @3-5%.
You get this close and you will be golden.
Ratz

 

[MedResearcher]

Thanks Rat,

Gonna look into the Zeolite, Ive never used it before, but I do recall someone mentioning it earlier in this thread and I also just recently saw it in a product catalog.

So do you think that adding a little fresh peat is a bad idea? I thought over time the peat decomposes anyways, so adding some back from time to time wasn't a horrible idea?

My train of thought wasn't to adjust the PH by using the peat, but more along the lines of some fresh peat would in a sense dilute the extra P, Ca, Mg. So I could add say 1/2 - 1" of fresh peat and x amount of K, both lowering the P, Ca, Mg, and raising the K.

On a positive note, the Ideal Soil Book is in my po box. Will have my nose buried it in tomorrow. Hopefully I wont ask so many questions after that... but I may just ask more.

Thanks again,
Mr^^

 

[MedResearcher]

Have read the Ideal Soil Book quite a few times now, great read, tons of information with a good layout.

Think I am almost comfortable doing my own prescription, but I do have 1 more question I was hoping I could get some opinions on before I make a final decision.

My original soil analysis I posted was high in Calcium and had a PH of 7.3, so after reading the book I decided to be more accurate I should take a second test with both a M3 and a A.A 8.2, so I can calculate the CEC and saturation rates more accurately.

The second sample of the same soil, taken 3 weeks later, with a decent amount of rain and a decent cover crop grown in.

The M3 stated the soil was now at 7.1 ph, but the A.A 8.2 stated the soil was 6.8 ph. So now I am a bit confused as to which test has a more accurate CEC and saturation values. Here is the new test, same soil in both rows. 1st row is M3, 2nd is AA 8.2

So, what do you guys think, go with the AA 8.2 CEC and Sat values, or the M3, or somewhere in the middle. Also curious as to why the 2 tests would have different ph values?


Thanks again,
Mr^^

 

[milkyjoe]

I would call Bill McKibbean (or something close to that) at Logan and ask him.

I have no experience here but it sure sounds like a lot of free Ca for a 0.3 difference in pH.

 

[whiteweedo]

thanks for the info guys

 

[Avenger]

First off, they use the same procedure to test pH in both samples, regardless of the extractant used for the mineral analysis. For pH testing they use a simple 1:1 soil:water slurry.

The variance can probably be explained by the fact that obtaining a proper sample size with these peat based mixes is rather difficult when using a typical soil scoop.

 

[FoothillFarming]

First off, they use the same procedure to test pH in both samples, regardless of the extractant used for the mineral analysis. For pH testing they use a simple 1:1 soil:water slurry.

The variance can probably be explained by the fact that obtaining a proper sample size with these peat based mixes is rather difficult when using a typical soil scoop.

Yup, that is what I was going to say. PH varied because the inputs were not identical. Compost, peat, amendments all have variations. That is why I prefer to mix up by the yard, and test that. As appose to 1 cubic foot. Then mix, mix, mix till you can't mix anymore. Then mix again.

 

[FoothillFarming]

Thought I would share the results from my brand new soiless mix.

 

[milkyjoe]

Mn is always stupid low. You can almost just count on it.

I would be torn how to fix that Ca. On one hand I would want to use CaSiO2 to get plant available silica. On the other I would want to use gypsum to drive some of the Mg off the cec sites...although that might also drive K off.

And when you think about P2O5 is that number accurate or is it actually like 4 x higher than that. When they do the test they use a volume of soil, not a weight. And a soilless mix is gonna be 1/4 the weight, so they under report by 4 x.

It pretty much guarantees you will need to spray micros for the life of that soil. It is my experience that you can absolutely count on Zn defs with that much P.

edit...and will plants take up enough SO4 with that much P. They are competing anions...so P is definitely the fat kid on one end of the teetter totter. Will they take up molybdate...and you probably don't want to spray photomag with that much Mg, just micros with enough MoO4 in them

 

[FoothillFarming]

Good analysis.

When I drop the samples off, I specify that I am building a new soiless mix. They still stated 6" deep samples for some reason.....However Susan and Teresa at Logan knows to dry and weigh each sample.

As for fixing the Ca, it's even more complicated than that. For some reason, I believe I have been having a solubility issue with my oyster shells from Down to Earth. So it's still possible that more Ca is in the soil, but hasn't become available on the test. I could go into more details, but it's been a long road in that regards.

I know the P is high, but too high? Really? Especially if more calcium becomes available? So high that zinc and s04 wont show up?

I do have the entire micro line up from AEA, but I can't use photomag......bummer.

So milky, for a first year soilless mix, what do you think?

 

[milkyjoe]

My short answer is I would not make a true soilless mix period.

But if you got to I would take a bale of Premier Peat and send it to Logan. Based on the results I would add enough ewc to get the P up to about 100 lbs per acre. Then add some drainage material to taste.

You would get to add pretty much everything so you wouldn't go over on anything. But as lightweight as it would be you are always going to be chasing K.

As a compromise I would go 50% topsoil, 25% peat (for organic matter) and 25% drainage. Look for a top soil with a 20 plus tcec.

 

[oct]

Joe where does bagged topsoil comes from? Like do companies scrap it out from fields, make it themselves, etc?

I was always curious about this. I wondered how a place could continually be harvested for topsoil or a company could continually produce the same product because it seems like they'd run out of it and the next place they'd go would be different. Making their own seems like a process that would take years to do.

 

[milkyjoe]

I get it bulk...they have a front end loader with a yard bucket. I check it every time I use it to see if it changes. I assume it is going to change over time.

 

[oct]

I bought a few bags when I was transplanting clones one year and it was really nice and then about a year later I did the same thing (with the same company) and it wasn't nearly as nice. Made me think that the prior topsoil supply had probably ran out of wherever it was harvested.

My friend operates equipment for the company that supplies fox farms. He says they're always on the move going from different logging ponds and old pond beds. They scrap it until theres nothing left and then move on to the next one.

Probably something similar I suppose.

 

[FoothillFarming]

My short answer is I would not make a true soilless mix period.

But if you got to I would take a bale of Premier Peat and send it to Logan. Based on the results I would add enough ewc to get the P up to about 100 lbs per acre. Then add some drainage material to taste.

You would get to add pretty much everything so you wouldn't go over on anything. But as lightweight as it would be you are always going to be chasing K.

As a compromise I would go 50% topsoil, 25% peat (for organic matter) and 25% drainage. Look for a top soil with a 20 plus tcec.

Thanks again for the feedback.

That didn't really answer my questions. What do you think of the soil(less) mix I made? I understand you would go a different route, but what do you think? Compared to say Screws mix, coots mix ext....

Also, I am not a big fan of top soil. In hindsight, I wish I would have added 5-10% so some of that calcium would bind quicker. However the compost I use is turned on clay top soil, so i do have a % of it in there. Maybe I would be a bigger fan if I could find some quality top soil around me, 20 tcec plus I have never seen.

 

[milkyjoe]

If Leadsled calculated your Ca then I am sure he added enough. So focus on microbes, get some grass growing in your pots and use Tainio, I never use oyster shell for this reason, stick with 200 mesh hical lime in the future, or Vansil W10 if you need SiO2.

Your problem will be early in the plants life it will take up K instead of Ca which will make for weak cell walls that are open to sap sucker attack. So spray plenty of Ca until you see it come up in the soil.

Did you amend micros...MnSO4, etc? Even if yes I would think you would want to spray micros and get a test in a month or so. They are water soluble so it is not hard to fertigate them any time.

Watch out for the tips of your leaves curling right or left. That is a sign of Zn def which I am betting you will definitely have. Also watch for tip burn...which is actually a lack of Ca sometimes caused by a B shortage...B is the limo driver for Ca. If it is short Ca will not get to the growing tips.

That high P may also be tying up Ca in the soil. At some point get a saturated paste test to see if Ca is available or not. The high P will also tie up the micro cations...plan on spraying that the entire time. The micros are really important for health and quality of the plants.

I really look at compost/ewc as an a P amendment to soil, not as a part of the formula. Better to just chuck some worms in the mix...that way you know they are eating an Albrecht balanced diet and that their shit will reflect that.

 

[ValleyKush]

Great post^

I would love to see you make a thread outlining the basics of how nutrients work together in soil. Something very similar to above but with all the elements we use and in an easy to find thread. I think beginers would benifit greatly from your easy to understand way of speaking and even the advanced crowd would enjoy the easy brush up/ reminders. Sticky worthy imo.