Balancing Soil Minerals

[orechron]

Milky, she's a great indoor plant. Can be chopped in under 7 weeks in my set up. Such good herb for anything active, too much at night will keep you up though.

Does anyone see a problem with using a touch over whats recommended sulphur wise? I think I'm gonna reammend my OD soil with gypsum, Zn/Cu/Mn sulfates. Last go around my sulphur was low and P was way to frickin high. May have even been a fungi inhibitor.

Tried firing up the mantis yesterday and one of my guys didn't notice the air cleaner was loose. There's soil all up in there. Kinda disappointed about that, looks like I'll be getting a workout instead

In 2012 I used a shit ton of gypsum to get my Calcium up to around 70%, but my Sulfur also went up to 1000+ppm. I did not see any adverse effects. Also, I think it was in The Ideal Soil somewhere where Michael states that micronutrient sulfates work well in soils already high in Sulfur. Could be in a different book though.

Thanks. Follow up question, were you guys able to go into late November And in your estimation, was that a key to handling 2 or 3 frost? I'm asking because the ones we saw to look like that seem to handle the fall temp swings better. We don't know if it's a matter of the others finishing quicker while those looked like they could use a couple of more weeks.

Granted were not doing organics, I think the principle of my question still applies. Truthfully, in our situation it's just too much of an economic burden to do organics.

Some plants had their second cut on Nov 2nd. It has to do with dissolved solids. Adequate nutrient levels = high brix = more sugar/antifreeze. K is the sugar mover though...

Organics can be cheap. All the soil amendments I used this year were (seed meals, chicken shit, lime, micro sulfates). I spent less than $50 on insecticides/fungicides (Bt for caterpillars and sea shield for beefing up the plants in anticipation of wet weather accompanied by botrytis). I think if I spent that money on bottled N it would be a 10X bill.

Fwiw I wasn't entirely organic. I used about a quarter gallon of this stuff called N-pHuric acid to decompose bicarbonate ions in the well water and I also did small doses of P acid through the drip every two weeks. I'd say though that 95% of the food was supplied by organic inputs.

 

[Humphry Davy]

Milky,

In regards to low P, just had a test come back with elemental P @ 98 ppm with soil density factored (their results would have P at about 35 ppm) and the paste test shows adequate P levels. pH was at 6.5 however the iron was half of where I like it on the paste, so when the iron gets up there I'm willing to bet some of that soluble P gets tied up. I'll keep you updated, but I thought that was positive data towards running low P.

 

[Humphry Davy]

Another bit of info I've witnessed.

Had a tissue sample show extreme excess of Boron, and along with it was 2X as much calcium as I generally see on tissue. As far as the plants it was the largest buds I've ever seen that soil bed produce, however the large amounts of trichs I'm used to seeing wasn't there, but still good amount.


Should have a soil test back on that soil in a week and I'll be able to see what other data can be correlated

 

[orechron]

Humphry, I wanted to sign on specifically to caution you against too much Zn. I got a chance to talk to Graeme Sait this last week and asked him a few questions regarding our soil problems. His exact words when asked about the P:Zn issue in high P soils were that no mineral is an island. What he meant is that when attempting to raise Zn results on a paste test, if you get too high other micro uptake will start to get antagonized. He was saying that regardless of where P is at he wouldn't go above 10ppm Zn. I just remembered that you mentioned going up to 200ppm Zn and wanted to throw this tidbit at you. Maybe you could share a paste result from that high P high Zn soil to verify or refute what Sait suggested?

 

[milkyjoe]

All those micros, and to some extent Ca, depend on P. I am totally convinced too much P screws up everyrhing

 

[Humphry Davy]

Thanks for the info, I'll keep you updated

 

[reppin2c]

High P is a fungi inhibitor....so all those hard to digest elements are gonna fall off. That's my opinion. It's all a balancing act it seems. To much of anything can screw up many things. To much meat, time in monument valley and you too can claim duke status. Monument valley is beautiful however

 

[VortexPower420]

Reppin- I was curious how P is a fungal inhibitor?

I know soluable P will stop mycorrhzae from developing and functioning but will it affect other fungi?

Also with being so reactive isn't most P is a unavailable, untill fungi gets a hold of it. I was under the assumption that once bound to lets say iron it unavaliable to plants and most microbes. There for having bound reserves does little in the inhibiting department.

I could be wrong...

 

[orechron]

P itself can kill mycorrhizae if we are talking phosphoric acid. If you have 1000 lbs of P/acre and it is all in the form of CaPO4- it won't directly kill fungi because it is no longer reactive. I think this is one of those cases where the organic approach is safer. Conventional ag will dump phosphate fertilizers and poison fungi because they are such sensitive organisms. If however, we are talking about mixes that just contain a good amount of compost and a fair amount of easily accessible P in that organic matter, then the plant becomes the fungal inhibitor.

Every symbiosis in nature is some form of energy trade. The plant won't trade sugar to a mycorrhizal fungi if it can get it right from the soil. The fungi in this case would be a parasite. People are finding more and more examples of plants having the ability to choose which partnerships benefit them the most in any given soil.

This is actually a great thing for us because P inputs are just more money spent, you only get a small portion being used by the plant when you ad them, they tie up micros when they get to high, and its looking like fungal inoculants are a win/win (make P available and build soil 0-matter).

I think I'm going to switch to no-till or at least much less tillage to start taking better care of soil fungi from now on.

 

[TheyCallMeJJay]

Milky, she's a great indoor plant. Can be chopped in under 7 weeks in my set up. Such good herb for anything active, too much at night will keep you up though.



In 2012 I used a shit ton of gypsum to get my Calcium up to around 70%, but my Sulfur also went up to 1000+ppm. I did not see any adverse effects. Also, I think it was in The Ideal Soil somewhere where Michael states that micronutrient sulfates work well in soils already high in Sulfur. Could be in a different book though.



Some plants had their second cut on Nov 2nd. It has to do with dissolved solids. Adequate nutrient levels = high brix = more sugar/antifreeze. K is the sugar mover though...

Organics can be cheap. All the soil amendments I used this year were (seed meals, chicken shit, lime, micro sulfates). I spent less than $50 on insecticides/fungicides (Bt for caterpillars and sea shield for beefing up the plants in anticipation of wet weather accompanied by botrytis). I think if I spent that money on bottled N it would be a 10X bill.

Fwiw I wasn't entirely organic. I used about a quarter gallon of this stuff called N-pHuric acid to decompose bicarbonate ions in the well water and I also did small doses of P acid through the drip every two weeks. I'd say though that 95% of the food was supplied by organic inputs.

I see, thanks.

 

[milkyjoe]

Hey orechron...on fungal development other than myco. With all of the carbon in our soil and the wide c:n ratio aren't we set up for growing fungus? Doesn't the focus just need to be on getting the plant to exude fatty acids or adding fat directly to the soil with fish or something?

It seems to me if we focus on converting carbon to humus lots of good things can happen

The thing that still confuses me is that humus is about 60% carbon and 6% N...so in our soil don't we still need N to make humus? Which makes me think high fat fish is a good idea.

Have you seen the fungal development Mike Omeg is getting? I think it is on you tube.

 

[VortexPower420]

Milkyjoe don't forget about the tones and tones of N in the air above our heads.

Can't beat plants fats....

 

[orechron]

That's the thing, I don't know what will get you the best humus building response: a straight up general fungal feeding frenzy or myco strategy. I remember when I was first reading about myco interactions coming across research that suggested glomalin accounted for 20% of soil carbon in natural systems. This is something that I don't think trichoderma or other saprobes produce (someone correct me if I'm wrong). In other words, humus may be produced in a regular compost heap if we add a bit of clay, but I'm unsure if it has the same quality or longevity in the soil than that produced by amf species.

I used to not bother with myco inoculants because the soils we are using tend to be bacterial dominant and high in soluble or available P. My goals are changing now that we are learning more about how excess P is behaving in the soil.

N being required to make humus is definitely evident with myco species (glomalin is a glycoprotein). This stuff also is said to last 50+ years in the soil.

if I had to guess I'd say saprobes will get fed by the fish/crab products more easily when establishing new soils. Myco species are geared towards symbiosis, maybe they want only root exudates. The idea of feeding our microbes only through the plants is romantic, but we have a bunch of tools at our disposal and I don't think I'm going to stop using trichoderma.

Fungi are weird though, some are facultatively mycorrhizal. Morels, for example: I pick them under host trees only out here and my relatives in the midwest find them in fields living like a saprobe. It could be that an ideal strategy for us involves building fast humus through proper composting with decomposers, then later on focusing on myco species to build longer lasting, more stable humus.

I watched Omeg's videos and it looks like he has a bunch of woody debris left over fro compost applications. That sea shield and rejuvenate just added the N boost he needed to start decomposing it. Sea critter extract is def a potent fungal food.

 

[milkyjoe]

I actually innoculated both a veggie garden in native soil and my pots with 133 ppm elemental P with mycogenesis at the beginning of the yr. Autopsy on the root balls showed more glomalin on the veggie roots...dreadlocks. unfortunately I did not test that soil

 

[trichrider]

wrong link...sorry folks.

tedx on soil

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q1VnwcpW7E&feature=youtu.be

edited to fix link

 

[orechron]

I actually innoculated both a veggie garden in native soil and my pots with 133 ppm elemental P with mycogenesis at the beginning of the yr. Autopsy on the root balls showed more glomalin on the veggie roots...dreadlocks. unfortunately I did not test that soil

See that makes me wonder what kind of exudates cannabis is putting into the soil. I've def seen better root structure on veggies and grasses like oats/rye than canna. It's more likely that our plants recruit amf than not considering 90% of land plants do. Inoculum isn't that expensive and once you've fostered the connection they will multiply. Keep the ball rollin on those veggies, a cover crop should keep them going over the winter.

 

[milkyjoe]

John makes the claim that hemp is better than any other annual at building organic matter. How he knows that I have no clue

 

[Robrites]

https://plus.googleapis.com/+xshaun1111/posts/A2g6jDrEnDx

tedx on soil

That link don't be goin' where ya want us to go trichrider.

 

[Tactical Farmer]

Hey weed nerds !

Wow this info is amazing, thanks for everything..
Its inspired me, finally building my indoor no till soil bed.

Just laying out the frame and pond liner tonight, ran around collecting supplies for what will go in it. Please let me know what I should add since it will be there for years.

Its 9 ft long x 4 ft wide x 19 in high.

Plan on adding compost, peat, perlite in equal parts for the mix.

Maybe some leaves, dry corn cobs, small twigs, bark, vermiculite, Napa 8822 de.

I have azomite, bio char, bone char, lime, gypsum, alfalfa meal, greensand, insect frass, bentonite.

Any input ?

 

[reppin2c]

Hard numbers are key to getting there. You can throw a handfull of this and that at your soil or throw a handful of Benjamins a5 whatever you like in a strong wind but I'd get soil test