Any Ideas on how to chill my water temp, without a chiller??

[superultramega]

What kind of issues? Heavy metal absorption into the water? I'm not going to be drinking this stuff. Besides copper has the best heat transfer properties of all the common metals. Finding stainless steel tubing is gonig to be pretty hard too. Bending it into a coil is going to be difficult without a tubing bender vs copper which will be pretty easy.

Many copper species are toxic. Treated lumber, for example, uses copper azole or, until recently, chromated copper arsenate. The acidic nutrient solution along with it's concentration of minerals can react to form products detrimental to your plants' health.
I would use either stainless or a hard plastic. The plastic might not have the best heat transfer properties, but you can compensate with a longer coil, giving more surface area.

Yeah antifreeze is fine too. My computer modding brethren use alcohol so thats just what I defaulted to. (also pretty sure that denatured is even more efficent at transfering heat than antifreeze due to its "air chilling" effect, I don't know any of the science behind this so..)

The "air chilling" effect is evaporative cooling. While that will happen, its effect in the limited surface area of the bucket will be negligible (also you're losing a lot of coolant daily to produce the slight effect, alcohol is quite volatile). Water has almost twice the specific heat of alcohol. Water wins hands down. That's why they use it to cool everything. It's a weird quirk that water has such a high specific heat.

 

[MeanBean]

edit: I now realize that your system is 8 gallons. I cant say for sure one way or the other if that wine chiller is going to work.
Personally I wouldn't risk it and go a little bigger.

If you somehow modded this to cool water by using waterblocks/heatsinks. I bet it would keep your res nice and chilly. but still it uses 500 watts.
http://cgi.ebay.com/USA-GIANT-62mm-...tem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415028d50f

Thanks for this post Numboard, I am getting some ideas! I can't bealive that little piece of shit uses 500 watts no way!!

Still I think you inspired me bro! Basicly the rez can stay warm, but the water in the four, 3 gallon buckets that the 4 vegging plants live in needs to be 67. So why not just find the perfect size peltier unit and put one in each bucket??? can they be under water?? then just hook em up to a temp sensor and when the water get to hot the peltiers get power tell its cool again

I gotta figure out that part for now, but it's comming. Bit later tonight I am gonna get my stuff together and order a bunch of pc fans to help cool the area, then this deal.

I think the wine cooler was 100.00 I bet I could build this pelrtier system idea for under that anyhow plus I won't need additional plumbing!!

What you think bros?

 

[MeanBean]

edit: I now realize that your system is 8 gallons. I cant say for sure one way or the other if that wine chiller is going to work.
Personally I wouldn't risk it and go a little bigger.

If you somehow modded this to cool water by using water blocks/heat sinks. I bet it would keep your res nice and chilly. but still it uses 500 watts.
http://cgi.ebay.com/USA-GIANT-62mm-...tem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415028d50f

62mm - THERMOELECTRIC PELTIER COOLER

Thanks for this post Numboard, I am getting some ideas! I can't believe that little piece of shit uses 500 watts no way!!

Still I think you inspired me bro! Basically the rez can stay warm, but the water in the four, 3 gallon buckets that the 4 vegging plants live in needs to be 67. So why not just find the perfect size peltier unit and put one in each bucket??? can they be under water?? then just hook em up to a temp sensor and when the water get to hot the peltiers get power tell its cool again

I gotta figure out that part for now, but it's coming. Bit later tonight I am gonna get my stuff together and order a bunch of pc fans to help cool the area, then this deal.

I think the wine cooler was 100.00 I bet I could build this pelrtier system idea for under that anyhow plus I won't need additional plumbing!!

What you think bros?

 

[Manitoid]

i 3rd this

i 3rd this

drill 2 holes in the side of a mini fridge(size of your hose), use grommets, coil as much hose as you can inside. one hole is an in and the other an out. worked good for me in the past, ran 15 min every 3 hrs. the solution sitting in the "fridge" line should be cool enough to help you out and be cool enough for each cycle. and you can find mini fridges cheap

little to slow armed beat me to the punch

i third this... this is a WAY CHEAPER and effective way to cool water. people with aquariums have been doing it for a while. why buy a 500-900 dollar chiller? i do not know

Once in the fridge, if you can get some coiled copper tube (as much as you can fit in it) it will transfer heat (in this case cold) better than plastic tubing.

another idea is to have the intake at the top of fridge and the outtake at bottom back to res. It will allow for the pump to not work as hard because basically all of the water in the fridge is returning by gravity.

another way to help cooling is to remove the small housing around the "freezer". it will cool the whole mini fridge colder faster... plus there is no use for a freezer in a water chiller.

in my area on craigslist, mini fridges are currently $40

hope this helped


EDIT: I used the copper pipes on a loop to chill my icebox in line air cooler. so just plain water, and not used in a loop with the plant roots. Was basically a radiator loop for the lights. something to consider is that with water 20 degrees lower than grow room temp you can cool the room with just the icebox inline reflector cooler. thats right the air coming out of your reflectors stays in the room because it leaves the reflector colder than your growroom temperature.

was thinking maybe a cooler room or reflector may resolve your hot res issues. also moving the res to a location outside the room may help a little

i would not use copper with nutes in water, just longer plastic (PEX type) coil.

 

[Numboard]

i third this... this is a WAY CHEAPER and effective way to cool water. people with aquariums have been doing it for a while. why buy a 500-900 dollar chiller? i do not know

Once in the fridge, if you can get some coiled copper tube (as much as you can fit in it) it will transfer heat (in this case cold) better than plastic tubing.

another idea is to have the intake at the top of fridge and the outtake at bottom back to res. It will allow for the pump to not work as hard because basically all of the water in the fridge is returning by gravity.

another way to help cooling is to remove the small housing around the "freezer". it will cool the whole mini fridge colder faster... plus there is no use for a freezer in a water chiller.

in my area on craigslist, mini fridges are currently $40

hope this helped


EDIT: I used the copper pipes on a loop to chill my icebox in line air cooler. so just plain water, and not used in a loop with the plant roots. Was basically a radiator loop for the lights. something to consider is that with water 20 degrees lower than grow room temp you can cool the room with just the icebox inline reflector cooler. thats right the air coming out of your reflectors stays in the room because it leaves the reflector colder than your growroom temperature.

was thinking maybe a cooler room or reflector may resolve your hot res issues. also moving the res to a location outside the room may help a little

i would not use copper with nutes in water, just longer plastic (PEX type) coil.

Oh god I dont even know what to say.
You seriously need to read this entire thread. Especially my posts detailing exactly why mini fridges should be avoided like the plague.
Also have you actually TRIED doing this? I find this hard to believe because it doesn't work.

MINI FRIDGES/WINE CHILLERS WILL NOT WORK, FOR ANY KIND OF GROW ROOM COOLING..
You wont believe how many times I have had to explain this to people. (Its a good idea I had it once too)
Mini fridges are designed to cope with No heat load. bags of veggies, milk, juice, whatever you put in your fridge normally has no heat load aside from what heat is already in it from being outside of a fridge. Your heat load in this situation is your res temps aka your lights shining on your buckets creating a heat load. Constantly cooling this would require the mini fridge to operate constantly. and likely wouldn't even be able to cope with it. In all refrigeration systems which are essentially "heat pumps" the cooler you keep the "hot side" the cooler the "cold side" will be. Look on the back of your mini fridge. You will probably see a pretty simple radiator which consists of a copper tube going in zigzags accompanied by some thin metal wire soldered to it to give it rigidity. also you'll notice theres no fan blowing on it. This is an ineffective rad for the kind of cooling we desire.
Ac units have much better rads hence their much greater cooling ability. Efficiently transferring this cool air via water to your res, as explained above with the closed pc rad loop would be your best bet. If you have an ac unit of course... If not I think your best bet would be a "swamp cooler" which is detailed above in post 25.

Some mini fridges use giant peltiers to cool. A custom peltier cooler might work actually. You would have to get a large one a really large one. I would try and find something that uses at least 500-600 watts. Then i would find a really nice heat sink of some kind to mount to the hot side of the pelt. Get a nice big fan to blow across the fins, axial fans wouldnt cut it here. Try to route your exhaust ducting over the fins somehow, maybe build an enclosure with Tupperware and ductape/zip ties so your air blows across pelt fins then out of the grow area along with your other hot vents. Then I would use some kind of water block on the cool side of the pelt to circulate through your res. Water blocks can come in all shapes and forms. The best one in your situation might be a coil of copper tubing, 1/4 inch maybe? wrapped in a tight dense coil then affixed directly to the cold side of the pelt with adhesive thermal paste then insulated like fuck.

Remember there is a direct correlation between watts and heat, a 1000 watt bulb is going to produce 1000 watts of heat. Same goes for pelts 500watts of pelt power is going to be able to move 500watts of heat out of your res. (ASSUMING 100% EFFICIENCY, Which they aren't, nothing is.) By using active cooling you cant skimp on how much power you use. If you need to keep your res cool you are going to need a certain number of watts regardless of what type of cooling you use. And ill tell you right now water chillers are the MOST efficient water cooling devices out there. They have nice rads and nice water/freeon exchangers. Your chiller will only run when it NEEDS to to keep your temps down. This is what you want regardless of what system you use. The pelt is going to be less efficent than a propper water chiller. This means that while it might use less power than a water chiller its still going to be run longer than a water chiller to achieve the same amount of cooling. You cant argue with basic math. A water chiller is going to use less power than a pelt. This means that no matter what cooling design you come up with its going to use more power per btu of water cooled than a chiller. period.
Lots of bad info and suggestions in this thread. I just dont want anybody to waste their money chasing things that wont work. like I did.

 

[Numboard]

62mm - THERMOELECTRIC PELTIER COOLER

Thanks for this post Numboard, I am getting some ideas! I can't believe that little piece of shit uses 500 watts no way!!

Still I think you inspired me bro! Basically the rez can stay warm, but the water in the four, 3 gallon buckets that the 4 vegging plants live in needs to be 67. So why not just find the perfect size peltier unit and put one in each bucket??? can they be under water?? then just hook em up to a temp sensor and when the water get to hot the peltiers get power tell its cool again

I gotta figure out that part for now, but it's coming. Bit later tonight I am gonna get my stuff together and order a bunch of pc fans to help cool the area, then this deal.

I think the wine cooler was 100.00 I bet I could build this pelrtier system idea for under that anyhow plus I won't need additional plumbing!!

What you think bros?

Remember that one half of that pelt gets hot and the other half gets cold. You cant just drop it in water. You need to put a heat sink on the hot side.

Like this. So this is how you would apply it to cpu cooling. You have the pelt in between the heat source and the heat sink. Cold side against the cpu hot side against the heat sink. So somehow you are going to need water contact with the cold side and a heat sink on
the hot side.

To get water contact with the cold side I would use a water block or something similar. http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=59_498
Get the cheapest one you can find that will accept half inch tubing.

Also take a look at this http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2946050&postcount=123
This is probably the best example of what i am talking about. Its a water to water exchange.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2954336&postcount=140 and another

 

[Manitoid]

I am sorry if the mini fridge chiller did not work for you, as it has worked wonders for me. I will agree that a modified ac unit would do a better job

 

[Numboard]

Could you explain in detail how you are using your mini fridge?
How many ice boxes are you chilling?
Also what kind of mini fridge is it. Pelt or compressor?
Also detail what parts you are using
Tube diameter, pump size, pump flow rate etc etc.

 

[Spanishwilly]

What?

The airconditioner/shopping cart rig. I was thinking it just needed to keep a small res cool.
Yeah, use stainless.

 

[Mr.Meds]

Numboard I also vote stainless steel over copper for your particular system.

http://nybrewsupply.com/products/wort-chiller-stainless-steel-immersion.php

 

[Numboard]

does anyone have any sources to back up their claims with this whole copper vs stainless thing? I really don't have 100 bucks to drop on two coils of stainless steel. And I already have the copper.
Unless someone can give me some sources about how copper+acidic nutes= detrimental to plant growth I think I'm gonna be sticking with copper.
Those stainless wort chillers are really sexy. If I had the money I would definitely get those

 

[MeanBean]

Alright numboard I smoked up my idea and ordered the shit. Well I have enough for 2 test pots.

for each pot I am going to attempt to cut a 60mm square out under water closest to the top. then I plan on epoxying a thin metal patch over it. then I'll hook the peltier to that on the outside, on the back of the peltier I have a Pentium 3 CPU heatsink and fan.

If I feel the temp isint dissipating off the plate well I might put a metal heatsink on the inside to.

the peltier is 40mm and the fan n stuff is 60mm

No problem huh?!

 

[Numboard]

Alright numboard I smoked up my idea and ordered the shit. Well I have enough for 2 test pots.

for each pot I am going to attempt to cut a 60mm square out under water closest to the top. then I plan on epoxying a thin metal patch over it. then I'll hook the peltier to that on the outside, on the back of the peltier I have a Pentium 3 CPU heatsink and fan.

If I feel the temp isint dissipating off the plate well I might put a metal heatsink on the inside to.

the peltier is 40mm and the fan n stuff is 60mm

No problem huh?!

Fuckin awesome! Detail your build with pix! Really lookin forward to see how well these things work. I have very little experience with em. The p3 heat sink should be fine. I would a heatsink on the inside too. Also which pelts did you get? wattage? I would use adhesive thermal paste to attach the pelt to the metal plate too... You definitly want some kind of tim (thermal interface material)

 

[MeanBean]

Well I got 2 60 watters, so well go more or less from there. There rated at the one that said 500 some watts actually only used 318.

 

[Mr.Meds]

If I was considering it I would call up a professional from a testing lab and pick their brain directly. Try A&L http://www.allabs.com/contactus.htm - I have talked to them before and they're really intelligent.

I wouldn't trust running air pumps with chemicals/metals/nutrient solutions running through copper tubing. I would be afraid of some sort of redox effect, the nitric acid or phosphoric acid having a reaction with the pure copper or not to mention plain old copper toxicity (copper oxide)(which happens at low levels).

I'm not a chemist but I know I wouldn't gamble with those stakes. I'd call the pros and tell them you're concerned about your tomatoes and see what they say.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oVJ5E8kdWs

 

[superultramega]

does anyone have any sources to back up their claims with this whole copper vs stainless thing? I really don't have 100 bucks to drop on two coils of stainless steel. And I already have the copper.
Unless someone can give me some sources about how copper+acidic nutes= detrimental to plant growth I think I'm gonna be sticking with copper.
Those stainless wort chillers are really sexy. If I had the money I would definitely get those

Go pick up a chemistry book and read it. This isn't an old wives tale. Copper can not be used in a hydroponic system.
But, you know, do whatever you want. They're your plants.

Again you can use plastic, just run a longer coil.

 

[jaspmf]

I simply wrapped my res's w/ that shiny silver reflective bubble insulation garbage. Did the top aswell. Left the bottom uninsulated (figured it'd pull cool up from the floor)

They've been staying @ 65f now...room is around 75.

Seeing as you're in a basement you could try a tester (say a 5 gal. bucket wrapped) just to see if it'd work for you. Cheaper anyways. My floor stay's nice and cool.

 

[MeanBean]

Yeah I am actually looking around for some metal buckets, it will make the whole process easier. But with a metal bucket I Will defiantly need insulation and the stuff you mention is what I need.

Can you get that stuff at a particular store?

 

[vprising909]

hey mean bean...

I built a little setup once. I bought one of those little refrigerators (like $75 20 bux a year in energy). I ran a copper line out of my res into the fridge (drilled a hole). Inside the fridge there was a little rubbermaid of water. The lines ran into the fridge and into the box and back out again with a 296 gph pump. Sounds ghetto but it works... and didn't turn out ghetto at all.

 

[Numboard]

hey mean bean...

I built a little setup once. I bought one of those little refrigerators (like $75 20 bux a year in energy). I ran a copper line out of my res into the fridge (drilled a hole). Inside the fridge there was a little rubbermaid of water. The lines ran into the fridge and into the box and back out again with a 296 gph pump. Sounds ghetto but it works... and didn't turn out ghetto at all.

Hey look another one....
Read my posts earlier on in the thread.
Also how much water are you cooling
What are your average temps with the fridge off, vs on.
You know you are wasting tons of electricity right?