Anti's MicroStealth Cab 4000 (The PL-L adventure!)

[Anti]

still following along here. do you have any idea what fan you were planning on for this? seems like a S&P100 or Panasonic Whisper Fan would work.

Yeah. Those are the two that I'm looking at at the moment.

Still in the concept stages thus far... so anyone with suggestions... please share.

I do think that if you draw up air thru the tubes for each light from outside the cab, and you make sure the top compartment is air tight, then just straight exhaust it with a quiet PC fan. Then exhaust the chamber with a fan/scrubber in a separate air loop where you can afford lower CFM since the heat is already dealt with.

This is one potential solution I am considering. Final decision may have to wait until I can put the lights in a box and see what the temps are like pre-fan.

is this also going to be an all in one cab like the 3000?

The jury is still out on this question. The designs as shown are concentrating on the best way to achieve ridiculous light penetration in a single flower cab. Once I determine what seems the most reasonable, I will determine whether it is possible to do it as an all-in-one cab.

One possibility would be to build something that looks like a small lockable cabinet (with bookshelf or CD rack or ???) on top.

One other possibility is to integrate the cabinet into a wrap-around computer desk design.

I'm also interested in other suggestions.

If nothing else, I may simply modify the existing design to have a larger flowering area.

 

[Anti]

My first design was heavily influenced by my understanding of growing (book learnin') and the participation of others in the micro community on this site. (And by Dr. Bud and NGB and Red Greenery and others.)

This design is based on the incredible work I'm seeing from people like ScrubNinja, SuperPedro and others in the PLL threads.

PLL makes more sense than CFL from pretty much every angle EXCEPT for the "you can get it at any walmart" angle.

This cab, I am more concerned (since there is already a functional cab providing me with herb and therefore the money to experiment since I'm not buying herb) with quality of end product and enhancing stealth while improving light penetration. Before, with no experience and no real understanding of what was necessary, I was really impressed with using PC fans (at $10 a pop) rather than a whisper fan (at $80 a pop). Now that I've seen how it all goes down and I have a little more of a budget (and time) I'm opting to do the things that I would choose to do differently with a year and some real experience under my belt.

I can't imagine how much more knowledgeable I will be in another year.

 

[AFP]

Anti, you seem diligent, and it seems to me that your tenacity is infectious.

I can't imagine how much more knowledgeable I will be in another year.

This attitude is something people would do good to adopt.
Micro cabinet grow's are becoming more popular, and ideas like these are the ones that bring the greatest advances for the community.




At the beginning of the I threw together a flowering cabinet with just under 240w of curly cfl's. The design is similar to many cfl SOG grows here on icmag. The buds (15 girls from seed) are almost halfway done, and once ripe I will be renovating the cabinet totally.


I have a fulham workhorse 8 ballast and 4x 55watt 3000k sylvania bulbs + sockets on the way from 1000bulbs.com. I was planning to let them sit on glass in a manner similar to your original cfl cab.
cabinet 2k10v2r1.jpg
cabinet 2k10v2.jpg



I am considering configuring the lights in a manner similar to the ones you have posed, but have a significant concern. If your planning to grow in soil, and need to move the plants around from time to time to manicure or water- how will you avoid jostling the lights if they are hung in the middle of the cabinet at such tight intervals?


Will it be more effective to top light the plants through glass, or vertically through cool tubes? Consider that placing the lights vertically might only be practical if they are placed against a wall, and not hung with 360* visibility.


If I have any epiphanies regarding the alternative arrangements of pl-l's, I will certainly append this thread.

 

[AFP]

Considering some other light arrangements...

 

[MrAwder]

Another mockup of my last idea. This would be all-in-one with mothers and clones on the left and flower on the right.





So thats space for 2 - 2gal pots for moms. Or 3 smaller pots. Then enough room for 5 clones straight in coco. Maybe room to squeeze a few extra in case not all 5 take. Then 15 sites for flower. My pot size is 1L air pots.

The tubes for the PL-Ls pull fresh air from the bottom and vent into the top chamber. Top chamber holds 2 WH8 ballasts, power strip/timers, and power supply for fans. Top is vented by a 120mm PC fan.

In the veg/mom/clone chamber there is a can 2600 or scrubber of similar size, exhausted out the back by another 120mm fan. Most likely one with high static pressure and around 60 CFM. The can 2600 is rated for 30 and figure I will lose at least half pulling through it.

The 2 sides are separated by 2 pieces of hardboard or plywood acting as a light trap. Intake would be darkroom louvres not pictured but most likely along the back wall of the flowering area.

Also the mom area would be lit by regular screw in CFLs not pictured.

The only real problem is that with this light arrangement for flower, you lose some output from the lights on the edges.

 

[twrex]

Anti, you seem diligent, and it seems to me that your tenacity is infectious.

This attitude is something people would do good to adopt.
Micro cabinet grow's are becoming more popular, and ideas like these are the ones that bring the greatest advances for the community.

I couldn't agree more, Anti's original experiment was what really got my mind going on cab design. It was when I saw the high pod that I thought of putting it together with a micro design like this that things really started to come together in my head.

I am considering configuring the lights in a manner similar to the ones you have posed, but have a significant concern. If your planning to grow in soil, and need to move the plants around from time to time to manicure or water- how will you avoid jostling the lights if they are hung in the middle of the cabinet at such tight intervals?

Why would it matter? Is this going to hurt the light or the plants? I think if this were an issue then tilt might have mentioned it in his entertainment center thread. http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=174331 Also, there are other considerations which can be made such as using flexible tubing at the top of the light to allow it to bend out of the way.

Will it be more effective to top light the plants through glass, or vertically through cool tubes? Consider that placing the lights vertically might only be practical if they are placed against a wall, and not hung with 360* visibility.

Just think about what you're asking, is it better to have all of the plant within 3" of the light or just the top canopy? You can't have these sorts of plant densities and that kind of light distance without vertical lights. Also the light distance is consistent as the plants grow, there is no propping them up on blocks to bring them closer to the lights and this sort of manipulation, the light and plant are right where they need to be, distance wise, from the start. Also, placing them against a wall is less practical from the standpoint of effective light usage, you're losing a decent percentage of your light in reflected losses so keeping as many of the lights out and near the plants as possible is just the best use of the lights.

 

[Frosty Buds]

Is there any reason you are using the PVC elbows on the ends of the tubes?

They will just add resistance to the airflow and extra expense to the build.

The air doesn't need to be directed towards the fan, it will find it's way there by itself.

 

[Anti]

Anti, you seem diligent, and it seems to me that your tenacity is infectious.

Thanks Bro. It was people in this community (ICMAG) that convinced me to finally take the plunge and begin providing for myself. I want to contribute to that community and make it the best it can possibly be.

The best way to thank me is to document your own successes and failures and share what you learn with the rest of us. The more we collectively understand, the better it is for all of us.

Micro cabinet grows are becoming more popular, and ideas like these are the ones that bring the greatest advances for the community.

I don't own a house. If I owned my own home and I wasn't worried about stealth I'd probably have 2-5k of HID going and pull lbs instead of oz... BUT I don't own a house and I have to live with the fear of surprise inspections, unscheduled maintenance, etc.

That fear kept me from growing for almost 15 years!

Now I am providing for myself and I am living a more comfortable lifestyle. I don't have to worry about running out, or a city-wide drought, or getting pulled over on my way home from the dealer. I also don't have to wait around for the lazy dealer to call me back, wait for him to meet me and then go home with something far inferior to the price tag.

10k basement (or warehouse) grows are amazing and my hat's off to anyone who can undertake such an endevor.

But there are a lot more of us living in dorms, apartments and rented housing that would grow if we know how easy and inexpensive it is. (And the WORST of my homegrown is better than anything I've ever gotten commercially. My wispy bits of popcorn fluff from lower side branches get me higher than 90% of the nugs I've gotten from a dealer.

I have a fulham workhorse 8 ballast and 4x 55watt 3000k sylvania bulbs + sockets on the way from 1000bulbs.com.

the workhorse 8 is only rated to handle a max of 3x 55w. It can handle 4x50w. Some people are over-driving them, but others (like knna, whose math I respect madly) have pointed out that overdriving the ballast results in ALL of the lights operating at less-than-optimal-capacity and potentially shortening their lifespans.

Just an FYI.

If your planning to grow in soil, and need to move the plants around from time to time to manicure or water- how will you avoid jostling the lights if they are hung in the middle of the cabinet at such tight intervals?

I don't know if I'll stick with the small containers. I might go for a larger container size or experiment with different sizes in the new cab.

But I think the benefits of the MASSIVELY boosted penetration will make up for the tedium of having to reach behind a few lights to get the plants in between. The ones that aren't directly between two bulbs should be easy to place and remove. You could also put drawer slides on the floor of the cab and slide each segment out in order to reach the plants in back. Keep in mind we're talking about a cab that's only 1.5 ft deep. Reaching all the way to the back is not going to be difficult.

Will it be more effective to top light the plants through glass, or vertically through cool tubes? Consider that placing the lights vertically might only be practical if they are placed against a wall, and not hung with 360* visibility.

When I was first considering PLL, I was thinking about growing a bunch of TINY (like 200+ TINY 3"-6" at maturity plantlets) under vertical lighting. The reason is that you want to keep those lights as close as possible. You want the whole plant to be growing within the footprint of the light.

At a distance of 1ft from the light source, you are only getting about 4000 lumen from each 50w pll. But at a distance of 6 inches, you're getting about 16,000 lumens from each 50w. At a distance of 3" you're getting an incredible 64,000 lumens from each 50w bulb.

So if you think of it that way, by keeping your PLL as close as possible to all of your plants, you are eliminating the need for something like a 250w HPS which puts off 20,000 lumen at a distance of 1 ft. (You're not likely to be able to get all of your plants within 6 inches of the HPS, so I won't bother saying you'd get 80,000 lumens from the HPS at 6 inches.)

The added ability to side light with the PLLs is where (I suspect) we will find our greatest gains.

Having a light density of at least 16,000 lumens throughout the cab, from floor to ceiling means that all parts of all plants should be able to develop to its fullest potential.

 

[Anti]

I couldn't agree more, Anti's original experiment was what really got my mind going on cab design. It was when I saw the high pod that I thought of putting it together with a micro design like this that things really started to come together in my head.

Yeah. The highpod is the shit. Anybody who doesn't know what we're talking about needs to see it.

I built my current cab with CFLs because of my high paranoia about wiring this thing up.

Now that I've got some basic electrical work under my belt (fans, lights, etc on my current cab and a few other projects) I'm much more confident about building a cab that will blow my current one out of the water.

(That pic above is one plant, btw.)
​

 

[twrex]

My current idea that I'm working on is to have two separate pedestals which would blend in inside a house and be wired up on the inside like the highpod. One for moms/veg and the other for growing out one or two massive plants. I think combining that with defoliation could be amazing, and since you are only growing one or two full plants at a time you can take your time and pick your best clones to put in there. It's also a lot less conspicuous than a giant trashcan with a noisy fan-bucket on top.

My current idea is to put four lights just in the corners of such a cab, but if you're doing two plants you could add a fifth light vertically in the center for added penetration all throughout. The yields you could get off a 1sqft space with that kind of method could potentially be sick. Taking this idea further you could make the pedestals taller (stack pl-ls inside for added height) and veg them until they are massively tall and I things could get ridiculous real fast. Probably be very easy to overgrow a space like that.

 

[Anti]

Probably be very easy to overgrow a space like that.

Real easy to overgrow my current space. For instance, I recently switched from using my home-made bubble cloner to using jiffy peat pellets. Not only did 24 of 25 clones survive, but within days they've already outgrown plants that are about to be harvested in a few days.

(My theory is that roots must've been getting damaged in transfer from bubble cloner to soil... while the jiffy pellet goes straight into the soil so fewer roots are disturbed by the transplant.)

I've actually thought about doing what you're talking about... like you could get some big old 1990's home stereo speakers and use them as individual grow chambers.

 

[twrex]

I've actually thought about doing what you're talking about... like you could get some big old 1990's home stereo speakers and use them as individual grow chambers.

I was thinking about something purely decorative, that way its lack of function (speakers which aren't putting out sound) is not questioned.

 

[MrAwder]

the workhorse 8 is only rated to handle a max of 3x 55w. It can handle 4x50w. Some people are over-driving them, but others (like knna, whose math I respect madly) have pointed out that overdriving the ballast results in ALL of the lights operating at less-than-optimal-capacity and potentially shortening their lifespans.

Are any of Fulhams ballasts rated for 4x55w? I was under the impression the 7 & 8 are 220W so I have been running 4x55W on my 7. I see this is a mistake, but think I will just let it be for the time being.

ForstyBuds - yes you are right, the PVC elbows are unnecessary. I started that design from a previous version and forgot to remove a few things. One issue however with that design is light trapping the exhaust fan in the top area.

Anti - have you looked at 80W PL-Ls at all? Are they as efficient in regards to lumen output as 50 or 55s? You could maybe use 3 smaller ballasts rated at 160 (if one exists) with 2 80s on each for 480W total. Just a thought. If they give better penetration or anything it might open up new lighting arrangements for getting max lumens.

 

[MrAwder]

A slightly cleaner version of my last sketchup. Here I'm only using 6x55W PL-L in flower and 2 36W on mother/veg side. 3 moms in 1gal pots, 3 veggging in 1 gal pots. 6 flowering in 1 gals. semi-perpetual but not so many plants that it is a hassle. I want to be able to run 3 strains at a time. Only question is if you can run 3x55w+1x36W off one ballast.

Would be using scrubninjas vent design. One in back of flower, 2 (maybe 1 if its 100% light proof?) separating flower and veg. Each row of flowering plants would have a pullout drawer built from 1"x2"s and plywood covered in plastic to act as drain pans at the same time.

The footprint is 4'x2'. I need it 2ft deep because of what will be going on top. The whole thing is framed with 2"x2"s and covered in either 1/2" plywood or tempered hardboard.

 

[twrex]

They are rated at 220w but from what's been reported by others in the forum the warranty does not cover them running full-out all the time.

 

[Anti]

I was thinking about something purely decorative, that way its lack of function (speakers which aren't putting out sound) is not questioned.

No reason that the speakers would necessarily have to lack functionality. Or you could be all macguyver and get a couple of smaller speakers and mount them inside the bigger speaker up near the top so that you don't lose much space on the inside.

 

[Anti]

Are any of Fulhams ballasts rated for 4x55w? I was under the impression the 7 & 8 are 220W so I have been running 4x55W on my 7. I see this is a mistake, but think I will just let it be for the time being.

There are people doing it, but if you look at Fulham's website, they don't have any ballasts that are rated to handle 4x55. The 8 is rated to handle 3x55 or 4x50.

Anti - have you looked at 80W PL-Ls at all? Are they as efficient in regards to lumen output as 50 or 55s? You could maybe use 3 smaller ballasts rated at 160 (if one exists) with 2 80s on each for 480W total. Just a thought. If they give better penetration or anything it might open up new lighting arrangements for getting max lumens.

No. I wasn't aware of 80w pll. I'll take a look. (Goes to look.) Ok. I looked. 80w PLL are rated at 6000 lumen, compared to 4000 for a 50w. This suggests that a percentage of that 80w is being converted to heat, which is a bad thing, imho.

4000 lumen / 50w = 80 lumen per watt
6000 lumen / 80w = 75 lumen per watt

Not a major difference, so your suggestion might be worthwhile. Does anybody have any real world experience with 80w pll?

 

[Tilt]

I like the ideas so far. I would like to point out some of the problems I have with my set up.
1. The tubes are getting cover with resin and dust. I clean them off every week. They are cheap to replace though
2. I do some damage to fan leaves and any branches because my plants are so close together when taking the plants out.
3. sometimes the bulbs rest against the plastic of the tube and any leaves that touch that area get heat damaged. ( this could be solved by an insert to keep the bulb centered)

 

[Anti]

1. The tubes are getting cover with resin and dust. I clean them off every week. They are cheap to replace though

It occurs to me that you could form a bit of chicken wire into a 2" diameter cylinder around the lights to prevent plants from being able to brush against the tubes without much loss of light.

3. sometimes the bulbs rest against the plastic of the tube and any leaves that touch that area get heat damaged. ( this could be solved by an insert to keep the bulb centered)

Good to know. I'll plan for that.

 

[Tilt]

Are you going to do perpetual harvest with plants at different stages in the flower chamber?

One of the benefits of doing it is the taller mature plants get access to more light by being above the canopy.

I have a couple of plants that have grown to the top of the cab. They just bend over and keep going. It is nice that I dont have to worry the main cola will grow into the light and get fried.

I had a weird idea of doing an upside down scrog kinda like those tomato planters along the top of my cab