Another Canna Coco Tap Water Question

[drgr33nuk]

Here's what's not on your water analysis

http://water.epa.gov/scitech/drinkingwater/dws/ccl/ccl3.cfm#chemical

3rd reason to use less tap water yuk

 

[dutty]

Ah OK where abouts are you? The iron is low but sulphate is high. Sulphate is a compound. Could be something else but most common is iron sulphate. This could build up in your root zone. Plays with the zinc and copper mobility.

This is another reason why I would use pure RO. I work in the hydroponics industry so I might be able to suggest an alternative available in your country.

From germany, near bielefeld. Means iron sulphate is the same as iron so i dont have to supplement extra iron? Or is it not accessible to my plants. And is my cal really to low? Maybe some epsom salt would do? Am i even right with mag def or is it cal?

How much of what do my babies need/what is good on coco in the first place? Maybe theres a table around you could link to.

Forgot to say thank you for your help so far thanks alot guys

 

[dutty]

Btw could get my hands on a bottle Technaflora's MagiCal.. for 25euro shipping so.. not. Epsom salt would be a rly great alternative what i can see so far, if cal isnt low. Next alternative is to buy extra canna mag, cal, and if iron isnt accessible, iron too... not the best.

 

[dutty]

im not afraid to go straight ro. Seems to me like the best way, if you add all the plants need to 00, crap stays out. My ro system makes 30L in 2 and a half hour. But which nutes i should use then? And, maybe thats smth for the next run, still half 5L buckets of canna a+b around here.

 

[RetroGrow]

Have never used RO water for Canna coco, except for final flush. If you use RO water, you need more calcium. If you use tap water, allowing for the chlorine to evaporate for 24 hours, you don't need any added cal/mag, at least in my case. Why pay for water and cal/mag if it's not necessary? There is nothing wrong with tap water. If it is safe to drink, it is safe for plants. As far as nutrients, if you want to spend the extra money for Canna nutrients, that's fine, but you will get just as good if not better results with Maxibloom from GH, at a fraction of the cost. Already has cal/mag in it. See K.I.S.S. thread:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=191645
Other recommended coco threads which will answer all of your questions:

Best brands of coco:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=175245

Coco Hempy Style:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=147954

 

[dutty]

Have never used RO water for Canna coco, except for final flush. If you use RO water, you need more calcium. If you use tap water, allowing for the chlorine to evaporate for 24 hours, you don't need any added cal/mag, at least in my case. Why pay for water and cal/mag if it's not necessary? There is nothing wrong with tap water. If it is safe to drink, it is safe for plants. As far as nutrients, if you want to spend the extra money for Canna nutrients, that's fine, but you will get just as good if not better results with Maxibloom from GH, at a fraction of the cost. Already has cal/mag in it. See K.I.S.S. thread:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=191645
Other recommended coco threads which will answer all of your questions:

Best brands of coco:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=175245

Coco Hempy Style:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=147954

sry but i alrdy saw the other pinned posts, and i cant see how this 3 posts will help me with my problem. Great that your tap water is good, we are talking about my tap water
and where is gh cheaper than canna? 5L gh bloom is 39euro and canna coco ab is 41. But you give 15ml/L gh max and just 3,8ml/L max canna coco (what for me would be much to high anyway, talking bout the shedule). So what is cheaper now?

Please, no "ive said something" posts. Will just make it harder to understand

 

[dutty]

sry... 15ml on 10L?! Havent said anything

 

[Snow Crash]

Canna Coco is 4.5% Calcium. It is the second most abundant element in the bottle behind Nitrogen. If you need more Calcium just bump your base.

For Magnesium I'd recommend using simple Epsom Salts. 1/8th tsp per 4 liters should get you around 12-15ppm of that element, which is all it really takes to impact the ratio of elements in solution with the ppms currently down where they are.

Your tap water doesn't look bad to me. About what I'm using without issue. I think your problems might be related to the age of your coco. As it breaks down it releases Potassium. As a cation, K+ competes for uptake with Ca++ and Mg++. Your media may be rapidly decomposing at this point, explaining the high EC from your slurry test and the nutrient deficiency you've been battling.

Do you mix in some new stuff with each run or just keep recycling the old?

 

[RetroGrow]

and where is gh cheaper than canna?

GH Maxibloom, is MUCH cheaper than the very expensive Canna nutes. Not even close.
But you seem to have a "handle" on things, so as you were. It's your money.

 

[drgr33nuk]

Coco doesn't "Decompose". Ever seen coco coir mats ? What happens an ion exchange is where one ion replaces another. There are two types. Cation and anion. Cation being positive ions and anion being negative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_exchange

Calcium, magnesium & potassium are all positive ions. What actually happens is the coco comes loaded with potassium from the source. This is then "buffered" which means washed and treated with cal / mag to create an ion exchange and preload the coco with mag / cal elements so there's less of a ion exchange.

The rest get released when you use the media and this is why canna does not have a grow / flower because it relies on the cation exchange for potassium. This is why it's got lots of cal / mag already in the nutrients.

Reusing your coco actually reduces the amount to potassium available because all has been used previously when feeding your plants.

It is true that canna nutrients are for softwater (0.4EC) and not RO (0.0EC) but you can run at a higher EC and add additional Cal / Mag and in your case with old coco potassium due to the number of times used.

Good luck

 

[drgr33nuk]

http://www.canna-uk.com/videos/coco_and_buffering

This video explains alot.

 

[Snow Crash]

Coco doesn't "Decompose". Ever seen coco coir mats ?

Wrong. http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/opp4542

From the CANNA Article "Growing on Coco"
...After several months of decomposition, the substance begins to acquire some usable characteristics such as better moisture retention, the amount of potassium and other salts released slows to a reasonable level, and the structure remains intact. In this state, there is a fairly short period that the coco peat is usable in container plant production.

Ideally, the coco peat has to go degenerate further to actually work with the plant correctly, but by then much of the structure is lost and the usable time in situ is severely shortened. While later stages of coco degradation are very acceptable as a soil amendment, it is not suitable as a sole growing medium. However, the structural problems are just a small part of the issue...

...The availability of the nutrients present is affected on a changing scale along with continuing decomposition...

What happens an ion exchange is where one ion replaces another. There are two types. Cation and anion. Cation being positive ions and anion being negative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_exchange

Calcium, magnesium & potassium are all positive ions. What actually happens is the coco comes loaded with potassium from the source. This is then "buffered" which means washed and treated with cal / mag to create an ion exchange and preload the coco with mag / cal elements so there's less of a ion exchange.

The rest get released when you use the media and this is why canna does not have a grow / flower because it relies on the cation exchange for potassium. This is why it's got lots of cal / mag already in the nutrients.

Wrong.

CANNA doesn't have a Bloom because they have Cannazym. At the recommended dosage it alters the NPK ratios for Bloom. PK13/14 additionally is used to further increase the amount of PK available. They designed their system differently, with potassium in mind, but it's not "why" they skipped the Bloom nutrients.

Whatever... Have fun.

 

[drgr33nuk]

Wrong. http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/opp4542

From the CANNA Article "Growing on Coco"
...After several months of decomposition, the substance begins to acquire some usable characteristics such as better moisture retention, the amount of potassium and other salts released slows to a reasonable level, and the structure remains intact. In this state, there is a fairly short period that the coco peat is usable in container plant production.

Ideally, the coco peat has to go degenerate further to actually work with the plant correctly, but by then much of the structure is lost and the usable time in situ is severely shortened. While later stages of coco degradation are very acceptable as a soil amendment, it is not suitable as a sole growing medium. However, the structural problems are just a small part of the issue...

...The availability of the nutrients present is affected on a changing scale along with continuing decomposition...



Wrong.

CANNA doesn't have a Bloom because they have Cannazym. At the recommended dosage it alters the NPK ratios for Bloom. PK13/14 additionally is used to further increase the amount of PK available. They designed their system differently, with potassium in mind, but it's not "why" they skipped the Bloom nutrients.

Whatever... Have fun.

WRONG from canna's website

http://www.canna-uk.com/coco_a_b

Thanks to the special characteristics of coco substrate CANNA COCO doesn’t have a Vega and Flores variant.

Second thing at the rate of decomposition his coco should be good for about 3 years

 

[drgr33nuk]

The decomposition your talking about is the treatment process. Heres a snippet from botanicare's ales pitch

Cocogro is a superior coir fiber because it is aged a minimum of eighteen months and has finished its decomposition stage. In addition, Cocogro is exposed to rain water from at least three monsoon seasons, which naturally washes harmful salts from the final product. Most other coir fibers are only 4 to 5 months old and may have excessive potassium and salts that require chemical treatment.

http://www.botanicare.com/Cocogroreg-Coir-Fiber-P69.aspx

Also where did you dream up that cannazym affects the uptake of nutrients ? Cannazym is a blend of enzymes that break down dead matter. Show me a canna article that supports your theory.

Coco coir will keep it's structure for at least 20 years (100 years to fully break down).

 

[drgr33nuk]

One more thing on this I've just seen the canna USA site and it does indeed say in the first paragraph that it improves nutrient uptake. But then goes on to explain this is because ...

CANNAZYM contains several easy-to-absorb vitamins that stimulate the plant to form new roots. A well-developed root system uses of a lot of young growing-points. Elements like calcium, magnesium and iron are absorbed exactly by these growing-points.

So ... I think this is canna pushing marketing to the limit Sounds like an idea in a board meeting on what to say to sell cannazym It may be enriched with vitamins that increase root growth. Enzymes also have the power to break down compounds to their elements and make available for the plant. but does NOT contain any NPK.

As for your comment on PK ? WTF every nutrient company on the market has a PK booster in their range. This is not because they are compensating for anything it's because some plants need lots of P & K late flowering for fruit development. Making this into a additive gives the grower more control on how much different geneo / phenotypes receive.

I'm not trying to troll but just defending my corner Nuff said on this and I'm sure you will come up with more distorted information.

Good luck OP.

 

[carson]

Cannazym has P and K in it, read the label. 0-2-1. This affects the ratio of nutrients as Snow Crash said. I don't see anywhere he talked about nutrient uptake, only where you brought that up to try to argue.

If you've used coco for an extended period of time, you know that it does change over time, both in its texture and in the way it holds and releases certain elements.

I think the arguing and trying to prove who is smarter is pretty immature and really doesn't help the thread - in fact, it turns people off from participating.

 

[Snow Crash]

You just triple posted? Seriously? Is this a European thing? Edit button man, not using it makes the thread hard to read.

Cannazym is a 0-2-1. I never said it would affect the uptake of nutrients. You're putting words in my mouth and that's trolling 101.

Cannazym IS nutrients. At 10ml/gallon it adds ~23ppm Phosphorus and ~23ppm of Potassium. Might not sound like much but it turns their 5-4-3 ratio into P dominant 5-6-4 ratio. I do find their line to lack necessary K for cannabis (as they depend on decomp to release the K it needs), but for many flowering plants this isn't a poor ratio.

A, B, C-annazym.

 

[drgr33nuk]

Sorry I stand corrected cannazym does have a NPK ratio but OP's coco will be good for at least another 6 grows. Canna do not even mention about cannazym affecting the coco NPK and it's universal.

It's quite clear that canna relies on the cation exchange between the coco and the nutrient. I was just trying to help a guy out and got someone telling me I'm wrong when I'm not. Well apart from cannazym having a NPK

I'm not trying to prove anything I was giving helpful advice.

CANNA doesn't have a Bloom because they have Cannazym. At the recommended dosage it alters the NPK ratios for Bloom. PK13/14 additionally is used to further increase the amount of PK available. They designed their system differently, with potassium in mind, but it's not "why" they skipped the Bloom nutrients.

Is to be nice horse poo But I do agree this is gone way off topic.

Canna coco is high in lignin, this slows down the decomposition process down to about 10 years. My original comment was wrong, coco decomposes but at such a slow rate it's not going to be the cause of this growers problems.

 

[dutty]

Hello again

10 days later and my babies exploded.
31. mai


10. june


it's day 18 of flowering and i loosened the chains since 8 days now. No binding anymore. My experience says that the stretch will go on to week 5 what brings me in some trouble, my height again. On the other hand im rly happy, havent seen them so vital for long time.

Also the Epsom salt worked for what i could see. I added it 2 times, each 15g per 60L what worked well. At least it didnt become worse. I also worked around the parameters and recognized some other things, mostly from your input here and the canna website. The new videos are great, i saw them some weeks ago. The explanation with the K mg/ca in coco brought a lot of comprehension. The theory with the heavy K output from rotting seemed right for me first. Maybe the ratio of k/mg/ca in my coco is broken. But there are also a lot of old roots in it. I will simply change it next run.

what i changed:
I lowered the ph to 5,6 to 5,7. I recognized that my auto watering raised the ph up by 0,1 to 0,2 just by running, i think because of the oxygen brought through the drippers and the pump. So my plants get 5,7 to 5,8 to the roots now. Canna sais explicit that red stems come from sulfur (or N what i cant have since my leafs are dark green) deficiency (and not! from P deficiency) which is best absorbed at lower ph. In combination with the Epsom salt (consists of Mg and Sulfur) the red stems havent spread anymore.
I dont correct the ph later what brings the ph up to 6,1/6,2 where mg is absorbed best.

Now in the stretch phase i also raised the EC to 1,5 (0,4 water + 0,9 a+b + 0,1 cannazym +0,1 pk 13/14) what seems a bit to high, my runoff is now at 1,6 again what could be a sign for to much, right? I changed the mixing procedure too. I wait at least 24 hours before i use my (half tap half ro) 0,4EC water (because of the chlorine in the water). First i add ph down to get a ph under 6,5 (because i've red that high ph destroys the fertilizer). And now i add cannazym all the time (because of the additional p and k) like canna sais, what should change the ratio away from my dark green "to much N" leafs. Before i used it every 5th tank. My white widow got p def very quick now why i add 2,5ml/10L pk 13/14 too. I will raise it to 10/12,5 slowly to week 6 now.

All in all i'm very optimistic again. Just the complete lower leafs get bright leaf veins. Dono if its a def again (if so, does smb know what def it could be?) or just the absence of light down there. I will make a 1,5/2,5 coco test to define the EC and ph in the medium again. Maybe theres a flush coming in week 4 to 5.

So far, so good. Thanks for your help guys. Im thankful for any other tip. Sorry for my german street/tv english love u

 

[drgr33nuk]

Hello again

10 days later and my babies exploded.
31. mai
View Image

10. june
View Image

it's day 18 of flowering and i loosened the chains since 8 days now. No binding anymore. My experience says that the stretch will go on to week 5 what brings me in some trouble, my height again. On the other hand im rly happy, havent seen them so vital for long time.

Also the Epsom salt worked for what i could see. I added it 2 times, each 15g per 60L what worked well. At least it didnt become worse. I also worked around the parameters and recognized some other things, mostly from your input here and the canna website. The new videos are great, i saw them some weeks ago. The explanation with the K mg/ca in coco brought a lot of comprehension. The theory with the heavy K output from rotting seemed right for me first. Maybe the ratio of k/mg/ca in my coco is broken. But there are also a lot of old roots in it. I will simply change it next run.

what i changed:
I lowered the ph to 5,6 to 5,7. I recognized that my auto watering raised the ph up by 0,1 to 0,2 just by running, i think because of the oxygen brought through the drippers and the pump. So my plants get 5,7 to 5,8 to the roots now. Canna sais explicit that red stems come from sulfur (or N what i cant have since my leafs are dark green) deficiency (and not! from P deficiency) which is best absorbed at lower ph. In combination with the Epsom salt (consists of Mg and Sulfur) the red stems havent spread anymore.
I dont correct the ph later what brings the ph up to 6,1/6,2 where mg is absorbed best.

Now in the stretch phase i also raised the EC to 1,5 (0,4 water + 0,9 a+b + 0,1 cannazym +0,1 pk 13/14) what seems a bit to high, my runoff is now at 1,6 again what could be a sign for to much, right? I changed the mixing procedure too. I wait at least 24 hours before i use my (half tap half ro) 0,4EC water (because of the chlorine in the water). First i add ph down to get a ph under 6,5 (because i've red that high ph destroys the fertilizer). And now i add cannazym all the time (because of the additional p and k) like canna sais, what should change the ratio away from my dark green "to much N" leafs. Before i used it every 5th tank. My white widow got p def very quick now why i add 2,5ml/10L pk 13/14 too. I will raise it to 10/12,5 slowly to week 6 now.

All in all i'm very optimistic again. Just the complete lower leafs get bright leaf veins. Dono if its a def again (if so, does smb know what def it could be?) or just the absence of light down there. I will make a 1,5/2,5 coco test to define the EC and ph in the medium again. Maybe theres a flush coming in week 4 to 5.

So far, so good. Thanks for your help guys. Im thankful for any other tip. Sorry for my german street/tv english love u

Excellent news !!! Glad to hear the videos helped.

You just triple posted? Seriously? Is this a European thing? Edit button man, not using it makes the thread hard to read.

Cannazym is a 0-2-1. I never said it would affect the uptake of nutrients. You're putting words in my mouth and that's trolling 101.

Cannazym IS nutrients. At 10ml/gallon it adds ~23ppm Phosphorus and ~23ppm of Potassium. Might not sound like much but it turns their 5-4-3 ratio into P dominant 5-6-4 ratio. I do find their line to lack necessary K for cannabis (as they depend on decomp to release the K it needs), but for many flowering plants this isn't a poor ratio.

A, B, C-annazym.

Forgot about this post I'm sorry you think I'm trolling but I don't agree. Again here your figures are different again. 23ppm P & 23ppm K does NOT match the 0-2-1 ratio ? But again I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. If anyones interested in the discussion, here's a link to the poor guys thread we hijacked. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=286889