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Dropping half the Canna A for flowering

bobthegrower

bobthegrower

Member
Was just jigging the numbers on the nute calc and came up with this formula.

5 ml/gal Canna A
10ml/gal Canna B
5ml /gal Calimag
6ml /gal Koolbloom
5ml /gal silica blast

This gives the following

N 101ppm
P 133ppm
K 220ppm
Mg 50ppm
Ca 140ppm
Fe 1.3ppm
S 20ppm

Follows the Lucas profile and the 4:2:1 K:Ca:mg profile

K looks a bit high for Coco but very similar to the K.I.S.S profile which folk seem to have no problem with. (am already running test plant with KISS and 6/9 +pinch)

Anyone think I'll get excess K issue?

Thanks

Bob
 
Snow Crash

Snow Crash

Active member
Veteran
Need to run both at equal volumes. They depend on a chemical reaction for the availability of the elements.
 
D

drgr33nuk

Member
LOL this is fun :D

Snow Crash said:
Need to run both at equal volumes. They depend on a chemical reaction for the availability of the elements.
Click to expand...

WRONG

from cannas website

Why A&B nutrients?

CANNA COCO nutrients consist of two parts, an A part and a B part. We separate these parts for a reason. As it happens, if some of the elements in part A and B are thrown together at the same time, they clog together. The plant cannot absorb this. That's why you should first add the A component and then the B component!

The chemical reaction is what they are trying to stop not achieve :D

Have fun ;)
 
bobthegrower

bobthegrower

Member
Water comes out the tap @ 40ppm and 7.0-7.2 pH consistently.

The strain I'm running has been on 10ml/gal of A + B plus 5ml/gal Calmag all the way through a 2 month veg . I know this sounds strong but she's a real calmag and nute hog. All plants are tip top condition , just wanted to lower the nitrogen going into flower , hence the halving of the A part .

1st time in coco so I do not want to upset the K:Ca:mg matrix , hence the Question.
 
D

drgr33nuk

Member
Again without a full water analysis it would be hard to say. It's close but easy rectified if you have adverse reaction. I'm afraid it's trial and error on this one in my opinion.

Sorry couldn't help more.
 
Snow Crash

Snow Crash

Active member
Veteran
drgr33nuk said:
LOL this is fun :D
Click to expand...

:laughing:

tfg. I guess I got myself a fan.

Yes. Elements react. I think we are all aware that they react.

Coco A & B Directions of Use

A ready to use fertilizer solution is made by diluting A & B concentrates in equal amounts with tap water...

In equal amounts with tap water.
Equal amounts.
Equal...

At the CANNA Symposium last July in San Francisco they (the CANNA scientists and sales reps) really dropped a lot of knowledge. One of the larger topics for them was the interaction of A+B nutrients in various kinds of water. Soft and Hard Tap versus RO mostly. The lack of contaminants in RO water allows it to be very reactive with the atmosphere. Something CANNA has realized is that their nutrients will form bicarbonates in RO water, making them less available for uptake, through this reaction with the air. This is why CANNA recommends using tap water at 100-250ppm. The hardness acts as a conditioner and stabilizes the solution to maximize availability.

With regards to soft water at 40ppm, I don't think that it can have that much bad stuff floating around. Nitrogen, sulfur, sodium, calcium, and magnesium will make up the bulk of that 40ppm, but even if it was all of just one element that still wouldn't be enough for alarm.

I recommend dropping your Cal-Mag Plus to 1.5-2ml per gallon for the first 3-4 weeks of bloom. This will cut your Nitrogen by about 10% (from ~160ppm to more like ~140ppm). I strongly recommend cutting the Canna A+B both down to around 7-8ml per gallon for another dip of about ~25-30ppm. This should cut your total Nitrogen by almost 25%. Add in 10ml/gal Cannazym or another PK containing product (Botanicare Hydroplex or General Hydroponics Liquid KoolBloom at 2ml/gal) and you'll be good to go ratio wise.

I like to keep a little Epsom Salt around for flowering. The Magnesium requirements increase from what was needed during Veg. By cutting the base and Cal-Mag down the Mg also dip. Adding 1/8th teaspoon per gallon is enough to offset that decrease and keep the balance of that element for healthy growth in this stage of life.
 
gaiusmarius

gaiusmarius

me
Veteran
Snow Crash said:
:laughing:

tfg. I guess I got myself a fan.

Yes. Elements react. I think we are all aware that they react.

Coco A & B Directions of Use

A ready to use fertilizer solution is made by diluting A & B concentrates in equal amounts with tap water...

In equal amounts with tap water.
Equal amounts.
Equal...

At the CANNA Symposium last July in San Francisco they (the CANNA scientists and sales reps) really dropped a lot of knowledge. One of the larger topics for them was the interaction of A+B nutrients in various kinds of water. Soft and Hard Tap versus RO mostly. The lack of contaminants in RO water allows it to be very reactive with the atmosphere. Something CANNA has realized is that their nutrients will form bicarbonates in RO water, making them less available for uptake, through this reaction with the air. This is why CANNA recommends using tap water at 100-250ppm. The hardness acts as a conditioner and stabilizes the solution to maximize availability.

With regards to soft water at 40ppm, I don't think that it can have that much bad stuff floating around. Nitrogen, sulfur, sodium, calcium, and magnesium will make up the bulk of that 40ppm, but even if it was all of just one element that still wouldn't be enough for alarm.

I recommend dropping your Cal-Mag Plus to 1.5-2ml per gallon for the first 3-4 weeks of bloom. This will cut your Nitrogen by about 10% (from ~160ppm to more like ~140ppm). I strongly recommend cutting the Canna A+B both down to around 7-8ml per gallon for another dip of about ~25-30ppm. This should cut your total Nitrogen by almost 25%. Add in 10ml/gal Cannazym or another PK containing product (Botanicare Hydroplex or General Hydroponics Liquid KoolBloom at 2ml/gal) and you'll be good to go ratio wise.

I like to keep a little Epsom Salt around for flowering. The Magnesium requirements increase from what was needed during Veg. By cutting the base and Cal-Mag down the Mg also dip. Adding 1/8th teaspoon per gallon is enough to offset that decrease and keep the balance of that element for healthy growth in this stage of life.
Click to expand...

interesting, been a long time since i was able to talk with a canna rep. so the cannazym is actually adding pk to the nutrient solution and not just a coco conditioner helping break down old roots and dissolve salts?

did they say anything else about ro water? any recomendations about mixing ro and tap in cases of high tap ec? what about a ro water fert?
 
mack 10

mack 10

Well-known member
Veteran
i had my water tested by canna, the results came back at 0.6 ec in the sample, my blulab truncheon always says 0.2-0.4 flashing. The lady said it was not the best for hydro and I would be better to use soil and mix half and half r.o. to tap water.
 
Snow Crash

Snow Crash

Active member
Veteran
gaiusmarius said:
interesting, been a long time since i was able to talk with a canna rep. so the cannazym is actually adding pk to the nutrient solution and not just a coco conditioner helping break down old roots and dissolve salts?

did they say anything else about ro water? any recomendations about mixing ro and tap in cases of high tap ec? what about a ro water fert?
Click to expand...

Yup, they assert that the elements are there to improve the preservation of the other intangibles in the bottle, but the ratios are altered noticeably by its use.

Mixing RO and tap is what they suggested for very hard water. They recommend giving the water a couple minutes to mix and settle. Soft water is fine to add a buffering agent like Cal-Mag. Personally, I've used up to 0.6 EC city water, untreated (not left out), with the program on a light feed and had no issues and no need for additional Cal-Mag. But each water supply is different and you just can't know until you tinker.

There was also a lot of talk about silicates and when to add them. The additional fulvic acids and chelates in the program, along with the high calcium and possibly sulfur in the water, can create a myriad of different problems with precipitates and nutrient availability. CANNA hadn't reached a consensus on when was best to add the Silica but they did agree that having it in the solution before the addition of the base nutrients did reduce the white precipitate cloud that forms when the alkaline is added to an element rich solution. So, jury still out on that one...

Here's some links for where I get my stuff:
Water Test $16.96
EC/pH Combo Meter $199.95 (MSRP is $308)
Canna Coco A+B 1L set $22.95 w/free shipping
Cannazym 1L $23.95 w/free shipping
PK 13/14 250ml $6.50 w/free shipping
Hydroplex $21.50
KoolBloom Liquid $13.95
 
Last edited:
gaiusmarius

gaiusmarius

me
Veteran
mack 10 said:
i had my water tested by canna, the results came back at 0.6 ec in the sample, my blulab truncheon always says 0.2-0.4 flashing. The lady said it was not the best for hydro and I would be better to use soil and mix half and half r.o. to tap water.
Click to expand...

i noticed myself that my cheap ec meter i have in 1 grow is not as reliable for the low measurements as my slightly better ec meter. i have 1 place with tap ec of 0.6 so i use ro 70% and 30% tap. but if i measure that water with the cheapo ec meter it will say 0.3 even though both meters are calibrated with the same calibration liquid. i guess all that matters is that it's close in the higher numbers. they will both show ec 1.4 at the same water, all the way up to 3.0 they both show the same levels, only plain water will they measure differently. expensive meter will read 0.00 for my ro water while the cheapo reads 0.1 i just ignore it. drove me nutz for a bit. till i realized that it's not important.
 
D

drgr33nuk

Member
Snow Crash said:
:laughing:

tfg. I guess I got myself a fan.

Yes. Elements react. I think we are all aware that they react.

Coco A & B Directions of Use

A ready to use fertilizer solution is made by diluting A & B concentrates in equal amounts with tap water...

In equal amounts with tap water.
Equal amounts.
Equal...

At the CANNA Symposium last July in San Francisco they (the CANNA scientists and sales reps) really dropped a lot of knowledge. One of the larger topics for them was the interaction of A+B nutrients in various kinds of water. Soft and Hard Tap versus RO mostly. The lack of contaminants in RO water allows it to be very reactive with the atmosphere. Something CANNA has realized is that their nutrients will form bicarbonates in RO water, making them less available for uptake, through this reaction with the air. This is why CANNA recommends using tap water at 100-250ppm. The hardness acts as a conditioner and stabilizes the solution to maximize availability.

With regards to soft water at 40ppm, I don't think that it can have that much bad stuff floating around. Nitrogen, sulfur, sodium, calcium, and magnesium will make up the bulk of that 40ppm, but even if it was all of just one element that still wouldn't be enough for alarm.

I recommend dropping your Cal-Mag Plus to 1.5-2ml per gallon for the first 3-4 weeks of bloom. This will cut your Nitrogen by about 10% (from ~160ppm to more like ~140ppm). I strongly recommend cutting the Canna A+B both down to around 7-8ml per gallon for another dip of about ~25-30ppm. This should cut your total Nitrogen by almost 25%. Add in 10ml/gal Cannazym or another PK containing product (Botanicare Hydroplex or General Hydroponics Liquid KoolBloom at 2ml/gal) and you'll be good to go ratio wise.

I like to keep a little Epsom Salt around for flowering. The Magnesium requirements increase from what was needed during Veg. By cutting the base and Cal-Mag down the Mg also dip. Adding 1/8th teaspoon per gallon is enough to offset that decrease and keep the balance of that element for healthy growth in this stage of life.
Click to expand...

We all know elements react but your original statement again is not true. Canna a does not.react with b.

Although followed by some good advice spot on really if your not into playing with the ratios of canna.

Even though this has nothing to do.with op post and ratios this is news to me. So pure water allows the elements to react with the air becoming compounds? I never considered this!! I'm going to ring Stan the man. (canna / ferro scientist)later and have a chat. If anyone has questions ask here and I'll post the replies.
 
Last edited:
gaiusmarius

gaiusmarius

me
Veteran
silly question i know, but can they think of any reason why i have better results when i recirculate my nutrient solution using A+B plus cannazym rather then running to waste?plants leaves might not look as perfect as when running to waste, but the bud production is better for me when i recirculate.

i have heard it suggested that coggr A+B is better when running to waste?
 
H

Hottish

Active member
Anyone any thoughts on dropping half the Canna B for veg in Coco DTW

bobthegrower said:
Was just jigging the numbers on the nute calc and came up with this formula.

5 ml/gal Canna A
10ml/gal Canna B
5ml /gal Calimag
6ml /gal Koolbloom
5ml /gal silica blast

This gives the following

N 101ppm
P 133ppm
K 220ppm
Mg 50ppm
Ca 140ppm
Fe 1.3ppm
S 20ppm

Follows the Lucas profile and the 4:2:1 K:Ca:mg profile

K looks a bit high for Coco but very similar to the K.I.S.S profile which folk seem to have no problem with. (am already running test plant with KISS and 6/9 +pinch)

Anyone think I'll get excess K issue?

Thanks

Bob
Click to expand...
 
gaiusmarius

gaiusmarius

me
Veteran
my thought on it are clear, no way, i have mothers vegging perfectly with coco a+b in equal amounts and see absolutely no reason to mess with this product, it really works as good as it gets imo the way it is, leaving out half the B will leave your plants unhappy you can be sure even in veg. if you really can't deal with using a flowering fert for veg, you could always buy the coggr vega and use that on your vegging plants. but in the end the canna a+b is the perfect food for the coco no matter what stage of growth.
 
Coconutz

Coconutz

Active member
Veteran
gaiusmarius said:
i noticed myself that my cheap ec meter i have in 1 grow is not as reliable for the low measurements as my slightly better ec meter. i have 1 place with tap ec of 0.6 so i use ro 70% and 30% tap. but if i measure that water with the cheapo ec meter it will say 0.3 even though both meters are calibrated with the same calibration liquid. i guess all that matters is that it's close in the higher numbers. they will both show ec 1.4 at the same water, all the way up to 3.0 they both show the same levels, only plain water will they measure differently. expensive meter will read 0.00 for my ro water while the cheapo reads 0.1 i just ignore it. drove me nutz for a bit. till i realized that it's not important.
Click to expand...

Its likely that your pens require different calibration liquids
I never calibrate my ec meters
If its RO water it can be hard to measure anyway.
These pens arent lab grade accurate
 
gaiusmarius

gaiusmarius

me
Veteran
yeah the better pen has 1.4 and 3.0 calibration points and liquid, the cheaper one has only the 1.4 calibration point.
 
whadeezlrg

whadeezlrg

Just Say Grow
Veteran
I used to run house & garden @ different ratios of A + B in order to get my desired nute profile(using cannastats calculator and the gh 6/9 as a basis to work from) it worked great for years. within the last 2 years or so I've been running canna coco @ 7&7, I've had healthy vigorous high yeilds since running the h&g and it continues into the results I've had with canna, although for consistencies sake I will note that I have gone less than 1.25# per 1kw one time since using canna and that run involved a move mid flower along with a bit of excess heat and drought conditions, so needless to say a knock outta the park wasn't all that likely for that run to begin with. canna works awesome at equal levels, but i personally wouldn't hesitate to plug in my own numbers and let it ride, afterall you may just be a bit ahead of the curve ;)
 
D

drgr33nuk

Member
Snow Crash said:
:laughing:

tfg. I guess I got myself a fan.

Yes. Elements react. I think we are all aware that they react.

Coco A & B Directions of Use

A ready to use fertilizer solution is made by diluting A & B concentrates in equal amounts with tap water...

In equal amounts with tap water.
Equal amounts.
Equal...

At the CANNA Symposium last July in San Francisco they (the CANNA scientists and sales reps) really dropped a lot of knowledge. One of the larger topics for them was the interaction of A+B nutrients in various kinds of water. Soft and Hard Tap versus RO mostly. The lack of contaminants in RO water allows it to be very reactive with the atmosphere. Something CANNA has realized is that their nutrients will form bicarbonates in RO water, making them less available for uptake, through this reaction with the air. This is why CANNA recommends using tap water at 100-250ppm. The hardness acts as a conditioner and stabilizes the solution to maximize availability.

With regards to soft water at 40ppm, I don't think that it can have that much bad stuff floating around. Nitrogen, sulfur, sodium, calcium, and magnesium will make up the bulk of that 40ppm, but even if it was all of just one element that still wouldn't be enough for alarm.

I recommend dropping your Cal-Mag Plus to 1.5-2ml per gallon for the first 3-4 weeks of bloom. This will cut your Nitrogen by about 10% (from ~160ppm to more like ~140ppm). I strongly recommend cutting the Canna A+B both down to around 7-8ml per gallon for another dip of about ~25-30ppm. This should cut your total Nitrogen by almost 25%. Add in 10ml/gal Cannazym or another PK containing product (Botanicare Hydroplex or General Hydroponics Liquid KoolBloom at 2ml/gal) and you'll be good to go ratio wise.

I like to keep a little Epsom Salt around for flowering. The Magnesium requirements increase from what was needed during Veg. By cutting the base and Cal-Mag down the Mg also dip. Adding 1/8th teaspoon per gallon is enough to offset that decrease and keep the balance of that element for healthy growth in this stage of life.
Click to expand...

This has niggled me for a while now. How does reverse osmosis become more reactive with the atmosphere ? I've spoken to our supplier and a few knowledgeable guys and no one can work out what this is about. I promise to phone canna tomorrow and ask about this for a definitive answer.

The only thing we could come up with is H20 (WATER) + (CO2) (from air) = H2CO3 (carbonic acid). Increase the PH to 7 and you will get HCO3- + H+ but nothing that will bind with an element within the nutrients ?
 
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