Amended with Mycorrhizae VS Not

[mrwags]

So adding Myco to a GH 0-6-9 feed schedule would be pointless? This would kill the bacteria, no?

Marlo my good man the best advice you could get here is to take what you read with a grain of salt.

If it makes sense to ya try it but EVERY room is different water is different and styles are as well so take heed in what you try and if it works share it and if it doesn't share that as well.


Good Luck
Mr.Wags

 

[big twinn]

I agree, its way easier and cheaper to go organic and the beneficiaries will make a HUGE NOTICEABLE difference.

Heres the rootball from a male i culled in a 2L bottle just after a week or two from transplant.

 

[mrwags]

I gotta give major props to all you guys who are smart enough to make your own nutes. I myself have cuts that if my god forbid I had to pay for could cost me 6,000 a pound so in my eye to spend a bit on food for her imo is money well spent.

Thank you for sharing and when I get room I gotta try it.

Be Well
Mr.Wags

 

[ShroomDr]

Greengrow Mycorrhize told me salt nutes will kill the mycorrhizae dead (I believe it's anything over 32ppm of K.)

Ive read this too, but i dont believe it anymore. I run GH 6+9, so my P is ~60ppm (thought it was P, not K as the limiting factor; my K level is >100ppm). Over the last 3 years, Ive seen mushrooms in my coco i attributed to using 'Plant Success' Granular.

I didnt expect anything, but after i finished a cubenis project (rye berries + casing, basically a big cake) (Dont ask, i forgot casing mix is not the same as poo, straw, etc) a couple of months ago, i let this cubenis substrate dry way the fuck out, and just crumbled it up and added it to my used coco pile. Now im 95% sure ive got cubes growing in my veg tents! This is not a good thing. Im not going to eat them given my ferts (and stockpile from previously mentioned project), and im sure they are semi competing with the plants. Cubes substrate shrinks because of water loss and substrate consumption.

The caps i saw from the 'Plant Success' were yellowish, the new ones are more golden and red (FWIW cap color is a terrible way to id any unknown mushroom, but given the known inoculates, it helps a lot here). Again, i dont think the cubes are beneficial, and it is far from an optimum environment for the shrooms to grow, but under my canopy they are...

 

[40AmpstoFreedom]

I took this last night, Dark spores, brown top, and if it bled blue I'd have eaten it heh:

 

[vStagger Leev]

I've seen the same ones in my soil! Gotta love the living dirt.

 

[big twinn]

I use a TON of Mycorrhizae but i havent had mushrooms on the top soil. TONS of root growth though that is seen in my pictures in my previous post.

What other living organisms, fungi do you all add to your soil aside from mycorrhizae?

 

[40AmpstoFreedom]

Liquid Karma, Myco, EWC tea are my main three. I use guanos when its a specific nutrient need. Not sure if all those count as living but that's what I do.

 

[big twinn]

I use Mycorrhizae, what ever is in FFOF and Light Warrier, Black strap mollasses, Blood meal/Bone meal, Kelp meal, lime, bat guanos, and i feel like something else im missing, thats organic. Isn't there a root fungus or soil living organism thats like "Rhizo"-something???After using Mycorrhizae i'd like to add more to making my soil living.

 

[Tropical Rain]

Ive read this too, but i dont believe it anymore. I run GH 6+9, so my P is ~60ppm (thought it was P, not K as the limiting factor; my K level is >100ppm). Over the last 3 years, Ive seen mushrooms in my coco i attributed to using 'Plant Success' Granular.

I didnt expect anything, but after i finished a cubenis project (rye berries + casing, basically a big cake) (Dont ask, i forgot casing mix is not the same as poo, straw, etc) a couple of months ago, i let this cubenis substrate dry way the fuck out, and just crumbled it up and added it to my used coco pile. Now im 95% sure ive got cubes growing in my veg tents! This is not a good thing. Im not going to eat them given my ferts (and stockpile from previously mentioned project), and im sure they are semi competing with the plants. Cubes substrate shrinks because of water loss and substrate consumption.

The caps i saw from the 'Plant Success' were yellowish, the new ones are more golden and red (FWIW cap color is a terrible way to id any unknown mushroom, but given the known inoculates, it helps a lot here). Again, i dont think the cubes are beneficial, and it is far from an optimum environment for the shrooms to grow, but under my canopy they are...

So what is your experience with running it in coco do you see any difference then "parasitic" shr00ms growing alongside the plants?
TR

 

[Guest 150314]

Greengrow Mycorrhize told me salt nutes will kill the mycorrhizae dead (I believe it's anything over 32ppm of K.) Organic ferts are fine, but if you're using salt ferts there shouldn't be any difference in the plants. This will be interesting!

I don't know if it's the tricho or micho fungi in advanced piranha and tarantula but I charge my rockwool with it and add it to the rez along with salt nutrients and you can see the fungus on the top layer of the rockwool. It's a dark green layer, I figured it was algae but I use it in dirt outside and see the exact same thing.

I have noticed the same fungus growing in outdoor plants I top dressed with compost, I wish I had a microscope to look at them...

 

[ShroomDr]

So what is your experience with running it in coco do you see any difference then "parasitic" shr00ms growing alongside the plants?
TR

Too early to say what the cubes have done. So far the plants look unaffected and healthier than ever.

As far as the plant success myco, Its worth noting that its a (3-1-4) plus, ive always added earth worm castings at the same time, so who knows which works, only that the transplants do well 99% of the time. I only add them with transplants (mixed into re-used coco:chunky perlite (90:10).

 

[spurr]

high,

I just wanted to drop in real fast and post up some facts about AM fungi ("Arbuscular Mycorrhizal" fungi, a type of endomycorrhizal fungi), formally called VAM ("Vesicular-Arbuscular Mycorrhiza"). I noticed quite of few misconceptions in this thread and I hope to help provide a few corrections and insight. AM fungi are greatly misunderstood and misrepresented by most companies selling AM fungi. I think some of the points below may affect this thread in a positive manner:


1. P at the level of > 30 ppm P (not P2O5) greatly hinders AM fungi. Once P exceeds ~30-35 ppm sporulation is greatly hindered (pretty much stops), as well as infection of host roots and growth of "mycosphere" (re "extraradical mycelium"). Thus, if a conventional grower is using the Lucas formula, or anything with > ~30 ppm P, or if the soilless solution accrues > 30-35 ppm, AM fungi are not going to help the plant.


2. Once P levels are high enough (i.e., sufficient, at least ~20-30 ppm), the plant will reduce the 'food' (sugars) it gives to the AM fungi. This is because the plant doesn't need the AM fungi any longer because the plant has sufficient P. When the plant stops feeding the AM fungi, the AM fungi are greatly hindered ...


3. AM fungi are "fungi imperfecti", not "fungi perfecti". That means AM fungi (and any endomycorrhizal fungi) do not form fruit bodies, that is, they do not form mushrooms. So, if a grower sees fungi fruiting (producing mushrooms) it isn't from any type of AM fungi or other endomycorrhizal fungi.


4. Many spores in a commercial freeze-dried spore product will not germinate, and in fact, Dr. David Douds Ph.D. (a renown AM fungi researcher) told me on the phone that many of the commercial AM fungi products he tested had little to no germination! (all AM fungi products one can by online or at a store are freeze dried spores)


5. Many AM fungi products also include Trichomera spp., another type of fungi. However, Trichoderma spp. is a parasitic fungi, and there is strong evidence it will 'consume' AM fungi as spores and young hyphae, as well as mycelium. This isn't so much of a problem if Trichodram spp. is added after AM fungi has started infecting the host roots. The moral is, do not buy AM fungi product that has Trichoderma spp., if it can be avoided.


6. It takes at least a couple of weeks for AM fungi spores to germinate and start infecting host roots. Thus, if a grower adds Plant Success, even *if* the spores germinate (which is far from guaranteed) it will be at least 3-4 weeks until the host has been infected to a sufficient degree (ex., > 15-20% of root biomass-length). I have grown AM fungi many times using Bahia grass as host and a vermiculte/compost or vermiclute/vermicompost medium; I have used my microscope to that end.


7. Increased Co2 in media will increase growth rates of many AM fungi ...


8. I dislike Dr. Mike Amaranthus Ph.D business practices, from http://www.mycorrhizae.com/. Dr. Amaranthus's company is the source of AM fungi for Great White (i.e., Plant Success), and other brands selling AM fungi products in hydro stores. I dislike Dr. Amaranthus's business because I believe he is being disingenuous with some products he is selling, e.g., inclusion of Trichoderma spp. while refusing to show me data proving their tests found Trichoderma spp. did not hinder AM fungi and instead help AM fungi. Not only that, but by inferring his company produces their own products, which is false according to a good friend of mine* he is further being disingenuous.

* My good friend told me a contact he has at Premier (the peat moss company), told him Premier sells Dr. Amaranthus all Dr. Amaranthus's AM fungi products wholesale, and Dr. Amaranthus simply re-packages.

​

9. Addition of humic acid, yucca, glycine, carbs, etc., to AM fungi products does not help AM fungi; it's not 'food' for AM fungi. It's just fluff to make a person think they are getting a 'better' product.


10. It's not possible to know if, and to what degree, AM fungi may have infected host roots without (slightly) complicated root staining and "arbuscule" identification inside said root(s). See the following pages for assay guides, the most common assay for root infection (aka "association") is MIP ("Mean Infection Percentage"). One method a grower could use to see if the host is infected is to look at the root(s) under a microscope to see if hyphae are extruding from the root; however, that isn't the best method because it doesn't identify arbuscles inside the roots:

1. (assay explanations) http://invam.caf.wvu.edu/methods/assays/assayindex.htm
2. http://invam.caf.wvu.edu/methods/mycorrhizae/mycorrindex.htm
3. http://mycorrhizas.info/method.html

11. Here are a few good sources of sound science on AM fungi, further reading if anyone is interested:

1. International Culture Collection of (Vesicular) Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi: link (this is where I tend to get live cultures)
2. Mycorrhizal Associations: The Web Resource: link
3. Mycorrhiza Literature Exchange: link

12. Here are two worthwhile reads from INVAM:

"Culture methods and inoculum production: A reality check"
INVAM, Newsletter Vol. 4, No. 2; September, 1994
http://invam.caf.wvu.edu/otherinfo/articles/culturing.htm

"The relationship between colonization and sporulation as affected by environment and competition"
INVAM Newsletter Vol. 2, No. 2
http://invam.caf.wvu.edu/otherinfo/articles/competition.htm​

So, what does that all mean you may ask:

It means in most cases for indoor growers, especially for conventional growers, AM fungi is not going to infect host roots (or will not infect to a worthwhile degree). That means I highly doubt this side by side thread is going to give useful data or evidence, even though I commend SKAGITMAGIC on the thread idea. I think this side by side could/should be conducted differently to get useable data/results.

 

[spurr]

So adding Myco to a GH 0-6-9 feed schedule would be pointless? This would kill the bacteria, no?

Yes, due to the high soluble P. Microbes such as bacteria and fungi, may do okay but it depends upon species, ppm, etc.

 

[spurr]

I don't know if it's the tricho or micho fungi in advanced piranha and tarantula but I charge my rockwool with it and add it to the rez along with salt nutrients and you can see the fungus on the top layer of the rockwool. It's a dark green layer, I figured it was algae but I use it in dirt outside and see the exact same thing.

I have noticed the same fungus growing in outdoor plants I top dressed with compost, I wish I had a microscope to look at them...

It's most likely Trichoderma spp., which 'turns green' after/as it sporulates.

 

[Lazyman]

Fuck yes that's amazing But what if you had ammended your soil with beneficials? maybe you could have gotten well over 12oz's! Have you ever used beneficials in your dirt before? Shit's amazing the root balls I pull out when it's all said and done. The roots are like coils of huge rope! And also about my harvest on the 7oz plants, they were only vegged for 3 weeks, but flowered for 13, plus i use no CO2. Peace and love all, Stagger!

Well, no, closest I did to an organic run was organic hydro over coco, and that was a nightmare and yielded less than the salt-side grow. I run coco now with a dead res, all salt nutes and zero bennies, as my nutes would kill them off, or the bleach in my res would. Basically I found beneficial organisms and supporting their life to not be worth the trouble. Now my res stays clean, I have zero fungus gnats, and yields are better than ever. A little humic acid and carbs in the last few weeks of flower and I get VERY stinky buds and they are super frosty.

Better growing through modern chemistry is where I'm at. Outdoors is a different story, but indoors salt nutes are taken up faster than microherds can digest organics and THEN feed the plants.

 

[simos]

I grow organically, so I can't comment on whether or not salt nutes will slay the herd, but I can say that the addition of even simple granular myco at the time of transplant makes a DRAMATIC difference for me. I see at least twice the growth of non-inoculated plants.

I use cheap ol' Down to Earth granular at the first transplant, and water in a little Great White for good measure. Simple and very effective.

IMO, if you're trying to grow organic without inoculating, you're making life way harder for yourself than it should be.

 

[ShroomDr]

(Its Fox Farms Chunky Perlite in the foreground.) (Cocoerite 90:10. GH 6+9.)

 

[inreplyavalon]

Well, no, closest I did to an organic run was organic hydro over coco, and that was a nightmare and yielded less than the salt-side grow. I run coco now with a dead res, all salt nutes and zero bennies, as my nutes would kill them off, or the bleach in my res would. Basically I found beneficial organisms and supporting their life to not be worth the trouble. Now my res stays clean, I have zero fungus gnats, and yields are better than ever. A little humic acid and carbs in the last few weeks of flower and I get VERY stinky buds and they are super frosty.

Better growing through modern chemistry is where I'm at. Outdoors is a different story, but indoors salt nutes are taken up faster than microherds can digest organics and THEN feed the plants.

Lazyman can you let me know if you add bleach every few days to your res? I wonder because as chlorine bubbles off in a res after about 24 hours, does bleach do the same?
I am going through a nasty bout of some root rot in coco and am now feeding them 1 ml per 5 gallons of nutrient. The issue is that the plants are small and the roots are hurting and won't be drinking much, so the 5 gallons bucket is likely to last a week. Should i add more bleach each time i feed? Thanks!

 

[vStagger Leev]

Lazyman can you let me know if you add bleach every few days to your res? I wonder because as chlorine bubbles off in a res after about 24 hours, does bleach do the same?
I am going through a nasty bout of some root rot in coco and am now feeding them 1 ml per 5 gallons of nutrient. The issue is that the plants are small and the roots are hurting and won't be drinking much, so the 5 gallons bucket is likely to last a week. Should i add more bleach each time i feed? Thanks!

Use "Roots Excelurator" by House and Garden, kills root rot and enhances root growth! Expensive but potent at 5ml/5gal's! Use it and watch it work.