All ears.

[keeper]

Yes! That's exactly the mistake I made in buying FFOF. I figured I could cut out all the mixing and matching I usually do to create the organic mix I need... And I am paying for it now, because it was a mistake to try and take the easy road. Mistakes, admitted, are the longest steps, leading to the top the fastest. Make mistakes, indeed, but know why the action was a mistake. Stumble... but stumble forward. I make mistakes regularly... Without them, we remain stagnant. It's my many mistakes over the years that have lead me to a very strong understanding of what works and what does not work.

Rezdog, who I have a close, sometimes stormy, but always interesting relationship with, tells me I should stick with one method so my smoke always tastes as good as it does when I have things perfectly dialed in. To this suggestion I always tell him, "I'm always trying something different, how can I tell others what works if I don't know what does not work?" Therefore, I will always try new methods, and I will stumble across ideas and methods that do not work.... and I will be able to share with other growers what has worked, and what has not worked. Willingly making mistakes is what keeps me learning. Sticking to one, successful method leads to stagnation.... I am not in the business of stagnation, I am in the business of cannabis growing education, and that takes sacrifice and quite frankly... some balls. It's not a comforting feeling to move on from a method that produces the best smoke I've ever smoked, just to see if another method produces something better. But that's what I do, and I don't see an end to this experimentation any time in the near future.

BTW, I don't think of this so much as bickering, as I do a constructive conversation. And a bit of fun, to be honest.

Off topic sorry...but...
Why flower everything you got in FFOF? You could grow all your plants in your regular mix and keep that smooth smoke flowing. And do a smaller experiment with whatever else on the side.
Right ?

The last two winters i have taken my LC's mix and cut it 50/50 with FFOF cause i did not want to work in the cold to mix a fresh batch up Lucky i have a friends place to store this winter.

 

[Crazy Composer]

Terroir DOES play a part in growing cannabis, of course. I've often shared the story about the tiny, little Sharon White Widow I planted between two pine groves. It tasted like pine, when I KNOW Sharon does not taste like pine under any other circumstances. This showed, without a doubt, that your bud will take on the taste of the soil it is grown in. Keeping this in mind is beneficial in choosing what medium to grow with.

As far as the food web, nitrogen, and all that... keep in mind that something like 99.999999999 percent of all types of botanical agriculture products are NOT meant to be smoked. Plant varieties grown only to smoke, are very few. Tomatoes grown in nitrogen-rich, heavy soil will still taste like good, tasty tomatoes, but cannabis, although it is visually very healthy in the same soil, will NOT smoke as well as a connoisseur requires it to. So... what I'm getting at is... to create the very best smoke, we need to think of soil differently than fruit and veggie gardeners. We need to think of soil as something that barely feeds the plant, and that we can deprive of its ability to feed the plant altogether by harvest time.

Cannabis needs very, very little nutrition to perform well. What I see most often are people providing way, WAY too much nutrition to these plants. And what this leads to is people believing that the best weed in the world is still a little harsh, some even believe that the better the weed, the harsher it smokes!

BTW, the point of the bubblegum dream was not the sweetness of the strain, or the taste of bubblegum at all... the point was that it was completely clean inside, and that the cleanliness allowed the true flavor of the herb to be fully expressed.

I remember watching Howard Marks' documentary, the one where he travels around to the different weed-centric places he used to smuggle to and from. While in Jamaica, he erroneously explained that the better the smoke is.... the harsher it is. I could not believe my ears! He said that this harshness is why people around the world mix their cannabis with tobacco... the help it burn better and be less harsh. THAT was true. People DO mix their weed with tobacco to help it burn better, but if you NEED to do this, it is an indication of less quality in the herb, not more.

The gold standard for clean smoke, in my opinion, is smoke that fills the lungs to capacity, and there is no pain or discomfort, or coughing upon exhale. When you are exhaling large volumes of smoke for what seems like a full minute, and when the smoke is all out, you feel zero urge to cough... THAT is some clean smoke. In order to achieve this standard, you either need to be lucky, or really know what you're doing. Your plant needs to be fed on the edge of starvation the whole time it is flowering, and it must exist in almost completely dead, used up soil by harvest time. maryjohn, if you really know wines, you'll know that the finest grapes are grown in the poorest soils. Now, consider where indicas grow in their natural state... in poor, rocky, mountainous, gravelly soil. Which reminds me... one of my next experiments will have something to do with gravel... but that needs some further consideration before attempting it.

Keeper, of course you're right! With so many decisions to make in life, sometimes I make foolish ones... What can I say. One thing doing all plants the same way DOES help do is... determine that, since all the plats taste of crap in the same way, it MUST be the soil... since the soil is the only difference between the good crops and the bad crop.

 

[bombadil.360]

but I would like to make sure nobody gets the idea you can't grow good pot without flushing and without control over feeding. If your nutes are stored as living beings (microbes), you can accommodate a very wide range of strains with the same soil. And flushing will do nothing, thanks to cell membranes.

cell membranes can be starved, so you can actually flush organics real well.

and no, there is simply no way you can grow good herb without having real knowledge and control over feeding.

if your organic soils are not flushing is probably because the original mix was too hot and contained a bunch of ingredients that are not good to grow herb with.

blood, bone and fish emulsions are big no-nos in organic cannabis growing, these contain too many metals to begin with.

guanos can be ok, but only if used lightly.

kelp is great though.

lets say your organic medium is based on sand, vermiculite, worm castings and some kind of perlite or seed husk. the ratios in which one mixes the soil will help one have control over the amount of nutrients available to plants; in the original mix you can use many mediums that have no nutritional values but which make for a great medium for root-growth, and one can actually add nutes to last for a specific amount of time, after which the plant will start to show apparent deficiencies, and ammending these defiencies become a lot easier than dealing with hot mediums, plus it makes it real easy to flush when the time comes.

 

[maryjohn]

Terroir DOES play a part in growing cannabis, of course. I've often shared the story about the tiny, little Sharon White Widow I planted between two pine groves. It tasted like pine, when I KNOW Sharon does not taste like pine under any other circumstances. This showed, without a doubt, that your bud will take on the taste of the soil it is grown in. Keeping this in mind is beneficial in choosing what medium to grow with.
.

You know, experiments have been done to see how suggestible the human palate is, using wine. Answer is your perception of taste is highly influenced by what you expect to taste. Smart tasters don't deny this truth, they work with it, cultivating consistency over correctness. If I have an idea of how my taste relates to yours, and you report consistently, it can help me translate.

Now considering that the "pine" smell comes from volatile compounds found in the resin that do not dissolve in water, you either imagined the flavor, perceived a related flavor actually present as "pine", or got pine tar on your buds. Your plant suddenly evolving to make pine resin because it was between two pine groves is very unlikely. Grab a pile of old pine needles - they don't smell like pine anymore, and neither does the dirt beneath a pine.

As for your description of smooth weed causing no irritation, I have to call friendly bullshit. For many people, just heating the air that much causes irritation, never mind the addition of plant matter. That has as much to do with which compounds your body has learned to tolerate as anything. I'm an ex cigarette smoker, and since quitting I have developed a deep revulsion to tobacco. It seems harsh and sickening to me, more so that the harshest weed. How do you think the tender tissues of a child would react to the smoothest smoke you can find?

You know from reading Parker, and comparing to any other wine writer, that there is no single way to perceive flavor, taste, etc..., and that we are all set up different. Just like I am not big on vodka, love a peaty scotch, and enjoy all the bitterest greens, I am most likely not as allergic to harsh weed as you. I like a somewhat smoky component to pot, I suspect, the kind you feel more on the tip of the tongue rather than the back of the throat. But like I said, I have always been most attracted to the sights an smells before smoking, and find that MJ is a tongue numbing palate killer anyway, as all smokes are.

do you have a vaporizer btw?

bombadil? cell membranes can be starved? what does that mean? a cell membrane doesn't eat. Microbes eat, and it's awfully hard to starve them. There's is a whole lot of carbon in your mix. You will be waiting a long time if you hope to kill off a microherd. Probably your whole life. They just keep cycling what's there, and if photosynthetic bacteria are present then N is coming from the air. They eat the medium eventually. Anything I can think of that would kill the microbes over a 3 week period would kill the plant. And quick. The resulting release of nitrates would be disastrous for your flushing, btw.

 

[maryjohn]

blood, bone and fish emulsions are big no-nos in organic cannabis growing, these contain too many metals to begin with.

source? kind of a big statement, buddy. Is it based on inustry wide studies? Something you heard?

To make Neptune's Harvest fish hydrolysate, the US eastern seaboard is being raped. I am sorry I own a bottle. But I do know it is made from bunker (menhaden), which is a vegetarian filter feeder. There is no bioaccumulation of heavy metals that far down the food chain.

So show me how that is an exception to your rule.

 

[solarz]

Terroir DOES play a part in growing cannabis, of course. I've often shared the story about the tiny, little Sharon White Widow I planted between two pine groves. It tasted like pine, when I KNOW Sharon does not taste like pine under any other circumstances. This showed, without a doubt, that your bud will take on the taste of the soil it is grown in. Keeping this in mind is beneficial in choosing what medium to grow with.

As far as the food web, nitrogen, and all that... keep in mind that something like 99.999999999 percent of all types of botanical agriculture products are NOT meant to be smoked. Plant varieties grown only to smoke, are very few. Tomatoes grown in nitrogen-rich, heavy soil will still taste like good, tasty tomatoes, but cannabis, although it is visually very healthy in the same soil, will NOT smoke as well as a connoisseur requires it to. So... what I'm getting at is... to create the very best smoke, we need to think of soil differently than fruit and veggie gardeners. We need to think of soil as something that barely feeds the plant, and that we can deprive of its ability to feed the plant altogether by harvest time.

Cannabis needs very, very little nutrition to perform well. What I see most often are people providing way, WAY too much nutrition to these plants. And what this leads to is people believing that the best weed in the world is still a little harsh, some even believe that the better the weed, the harsher it smokes!

BTW, the point of the bubblegum dream was not the sweetness of the strain, or the taste of bubblegum at all... the point was that it was completely clean inside, and that the cleanliness allowed the true flavor of the herb to be fully expressed.

I remember watching Howard Marks' documentary, the one where he travels around to the different weed-centric places he used to smuggle to and from. While in Jamaica, he erroneously explained that the better the smoke is.... the harsher it is. I could not believe my ears! He said that this harshness is why people around the world mix their cannabis with tobacco... the help it burn better and be less harsh. THAT was true. People DO mix their weed with tobacco to help it burn better, but if you NEED to do this, it is an indication of less quality in the herb, not more.

The gold standard for clean smoke, in my opinion, is smoke that fills the lungs to capacity, and there is no pain or discomfort, or coughing upon exhale. When you are exhaling large volumes of smoke for what seems like a full minute, and when the smoke is all out, you feel zero urge to cough... THAT is some clean smoke. In order to achieve this standard, you either need to be lucky, or really know what you're doing. Your plant needs to be fed on the edge of starvation the whole time it is flowering, and it must exist in almost completely dead, used up soil by harvest time.

Hey CC, do you think that this could come down to individual genetics? For instance, i've smoked some NYCD and that shit had MAJOR lung expansion, and caused me to cough quite a bit on exhale, and i couldn't really hold the smoke in that long without HAVING to exhale. Then there have been other strains that don't have the same effect, giving me the thought that it came down to the genetics?? Also, i should add that these genetics i'm referring to were all from the same grower, and what i believed to be grown using the same methods. Just thought i'd throw it out there.

solarz

 

[bombadil.360]

source? you need me to give you a source to tell you that blood and fish emulsions (bone not so much) have too many metals in them? maybe they don't have many 'heavy metals', but they sure have a lot more metals than kelp or worm castings.

plus, blood meal and fish emulsions seem to stay/linger on longer in the soil than other organic nutrients; and this would be counter productive when the aim is to get a soil that is easy to flush and control nutrient content.

 

[maryjohn]

who said my aim was to get soil I can flush so I can have total control? I want to grow organic, using a microherd to accomplish all tasks. I find it elegant. I'm tinkering with it in the hopes of adding something to the community, and hopefully together we can figure out some stuff. Call me partisan.

kelp is FULL of metal. It's called potassium, the main reason you add kelp. Blood has iron, good point, and bone meal has a lot of the METAL calcium.

I think you just need to take a peak at the periodic table, and ditch your metalophobia. Metals are mostly a good thing, and you can't have life without them. Your own nerves can't function without sodium, a metal (remember the Na ion and the myelin sheath from 10th grade biology?). At least I think it was sodium... Anyway, a diagonal line drawn from boron (B) to polonium (Po) separates the metals from the nonmetals. Now go through the elements you add to your grow or that you know your plant uses and let us know what percent are metals.

 

[bombadil.360]

who said my aim was to get soil I can flush so I can have total control? I want to grow organic, using a microherd. I find it elegant. I'm tinkering with it in the hopes of adding something to the community, and hopefully together we can figure out some stuff. Call me partisan.

kelp is FULL of metal. It's called potassium, the main reason you add kelp. Blood has iron, good point, and bone meal has a lot of the METAL calcium.

I think you just need to take a peak at the periodic table, and ditch your metalophobia. Metals are mostly a good thing, and you can't have life without them. Your own nerves can't function without sodium, a metal (remember the Na ion and the myelin sheath from 10th grade biology?). At least I think it was sodium... Anyway, a diagonal line drawn from boron (B) to polonium (Po) separates the metals from the nonmetals. Now go through the elements you add to your grow or that you know your plant uses and let us know what percent are metals.

you understood what I meant in your first reply, hence why you used the term 'heavy metals'. now it seems you are just playing semantics.

my objection to blood and fish emulsions are not so much that they do contain traces of heavy metals, but also that they linger on the medium for longer than desired when it comes down to growing cannabis is an organic medium that can be easily flushed and that nutrient control is easily doable.

that may not be elegant and non-partisan or whatever, but it sure grows good smooth smoke.

hungry cannabis is good cannabis I've heard somewhere...

 

[Crazy Composer]

I did not perceive pine because I expected to... I tasted essence of pine in the bud quite by surprise. Inspecting the soil, I noticed there were pine needles in the soil, and since steeping pine needles in water will make pine tea... it stands to reason that the water the plant was drinking was slightly pine-flavored... and this flavor was drawn into the plant. This is why, when using fish emulsion, about ten years ago... I tasted a definite fishiness in my herb... which was one of the most terrible surprises I've ever had growing herb. Of course you will tell me that this, too is impossible... to which I can only reply... what's the point in sharing information with someone who thinks everyone who experiences unlikely things is simply mistaken? I guess there's a point to it somewhere, as I'm still at it.

Now, your comment:

As for your description of smooth weed causing no irritation, I have to call friendly bullshit.

pretty much demonstrates that you have never smoked the kind of herb I'm referring to. Myself, my wife, friends, all sit around and do NOT cough when the herb is right. Again, you assume very, very much about others. You are assuming that what I know to be true, is bullshit simply because you have no frame of reference.

An anecdote for you: I brought some Sharon White Widow to a friend's house one night, and the herb was spectacular, really nice and clean. My friend's girlfriend was there, and she hadn't smoked anything for months, cigarettes, weed, nothing at all. She took a small rip off the bong and it was so smooth that she got over-confident and started taking larger and larger hits. Never coughed once. We warned her that the smoothness was deceiving, and to slow down because this was extremely powerful weed. She was under the impression that you don't get off til you cough... that old line of BS that most smokers still hold to be true. So she insisted to keep smoking. It was so smooth, it was like breathing weed-flavored air. Next thing we know, her eyes are rolling in the back of her head, she's passing out, freaking out, asking if she's dying.

The wife and I regularly comment on how, when crops are grown right, we rarely cough at all. It is not only likely (to me) that the best weed is the least harsh, it is simple and irrefutable truth. My feet are on a carpet right now... and of this I am a sure as I am that really good weed will not make you cough... unless you take too much at once. Will you call bullshit on my feet being on a carpet right now? You have just as much authority to make that call, as far as I can tell. You simply don't (based on what I gather from your own words) have any working frame of reference to tell me about fine smoke. Yet you try anyhow. It's been fun, mostly because you have a way with words, but you use your debating talents to put fancy frames around blank pictures. If you knew about fine weed, you'd not call bullshit on things that are second-nature, know-it-in-your-sleep knowledge to me and others like me.

I don't like vaporizers, I also don't like (the great majority of) hash. I like joints because, usually, the herb is spectacular and there is no better way, IMO, to experience the true essence of fine herb than in a joint. The other way is solar hits, using a magnifying glass to light with.

Starving microbes... hmmm. Let's see if you can stay on the same page as the people who actually know and apply these techniques succesfully... for years on end... let's see if that's possible... Microbes eat organic matter... WE provide this organic matter... when we deprive them of their organic matter they don't have anything to eat, except for trace remnants of what's left, and their own dead bodies. Do you know of some magical, mystical way that soil can get organic matter when it's not given by the gardener? I don't understand how you could not get this... you're a reasonably intelligent person, please get this!

I'll explain again... In my usual soil mix there is very, very little native, built-in organic matter. I use 1 bag of wormcastings per 1/2 bale of promix... this equals roughly 1 part worm castings to 5 parts promix... VERY slight in organic matter. You understand? This also means, since worm castings are a very, very insignificant source of nutrient, that the soil is alive, but not feeding the plants very much at all... understand? Still with me here? Okay... now... after a couple weeks, the plants begin to show early signs of nitrogen deficiency... the sign that it's time to begin top-feeding, ever so slightly. The top-feeding starts with bat and seabird guano powder... the plants rebound from their nitrogen deficiency and begin to grow profusely... all the while remaining right on the edge of deficiency... PERFECT! If you really, REALLY know what you're doing, you will know the very earliest signs of deficiency... at which time another, very small dose of guano powder is applied... the plants respond within a day or two... their starvation is always just a few days away... but you don't allow them to starve... just yet. Still with me? I know this is advanced stuff, it must be because only a very small fraction of growers seem to be able to read their plants so precicely and react conservatively, and correctly to what the plant is asking them. I can do it... and if you'd stop doubting for a minute, you'd learn something more than what some book told you. Just because it's in a book doesn't make it good information. Mein Kampf was a book, a lot of good that did.

Right, so... we have kept the pants just days away from true, full-on deficiency the whole way through flower... now we deny them their guano feedings, and in no time flat they begin to yellow, leaves begin to fall off, the smell of the resins POP and begin to take on aromas best described as heavenly, the taste of the juices that drip from broken leaf stems becomes as clean (on the tongue) as spring water, the plants are starving, and this is good. It doesn't matter what your books say about cell walls etc... these plants are starving for nutrients, and when they are starved, they produce far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, FFFAAARRR superior smoke. Your books may tell you otherwise, but if they are telling you this... they are wrong... ask anyone who grows really good weed... not just weed that's better than their neighbors' weed... but truly world-class weed. There are plenty of people right here on this site who now know how to produce the very best, and they will all tell you about starving the plants... The people who tell you otherwise are growing weed better than their neighbors, sure, and in their world it is the best weed... but it's a big world, and I've been privileged enough to smoke from some of the best growers in the cannabis culture. I actually have a frame of reference beyond what my friends and neighbors have given me to smoke. I can drop names and places to help demonstrate that I have smoked from the best... but that's not my way... you'll have to do what you do best, trust me.

 

[maryjohn]

you understood what I meant in your first reply, hence why you used the term 'heavy metals'. now it seems you are just playing semantics.

my objection to blood and fish emulsions are not so much that they do contain traces of heavy metals, but also that they linger on the medium for longer than desired when it comes down to growing cannabis is an organic medium that can be easily flushed and that nutrient control is easily doable.

that may not be elegant and non-partisan or whatever, but it sure grows good smooth smoke.

hungry cannabis is good cannabis I've heard somewhere...

never mind the partisan thing, that was just playing around. I don't care to quibble about what you said, it's there to read. But I believe you meant to retract your assertion re: heavy metals. You have not quite done that.

Can you tell me why you are worried about nutrients that can't be flushed? If they aren't water soluble the plant can't take them up. They are not in play. Blood meal is chock full of urea, and is the equivalent of guano IMO. But by the time I cook my soil for 2-3 months, it's not urea anymore.

 

[Crazy Composer]

Hey CC, do you think that this could come down to individual genetics? For instance, i've smoked some NYCD and that shit had MAJOR lung expansion, and caused me to cough quite a bit on exhale, and i couldn't really hold the smoke in that long without HAVING to exhale. Then there have been other strains that don't have the same effect, giving me the thought that it came down to the genetics?? Also, i should add that these genetics i'm referring to were all from the same grower, and what i believed to be grown using the same methods. Just thought i'd throw it out there.

solarz

Well, this is the type of thing that makes learning this stuff so fun, and challenging. I've noticed that it only takes the very smallest difference in starvation to make a large difference in smoking quality. The plant that is so starved by harvest that the leaves are falling off, will taste much better than the plant next to it (same strain even) that is a few shades of green darker at harvest time. They may both taste good... but the more starved plant will almost always burn better.

In my experience, the strain matters very little when it comes to harshness. Not to say the different phenotypes are not going to make any difference in the harshness of the smoke, but generally harshness comes from accumulated metals and salts in the plant material.

This also brings up another piece of important information for growers who want the very best smoke... Remember this... once a plant is overfed, even once, there is no way (that I've ever learned of) to undo the damage done to the taste. This is why I insist on keeping my plants on the very edge of starvation at all times.

 

[Crazy Composer]

source? you need me to give you a source to tell you that blood and fish emulsions (bone not so much) have too many metals in them? maybe they don't have many 'heavy metals', but they sure have a lot more metals than kelp or worm castings.

plus, blood meal and fish emulsions seem to stay/linger on longer in the soil than other organic nutrients; and this would be counter productive when the aim is to get a soil that is easy to flush and control nutrient content.

I agree. Here's another anecdote to support this... Even the smellest trout, in the smallest streams across the world are now carrying in their flesh... mercury... a heavy metal. I live next to a pristine, spring fed stream. Last year I caught a tiny brook trout and it swallowed the hook. Poor thing died. So, instead of wasting it, I cooked it up and took one bite. I got an allergic reaction... a reaction that has increased in me over the last two years. You will say that it's simply this allergy... but listen to the symptoms... My chest hurts, phlegm thickens... and most importantly... my mouth tastes like I've been sucking on a tin can... like metal.

I have eaten salmon, in large quantities all my life. My favorite food in the world is properly smoked pacific salmon... the redder the better. I believe I have consumed so much mercury that it has built up in my system to the point where eating mercury-heavy fish now pushes my levels over the top whenever I eat this fish. The taste of metal in my mouth has never been listed as a symptom of normal fish allergy.

Back to the brook trout... I took one tiny bite and I got the metal taste. It was so little that I didn't get chest pains, etc... but I could taste the metal. This is backed up by scientific data that says every stream, no matter how pristine it seems, is now contaminated with mercury. Therefore, even ocean fish that eat veggies are going to be contaminated, and conversely, you will be getting this mercury when you use fish fertilizers. It's unavoidable, almost. The only safe fish are extremely young fish whose bodies are not old enough to have built up enough mercury for us to be concerned with. I can eat tiny sardines with only slight metal taste, but the older, larger ones give me full-on metal taste and chest pains. Cod and pollack are okay for me to eat... sometimes. It varies from fish to fish, probably having to do with where the fish was caught, and how much mercury it was exposed to. Tuna from a can... forget about it... it is a killer for me now.

 

[solarz]

Well, this is the type of thing that makes learning this stuff so fun, and challenging. I've noticed that it only takes the very smallest difference in starvation to make a large difference in smoking quality. The plant that is so starved by harvest that the leaves are falling off, will taste much better than the plant next to it (same strain even) that is a few shades of green darker at harvest time. They may both taste good... but the more starved plant will almost always burn better.

In my experience, the strain matters very little when it comes to harshness. Not to say the different phenotypes are not going to make any difference in the harshness of the smoke, but generally harshness comes from accumulated metals and salts in the plant material.

This also brings up another piece of important information for growers who want the very best smoke... Remember this... once a plant is overfed, even once, there is no way (that I've ever learned of) to undo the damage done to the taste. This is why I insist on keeping my plants on the very edge of starvation at all times.

CC, i guess i look at this a little differently that you...as i believe that the reason i cough isn't really b/c of the harshness of the weed, but rather the lung expansion that goes with it. I'll try to explain...lets just say that theoretically, i can inhaled .5 grams of bud in one swoop. Ok, now in that one swoop, i inhale .5 grams of NYCD and it'll make me cough my fucking lungs out, not because it was harsh...but because it caused my lungs to expand way more than say .5g's of Warlock. This is turn makes me want to only inhale half of the .5g's of NYCD leaving me with the same amount of chest expansion as .5g's of the ISS.

Now i know this is purely theoretical, and a bit convoluted, but i hope it kind of makes sense as to what i was trying to get at with my line of questioning. Honestly, the 2 smokes were both quite smooth, and nothing about it made me feel it was harsh smoke, rather one expanded my lungs way more, and denied me the ability to keep allowing the smoke to fill my lungs without HAVING to exhale (instead of my usual exhaling when i feel my lungs have been filled, and i get that *tingle*).

solarz

 

[solarz]

Just on a side note...to me, i feel/taste that harshness you speak of in the back of the throat on the inhale..or in the nostril region on the exhale (as i sometimes french inhale/exhale to better get a feel for the taste). This is to help explain what i was referring to in the earlier posts about the coughing being from lung expansion (varying based on different strains) , rather than harshness of the weed (which is felt more in the back of the throat, and doesn't really cause coughing..IMHO).

solarz

 

[DARC MIND]

great read
i have to agree with CC,i was told by a respected breeder that starved plants smoke better and ime it is true. i grow different strains all the time so its hard to dial in how much the plant needs and some times i get burnt tips. but when i do get a grow with no sign of over doing it and when flowering the plants fan leaves fade....best smoke hands down and many of my buds will agree. buds who many like to only pay top dollar for clinic weed

i also agree that many feed ther plants way to much and that i am just starting to learn that i have been doing the same. Witch comes to a shock to me
i find my self using less and less nutrients and or soil amendments grow after grow. its fascinating that my plants still swell and fatten up..
good living soil is just a piece of the puzzle in organic great tasting buds.

 

[Crazy Composer]

solarz... the "expansion" you speak of is simply a perception, a feeling in the lungs, not an actual expansion. Fact is... as anything in the world of creation cools, it will contract, not expand. I know this feeling you're talking about, of course, but this is the feeling of the smoke interacting with the lung walls, not expanding in the lungs. Even the cleanest smoke, taken in too large a volume, will cause discomfort. But generally, the great smoke of the world can fill the average smokers' lungs with a rasta-sized hit, and cause no urge to cough. This smoke is rare to find, but I tell you, fellow smokers and searchers for the very best in the world... it IS out there, and you CAN grow smoke like this.

 

[solarz]

I did not perceive pine because I expected to... I tasted essence of pine in the bud quite by surprise. Inspecting the soil, I noticed there were pine needles in the soil, and since steeping pine needles in water will make pine tea... it stands to reason that the water the plant was drinking was slightly pine-flavored... and this flavor was drawn into the plant. This is why, when using fish emulsion, about ten years ago... I tasted a definite fishiness in my herb... which was one of the most terrible surprises I've ever had growing herb. Of course you will tell me that this, too is impossible... to which I can only reply... what's the point in sharing information with someone who thinks everyone who experiences unlikely things is simply mistaken? I guess there's a point to it somewhere, as I'm still at it.

Now, your comment: pretty much demonstrates that you have never smoked the kind of herb I'm referring to. Myself, my wife, friends, all sit around and do NOT cough when the herb is right. Again, you assume very, very much about others. You are assuming that what I know to be true, is bullshit simply because you have no frame of reference.

An anecdote for you: I brought some Sharon White Widow to a friend's house one night, and the herb was spectacular, really nice and clean. My friend's girlfriend was there, and she hadn't smoked anything for months, cigarettes, weed, nothing at all. She took a small rip off the bong and it was so smooth that she got over-confident and started taking larger and larger hits. Never coughed once. We warned her that the smoothness was deceiving, and to slow down because this was extremely powerful weed. She was under the impression that you don't get off til you cough... that old line of BS that most smokers still hold to be true. So she insisted to keep smoking. It was so smooth, it was like breathing weed-flavored air. Next thing we know, her eyes are rolling in the back of her head, she's passing out, freaking out, asking if she's dying.

The wife and I regularly comment on how, when crops are grown right, we rarely cough at all. It is not only likely (to me) that the best weed is the least harsh, it is simple and irrefutable truth. My feet are on a carpet right now... and of this I am a sure as I am that really good weed will not make you cough... unless you take too much at once. Will you call bullshit on my feet being on a carpet right now? You have just as much authority to make that call, as far as I can tell. You simply don't (based on what I gather from your own words) have any working frame of reference to tell me about fine smoke. Yet you try anyhow. It's been fun, mostly because you have a way with words, but you use your debating talents to put fancy frames around blank pictures. If you knew about fine weed, you'd not call bullshit on things that are second-nature, know-it-in-your-sleep knowledge to me and others like me.

I don't like vaporizers, I also don't like (the great majority of) hash. I like joints because, usually, the herb is spectacular and there is no better way, IMO, to experience the true essence of fine herb than in a joint. The other way is solar hits, using a magnifying glass to light with.

Starving microbes... hmmm. Let's see if you can stay on the same page as the people who actually know and apply these techniques succesfully... for years on end... let's see if that's possible... Microbes eat organic matter... WE provide this organic matter... when we deprive them of their organic matter they don't have anything to eat, except for trace remnants of what's left, and their own dead bodies. Do you know of some magical, mystical way that soil can get organic matter when it's not given by the gardener? I don't understand how you could not get this... you're a reasonably intelligent person, please get this!

I'll explain again... In my usual soil mix there is very, very little native, built-in organic matter. I use 1 bag of wormcastings per 1/2 bale of promix... this equals roughly 1 part worm castings to 5 parts promix... VERY slight in organic matter. You understand? This also means, since worm castings are a very, very insignificant source of nutrient, that the soil is alive, but not feeding the plants very much at all... understand? Still with me here? Okay... now... after a couple weeks, the plants begin to show early signs of nitrogen deficiency... the sign that it's time to begin top-feeding, ever so slightly. The top-feeding starts with bat and seabird guano powder... the plants rebound from their nitrogen deficiency and begin to grow profusely... all the while remaining right on the edge of deficiency... PERFECT! If you really, REALLY know what you're doing, you will know the very earliest signs of deficiency... at which time another, very small dose of guano powder is applied... the plants respond within a day or two... their starvation is always just a few days away... but you don't allow them to starve... just yet. Still with me? I know this is advanced stuff, it must be because only a very small fraction of growers seem to be able to read their plants so precicely and react conservatively, and correctly to what the plant is asking them. I can do it... and if you'd stop doubting for a minute, you'd learn something more than what some book told you. Just because it's in a book doesn't make it good information. Mein Kampf was a book, a lot of good that did.

Right, so... we have kept the pants just days away from true, full-on deficiency the whole way through flower... now we deny them their guano feedings, and in no time flat they begin to yellow, leaves begin to fall off, the smell of the resins POP and begin to take on aromas best described as heavenly, the taste of the juices that drip from broken leaf stems becomes as clean (on the tongue) as spring water, the plants are starving, and this is good. It doesn't matter what your books say about cell walls etc... these plants are starving for nutrients, and when they are starved, they produce far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, FFFAAARRR superior smoke. Your books may tell you otherwise, but if they are telling you this... they are wrong... ask anyone who grows really good weed... not just weed that's better than their neighbors' weed... but truly world-class weed. There are plenty of people right here on this site who now know how to produce the very best, and they will all tell you about starving the plants... The people who tell you otherwise are growing weed better than their neighbors, sure, and in their world it is the best weed... but it's a big world, and I've been privileged enough to smoke from some of the best growers in the cannabis culture. I actually have a frame of reference beyond what my friends and neighbors have given me to smoke. I can drop names and places to help demonstrate that I have smoked from the best... but that's not my way... you'll have to do what you do best, trust me.

CC, i seem to be in this VERY problem right now with my Rezdog Wonder Haze grow (plants on the verge of starvation before "flush time"). I started having early signs of N deficiency on day ~45 on a ~80 day strain. I forked in a tablespoon of 10-10-2 guano (rather than .5-12-.5 guano), but my question to you is what would you have done in a situation like that? I haven't really seen anyone who uses the "forking in" method w/guanos really state a concrete amount that they use in a feeding. Also, i should mention, i was using 2gal pots.

Hope i didn't take it off topic, but i felt that it kind of went a long with what's being talked about, maybe we can use it as a teaching tool

solarz

 

[Crazy Composer]

great read
i have to agree with CC,i was told by a respected breeder that starved plants smoke better and ime it is true. i grow different strains all the time so its hard to dial in how much the plant needs and some times i get burnt tips. but when i do get a grow with no sign of over doing it and when flowering the plants fan leaves fade....best smoke hands down and many of my buds will agree. buds who many like to only pay top dollar for clinic weed

i also agree that many feed ther plants way to much and that i am just starting to learn that i have been doing the same. Witch comes to a shock to me
i find my self using less and less nutrients and or soil amendments grow after grow. its fascinating that my plants still swell and fatten up..
good living soil is just a piece of the puzzle in organic great tasting buds.

This is a grower who gets it. Less is more when it comes to growing something you intend to smoke.

 

[Crazy Composer]

CC, i seem to be in this VERY problem right now with my Rezdog Wonder Haze grow (plants on the verge of starvation before "flush time"). I started having early signs of N deficiency on day ~45 on a ~80 day strain. I forked in a tablespoon of 10-10-2 guano (rather than .5-12-.5 guano), but my question to you is what would you have done in a situation like that? I haven't really seen anyone who uses the "forking in" method w/guanos really state a concrete amount that they use in a feeding. Also, i should mention, i was using 2gal pots.

Hope i didn't take it off topic, but i felt that it kind of went a long with what's being talked about, maybe we can use it as a teaching tool

solarz

Well, as long as your soil is still healthy and occupied by beneficial bacterium and fungi, your top-feeding of 10-10-2 is perfect. I've been in the same position as you are in now... know this... once a leaf goes yellow, it can never come all the way back to healthy green... but remember this also... you are not growing leaves, you are growing buds... so keep them barely fed, just enough to keep them from getting any worse. Then... starve the hell out of it for the last couple weeks... let the leaves fall off and everything!

Now, something to note about sativa dominant plants (which I'm not sure if your plant actually is sativa dominant)... sativa dominant plants tend to keep growing roots through their entire life cycle... right through flower... which means you can transplant them half way through flower without any problem at all. Just make sure the soil you use is very, very light in organic material so you don't end up with more nutrient by harvest time than you want. The extra root space would take some stress off the plant and probably give you a better yield than if you kept it in the 2 gallon pot. Again, this is only for sativa dominant plants. Indica plants grow roots profusely up until about 3 weeks into flower... then all growth emphasis goes to the top. So, if you transplant an indica in the middle of flower, the roots barely enter the new soil, and this leads to other issues we don't need to go into here because you aren't growing an indica dominant!