All ears.

[MeltingPOT]

I currently grow using bottled nutes, PBP, FloraNova etc...my herb is ok, but i wanna try something new...
I bought some "BlackGold" wormcasting tea, some Budswel guano, some EJ PH down and some blackstrap molasses...I am wondering if I mix up some ProMix and FoxFarmOF if I could get away with only wormtea and molasses while adding guano for flowering...? Am I thinking this is going to be easier than it will be? I want to go organic, but I want to keep it simple...
Should I bubble wormtea/molasses for 24hours before use? How should I apply the guano?will the FFOF and wormtea/molasses be enough food for veg? What, if anything major am I overlooking?
Treat me like the newb I am, just don't kick me in the balls!

 

[keeper]

"KICK"
wish i could help ya man but i don't use any of them products.
just wanted to get my kick in :friends:

 

[montanaorganics]

currently grow using bottled nutes, PBP, FloraNova etc...my herb is ok, but i wanna try something new...
I bought some "BlackGold" wormcasting tea, some Budswel guano, some EJ PH down and some blackstrap molasses...I am wondering if I mix up some ProMix and FoxFarmOF if I could get away with only wormtea and molasses while adding guano for flowering...? Am I thinking this is going to be easier than it will be? I want to go organic, but I want to keep it simple...
Should I bubble wormtea/molasses for 24hours before use? How should I apply the guano?will the FFOF and wormtea/molasses be enough food for veg? What, if anything major am I overlooking?
Treat me like the newb I am, just don't kick me in the balls!


That sounds like a good mix, BG and FFOF. I would add dolomite at 2 TBSP per gallon of soil. Then I would throw away the earth juice down.
Mollasses and EWC should be plenty. However if you are planning on vegging over 3 to 4 weeks you should probably use some other form of nitrogen. Fish emulsion at 1 TBSP per gallon every 2nd or 3rd watering will do the trick.

Actually it should be easier than you think. I used to follow one of the guano recipes, lately I just grab handfuls of stuff and toss them in my tea.

If you want to bubble a tea you may be able to forget about the emulsion and just add some compost to the mollasses and EWC. Doing this you will be set and ready to make teas with your guano, which is the way to go IMO.

Actually your plan sounds pretty good and without knowing anything else this is all the advice I can think of. Organics are so simple you will be amazed.
Oh, I highly recomend some kelp meal for both veg and bloom.

 

[Crazy Composer]

I'm glad you're asking this before making a big mistake. I have a warning against using FFOF for your potting soil... It grows nice plants... but they taste like SHIT! As a matter of fact... I have been in a bit of a dry spell as far as smoking because I made the terrible mistake of using FFOF as my main organic soil innoculant for the last few harvests. I usually use pro mix and earthworm castings alone, and feed the rest of the time with top-feedings of dry guanos. This time, however, I figured I'd give FFOF a whirl. I have been paying for this mistake, dearly, for some time now. The last couple harvests have been totally sub-par... no matter how much I flush, I can't get that taste out.

FFOF is probably AWESOME for plants like tomatoes, cabbage, etc... but if you plan on smoking what you grow in it... you're in for a terrible surprise. I have hardly smoked anything for weeks now because I can't stand the taste of the pot grown in FFOF. What a mistake! I could probably use the break from smoking... first time in many years... but still... I didn't plan on taking this break... I just won't smoke the FFOF-grown herb.

With my usual soil mix, the plants will yellow if I don't feed them dry guanos... But with the FFOF, the plants will stay a very dark green, whether or not I'm feeding them guanos... This means they are getting tons of nitrogen. This is not good. As with the human body... you are what you eat... and with FFOF your plants ARE nitrogen. YUCK!!!

I will NEVER use that crap again. I will keep it simple, as usual... pro mix, earthworm castings, micorrizae fungus, and dolomite lime... That's it. When they start showing signs of early deficiency... I simply feed them a little dry seabird/bat guano at the surface... They start using it within a day... and I maintain their nutrition this way. All I do at the end is deny them their guano top-feeding for a few weeks and they yellow right up, taste great, and burn smooth.

To hell with FFOF mix!!! I am CONFIDENT in this statement, as I have completely screwed myself for a couple months by using it. It is the ONLY variable that could possibly be causing this nasty taste, it is the ONLY thing I've changed since the bud tasted and burned as well as it usually does. Screw FFOF!!! Don't do it!!! Use it for tomatoes!!!

 

[Crazy Composer]

BTW... I find the process of brewing guano teas a waste of time. This is why... A living, functioning organic soil will be able to be top-fed with straight, dry guano powders (not pellets). The guano will begin to decompose at the surface and the nutrients will be moved through the food web to the roots. I add a couple teaspoons of guano to the surface, then water, agitating the surface soil (with the watering) enough to mix the guano in a little. The guano 'brews" right in the soil this way and nothing is lost. It's so simple, it's crazy how easy it is. Do what you like to do... But I do it the easy way... and the results speak for themselves.

 

[keeper]

Are you only going to use those products ? You could find a few ABC123 mixes HERE, and nail it perfect on your first go at it
i use LC's mix #1 personally blood/bone/kelp

 

[MeltingPOT]

Wow! Thanks for the quick answers guys...
Sounds good MO, mentally noted.

CC! Thanks for swinging through! Appreciate the advice on FFOF, I'll take your word for it...

Keeper...I just read that...I have seen LC's mixes in use before, and they look easy peasy...I think I will do something close to the guano recipe, unsure if I can get away with using EWC tea and not having it in the soil. Then I could continually mix and feed like I do now, gallon by gallon, except naturally....If shit hits the fan I'll backout and do a strict "good at following directions" guano LC run and see what I think....All my boys who run guano have tasty ganja, I'm sick of being envious.

Thanks y'all

 

[maryjohn]

I'm glad you're asking this before making a big mistake. I have a warning against using FFOF for your potting soil... It grows nice plants... but they taste like SHIT! As a matter of fact... I have been in a bit of a dry spell as far as smoking because I made the terrible mistake of using FFOF as my main organic soil innoculant for the last few harvests. I usually use pro mix and earthworm castings alone, and feed the rest of the time with top-feedings of dry guanos. This time, however, I figured I'd give FFOF a whirl. I have been paying for this mistake, dearly, for some time now. The last couple harvests have been totally sub-par... no matter how much I flush, I can't get that taste out.

FFOF is probably AWESOME for plants like tomatoes, cabbage, etc... but if you plan on smoking what you grow in it... you're in for a terrible surprise. I have hardly smoked anything for weeks now because I can't stand the taste of the pot grown in FFOF. What a mistake! I could probably use the break from smoking... first time in many years... but still... I didn't plan on taking this break... I just won't smoke the FFOF-grown herb.

With my usual soil mix, the plants will yellow if I don't feed them dry guanos... But with the FFOF, the plants will stay a very dark green, whether or not I'm feeding them guanos... This means they are getting tons of nitrogen. This is not good. As with the human body... you are what you eat... and with FFOF your plants ARE nitrogen. YUCK!!!

I will NEVER use that crap again. I will keep it simple, as usual... pro mix, earthworm castings, micorrizae fungus, and dolomite lime... That's it. When they start showing signs of early deficiency... I simply feed them a little dry seabird/bat guano at the surface... They start using it within a day... and I maintain their nutrition this way. All I do at the end is deny them their guano top-feeding for a few weeks and they yellow right up, taste great, and burn smooth.

To hell with FFOF mix!!! I am CONFIDENT in this statement, as I have completely screwed myself for a couple months by using it. It is the ONLY variable that could possibly be causing this nasty taste, it is the ONLY thing I've changed since the bud tasted and burned as well as it usually does. Screw FFOF!!! Don't do it!!! Use it for tomatoes!!!

maybe suicide to mess with another moderator, but brains is not my thing.

CC, I am no fan of the industry that produces scams like FFOF, but I have read reports from others with good results, flavor and all. It is possible they are all lying, or that FFOF is not the same all over. Further, many outdoor and indoor growers with also good results use soil that has all the N needed to supply many grows. They don't flush, they may still top dress, and yet no taste issues.

Not saying you didn't experience what you did, but I would like to make sure nobody gets the idea you can't grow good pot without flushing and without control over feeding. If your nutes are stored as living beings (microbes), you can accommodate a very wide range of strains with the same soil. And flushing will do nothing, thanks to cell membranes.

I often hear people complain that they have to do this or that because they don't have the skill or knowledge to mix up a good soil. But we have a sticky right here with a damn near perfect recipe - as in, almost everyone can get the components, and it works with very few issues, usually due to not following the directions. There is zero skill involved. Mix, pour, wait, plant, wait, work, harvest. Easy!

 

[Mr-B]

MeltingPot;

I'm currently in flower with my 1st soil grow but I have learned a couple things in the past couple months.

I mixed up 1 bag (3.8 CF) of Pro-Mix #4 and added 20% FF chunky perlite (awesome stuff!), 2 lbs of green sand, 15 cups of Bone meal, 10 cups of blood meal, 8 cups epsom salt, 10 cups of cotton seed meal and 8 cups of dolomite lime.

I mixed it all up in a tarp and wet it down. Then I put it in a large plastic trash drum. When I opened it up two weeks later the soil had fuzz growing all over it. That's exactly what you want with organics.

I planted two grape apes in the soil and I'm feeding ewc and guano teas every 3rd watering. The plants are bigger than everything else I'm growing and they have 3x as many bud sites.

I'm 2-1/2 weeks in flower so I can't explain how the flowering period went yet.

Hope this helps.

B

 

[Mr-B]

Here is one of the apes


B

 

[Crazy Composer]

maryjohn... you are entitled to your opinion... What I KNOW is... flushing organics CAN be effective, depending on what your soil is comprised of... and... FFOF is made of stuff that breaks down so slowly that it will continue to pump out nitrogen way far past where you want it to... meaning... you WILL be smoking nitrogen. You can (and based on history... WILL) argue against the effectiveness of flushing, and argue that others don't complain about the taste of FFOF-grown buds, etc... But the fact is... I've done this a few times, I LIVE this... the ONLY days of my life for more than a decade where this was not my life was when my wife had to water the plants because I was too sick... So I gotta say... hearing someone say what you say to me is somewhat of a joke, no offense meant... but if it's offensive, that is a natural side-effect of my being honest with you.

Now, to help you understand, possibly, once and for all, that soil CAN be effectively flushed... you'll need to drop what you think you know as certainty and listen up... FFOF is comprised of stuff that breaks down extremely slowly, but in large enough amounts to effectively feed plants for more than 2 months. This is NOT ideal for indoor cannabis gardeners. So, flushing this type of soil does very little because you simply cannot flush out the stuff that makes up the soil, like crab meal and other non-flushable stuff like that.

Now... if you know what you're doing for real... you can build a soil mix that is very light, and will stop feeding the plant fairly early on. If, for instance, you build a soil of pro mix and worm castings... you have a very, very light soil mix that won't feed the plants for long... and this is good... no... this is EXCELLENT. When it becomes apparent that the plants are no longer getting all the food they need from just the soil... you can begin to top-feed with guanos... or liquid organic fertilizers, or whatever you want to use that can be effectively reduced before harvest. In a soil like this... flushing IS effective.... because you are targeting leftover dissolved salts... NOT organic matter. Organic matter cannot be flushed... but this is so obvious I can't believe ANYONE would even think that when I say flushing organics can be effective... that you could possibly be thinking I am referring to flushing organic matter. This is ridiculous, and ridiculous for anyone to think that I may believe organic matter can be flushed out. This is one of those times the expression "duh!" works perfectly. Like, "duh!, do you really think I don't know you cannot flush organic material out of soil?"

When you CAN flush organic soil effectively, is... When the soil is all but depleted of available nutrients, and you are flushing the medium in order to remove trace elements to make them entirely unavailable to the roots. This is not hard to understand... so hopefully, after all this explaining, more than one time, you, maryjohn, will finally understand this concept and stop misleading people to not bother flushing organics.... maybe now you will understand the distinction between the different kinds of soils and which can and which cannot be flushed. I hope so... because when I see your username, honestly, I know you will be trying to tell people that they don't know what they're talking about concerning organics... and it's funny to hear what you say because the scope of your understanding is simply not large enough to be making so many suggestions. It is not in the best interest of the collective to have this kind of information spread, and being a moderator here, I feel somewhat responsible for making sure people are getting the whole picture, not just the well-written, partial opinion of a few opinionated, and under-qualified people.

I suggest you listen more, and find reason to trust that a person like myself, who has been respected for telling it as it is since the early days at Overgrow... and who doesn't say something unless he knows it from actual experience, who is called upon by internationally syndicated cannabis publications to share cultivation knowledge, who is respected by this community for my deep understanding of the topic at hand, might not be making sense to you because you simply aren't thinking on the same level.

Speaking of the early days at Overgrow...I used FFOF when it was first made available... and I remember not liking it then... for the same reason. But I'm always trying new things... and trying old things just to see if I was wrong last time... the results were the same... nice plants... terrible taste. If you need a wider scope of experience from a single person... good luck locating it.

 

[jaykush]

heres how i see it....someone gave me a full line of Fox farms including a bag of FFOF a year or so to test with.

it grew good nugs no doubt, taste was there, and friends liked it.

but compared to real soil, soil with care. the FFOF smoke tasted like shit, like dried plant matter, and to me like 99% of commercial weed (and the high was weaker but i wont get into that). take a toke of quality organic weed and then a hit of FFOF grown herb and 90% of the time you will want to put that pipe down.

now compare the FFOF to some mexi shwagg, and it will be the gold of the world, probably the best tasting herb ever. worth thousands of dollars, but then again toke some real pot with care and it will taste like the mexi dirt. or close to it.

its all in how you look at it.

 

[Crazy Composer]

Yeah... the FFOF bud is well-liked by many people I give it to... Don't get me wrong... I mean, it's loved by most people... but it's simply not what weed SHOULD taste like. Call me a snob or whatever, but I'd rather not smoke at all than smoke weed that doesn't taste right. Case-in-point... I'm NOT smoking right now because all I have is FFOF bud to smoke. Gets me high, but it's not satisfying in the way I expect herb to satisfy. Yes, come to think of it, I am a total pot snob... jaded, used to excellent smoke. So sue me! I'd smoke it if I needed to, like for a headache or if I absolutely needed to get high... but right now... I am smoking nothing at all, and while I'd rather be smoking... I don't enjoy smoking the FFOF bud, so I will detox for a while and wait for the good shit. But the fact remains... FFOF is NOT what you want if you want the truly connoisseur smoke.

 

[maryjohn]

Glad I am entitled to an opinion! That isn't always clear. Thanks man.

this is straight, unimpeachable, rock-hard science, CC: 1) you cannot dissolve something in water unless it is water soluble. 2) plants can only take up nutrients in solution

Your description of FFOF (which I eschew, for the record), could equally apply to LC mix with the nutes mixed in - basically what I use. No flavor problems here. Outdoors, I have had problems before, but I used to put miracle grow on them, so go figure (though I did have some tasty miracle grow buds more than once). Although I am sure I smoke plenty of nitrogen and so do you, since a very large portion of the material smoked can and must contain chlorophyl, the production of which is the top reason for needing N. Without N there can be no buds.

It's obvious your experience with FFOF was shitty, and I stress again that I don't think there is ever a good reason to pay 25$ for that size bag of dirt. And it contains triple phosphate, and who knows what other organic no-no's. And it could be FFOF contains too much high N material either breaks down or slowly dissolves on its own, releasing soluble N. But there is a real distinction between a "slow release" fertilizer like osmocote and the "slow availability" of the nutrients locked into protein bonds, for instance. Then, there is the practice of locking your nutes inside living beings (protein bonds wrapped in an enigma?), where they can't leach, and are available to the plant only in the context of competition or coöperation with the roots.

That last example, where the microbes manage the soil and hold all the nutes and the gardener just cares for the microbes, results in an organic system, quite unlike the conventional model of feeding plants soluble nutrients (in effect cutting out the middleman). No offense intended, but the system you describe, involving soluble nutrients from natural sources and user control over availability, is not what I call organic. Sure, it's better than using synthethic nutes in many ways, and there is no reason to grow organic just to say you are organic, but it's a system that relies heavily on grower talent and skill. Organic growing, on the other hand, is for the most part as simple as following a recipe.

Which has led me to question the simplistic stoner science that since soils too rich in nitrogen make crap weed, it's the nitrogen that makes it harsh. I have read just as convincing arguments that harshness is caused by magnesium, the moon, and any number of things. It's classic post hoc, ergo propter hoc. My classic example is oregano. When oregano gets put in fertile soil like we use for MJ, it tastes like nothing, despite all the added N. Why does it not pick up a harsh taste? Or some kind of N case? Yeah, we aren't smoking it, but the point is just because adding too much of a nute makes smoke harsh, doesn't mean it's the actual nute doing the harshing.


I would say your FFOF was probably too rich from the start, is nothing like my mix and perhaps has soluble nutes (meaning it can be flushed), or is just crap for some other reason. But please, please, give a proper mixed and truly organic soil a try before concluding it doesn't work. Obviously you are good at doing it your way, and that will set high expectations, but i feel you are misinforming a bit here, despite telling the plain truth.

In short, it appears your FFOF experience cannot inform you or anyone else on the challenges and benefits of managing a microherd instead of managing ionic nutes, and I would appreciate it if you make that clear, and not assume your experience sheds any light on the debate over flushing well put together and truly organic soil.

Side note - CC, make yourself some hash. I know it's ubiquitous over there in Spain (I am crazy for Guipúzcoa), but you grew the weed...

 

[MeltingPOT]

With all that absorbed, what would be the difference between me using Promix with EWC mixed in OR just straight Promix with EWC tea? Difference in result I'm talking...

What you are describing CC is exactly what I'm looking for, pretty much a mirrored version of what I do with bottled nutes, except with castings and guano....See if I could get away with just castings and maybe molasses (for the calmag needy) during veg and just guano additive (budswel) for P during flower...this allows me to keep my "soil" free of excess material, and I can handfeed like I usually do....Flushing, meaning having all the nutrients that were applied USED by the plant ,I do, no matter where they get their food from...

MR B...thanks a bunch for your mix info. Plant looks mega healthy. I'm wondering if a premixed organic soil is needed to get the real deal funk herb....If I fail with this handfed shit, I'll be back and begging for recipes!

JayKush, if you don't mind blessing us with a "real soil" recipe example, that'd be the shit! I know what you mean about smoking the real, and I hate to say it, but my herb falls into the 90% of pass herb for me...I need the funk...

 

[BurmeseDragon]

Fox farm has THE highest heavy metal content, that means there is no flushing! It's just impossible to flush heavy metals, they are salts but I dunno about how easy they move on!

Plus worm tea is not going to supplement your NPK, it's more of a soil builder and soil conditioner. Not a real strong nutrient source, but it has those just not what ganja sucks up.

 

[Chesticles]

make some hash CC

one of 9 of my girls is in some FFOF so in 5-6 weeks I'll see whats up, glad i only have one it it, rest are in LC's mix w/ coco and some biotone so i should be able to notice a difference if there is one

 

[idoreallytry]

i

I'm glad you're asking this before making a big mistake. I have a warning against using FFOF for your potting soil... It grows nice plants... but they taste like SHIT! As a matter of fact... I have been in a bit of a dry spell as far as smoking because I made the terrible mistake of using FFOF as my main organic soil innoculant for the last few harvests. I usually use pro mix and earthworm castings alone, and feed the rest of the time with top-feedings of dry guanos. This time, however, I figured I'd give FFOF a whirl. I have been paying for this mistake, dearly, for some time now. The last couple harvests have been totally sub-par... no matter how much I flush, I can't get that taste out.

FFOF is probably AWESOME for plants like tomatoes, cabbage, etc... but if you plan on smoking what you grow in it... you're in for a terrible surprise. I have hardly smoked anything for weeks now because I can't stand the taste of the pot grown in FFOF. What a mistake! I could probably use the break from smoking... first time in many years... but still... I didn't plan on taking this break... I just won't smoke the FFOF-grown herb.

With my usual soil mix, the plants will yellow if I don't feed them dry guanos... But with the FFOF, the plants will stay a very dark green, whether or not I'm feeding them guanos... This means they are getting tons of nitrogen. This is not good. As with the human body... you are what you eat... and with FFOF your plants ARE nitrogen. YUCK!!!

I will NEVER use that crap again. I will keep it simple, as usual... pro mix, earthworm castings, micorrizae fungus, and dolomite lime... That's it. When they start showing signs of early deficiency... I simply feed them a little dry seabird/bat guano at the surface... They start using it within a day... and I maintain their nutrition this way. All I do at the end is deny them their guano top-feeding for a few weeks and they yellow right up, taste great, and burn smooth.

To hell with FFOF mix!!! I am CONFIDENT in this statement, as I have completely screwed myself for a couple months by using it. It is the ONLY variable that could possibly be causing this nasty taste, it is the ONLY thing I've changed since the bud tasted and burned as well as it usually does. Screw FFOF!!! Don't do it!!! Use it for tomatoes!!!

wow now i know,,, i thought 2-3 week flushed were enough, but CC is right, my herb has a taste that is with every strain i thought it was my water and strated using store bought water now i know, i always use straight fpof and then a lil ffof and promix and now nomore ffof,,,,CC have u had any experience witht teh happy frog or light warrior,,,just curious,,,,
MP trying to go simple sounds nice,,,hope everyone here can help u out i know shit about organics lol,,peace

 

[maryjohn]

.Flushing, meaning having all the nutrients that were applied USED by the plant

This is impossible, due to biology. The microherd and plant use the same nutrients. When you apply them they mostly feed the herd. Ballpark figure, 90% of your nutes are in your microherd. That means you are trying to using up 90% of your nutes applied in the last two weeks. That will taste great, i'm sure (i'm kidding it isn't possible). They are there man, even if you are done with them, and they give it up when they get bribed or have it taken from them. If you let things wind down in a well balanced and living soil, it will all be ok. If you flush, that will be ok too, since you can't flush. Actually, I flush from the moment I put them in the soil. If your flushing really did help, it would mean only one thing: you don't have an organic system, and you are growing conventional with organic ingredients. Notice I didn't say "if you think flushing helped". I mean if you really, truly, were able to use up all resources potentially available to the plant, those resources were soluble. High soluble nutes are not characteristic of organic growing.

I'm not critiquing your methods, melt, but your definition. I am always looking for a good definition for flushing based in science, and have yet to hear one.

I know this is crazy for some people to hear, but plants used to grow outside, and nobody came to change the soil every spring. So nature learned to store and mete. Give her a chance to show you what she can do, and you will never go back.

 

[contra]

kick: if you like the smell of your own shit, make it fit. If you like the smell of others don't get your nose too bothered