SecretGardener
Member
Don't think Plant Tone is organic.
EDIT: nevermind it is. lol. All Espoma products are.
advanced nutrients heavy harvest
- Thread starter SmokeyTheBear
- Start date
Don't think Plant Tone is organic.
EDIT: nevermind it is. lol. All Espoma products are.
redneck shogun
I looked at the ingredients of Epsoma Plant Tone and what's throwing off the heavy metal numbers is the addition of poultry manure. Here's a link to database file on a straight organic chicken manure from E. B. Stone and as you can see this product is pretty high in metals across the board.
Poultry manure is a debated subject for many organic farmers - not necessarily cannabis growers. Chicken manure along with bovine derived fertilizers are widely rejected regardless of an 'organic certification'
I pretty much come down on that side as well. I've used composted pellitized chicken manure in the past. I would not do so now or in the future.
HTH
CC
Heavy Harvest works just fine, but if you're using it with coco-coir make sure to supplement with calcium and magnesium once a month or so, the coir sucks up all the ca/mg and your plant will lock out. This isn't specefic to AN's line of nutrients, it's just the properties of coir and this should be done with any nutrients you'll be using with coir.
I don't want to get into it the chem/organic debate much, but I still grow a few plants organically for personal smoke, everything else gets hammered with Heavy Harvest every two weeks - I've done the organics thing in the past and I like the taste, but with large numbers of plants in the ground organic nutrients became a huge hassle/burden for me.
I find it much easier to walk past the plants every two weeks and throw a small palm-full of granules around the plants then forget about it. No bears, no stinky organics, no histoplasmosis...just great results.
Most of my friends do not pre-mix into the soil, they just top dress with a couple tbsp/20 gallon hole then turn on the emitters so the soil stays moist and the nutes have a chance to work into the soil. Two weeks later the soil is ready for planting and will have enough nutrients for the first week or two of the plants life. After that the plant will have recovered from transplant shock and you can start applying another palm-full every two weeks of the plants life.
I don't want to get into it the chem/organic debate much, but I still grow a few plants organically for personal smoke, everything else gets hammered with Heavy Harvest every two weeks - I've done the organics thing in the past and I like the taste, but with large numbers of plants in the ground organic nutrients became a huge hassle/burden for me.
I find it much easier to walk past the plants every two weeks and throw a small palm-full of granules around the plants then forget about it. No bears, no stinky organics, no histoplasmosis...just great results.
Most of my friends do not pre-mix into the soil, they just top dress with a couple tbsp/20 gallon hole then turn on the emitters so the soil stays moist and the nutes have a chance to work into the soil. Two weeks later the soil is ready for planting and will have enough nutrients for the first week or two of the plants life. After that the plant will have recovered from transplant shock and you can start applying another palm-full every two weeks of the plants life.
"I love the smell of arsenic in the morning. It smells like death" - Lieutenant Colonel Bill Kilgore
Slightly misquoted.
CC
Slightly misquoted.
CC
Well, that's the main reason it sucks to be those poor bastards who don't grow their own, they get stuck with whatever the commercial grower hammers his crop with to get maximum yields. I always flush well, I figure that's the least I can do.
I know it's a shitty mentality, but I have money to be made every fall and I simply use what produces the best results with the least effort. If I had a partner in crime (or a few dozen helpers) it would be easy for me to carry in a thousand pounds of amendments to do 200 holes, then if I could produce twice as many clones to account for all the plants that will be rooted up by animals looking for the blood and bone meal then it would be great too!
but since it's just me and I'm already stretched to maximum capacity, I just use whatever is easiest.
SecretGardener
Member
haha you're the reason I don't buy it anymore! Thanks!
N
NinoBrown420
CC,thanks for the post and link,that's some disturbing shit.You had mentioned chicken shit in a couple posts,do you know anything about turkey manure?I picked some up from a local greenhouse, says on the bag its number one in university tests,seemed like a good buy,but I have yet to actually see what it does outdoors.Any input would be much appreciated.Here's a link to the product.
http://www.ttseeds.com/PHP/mcat.php?mitem=3270&search=TURKEY+TROT
Smokey,I had a pal who used HH once,big yield,loaded with garbage,tasted and burned like shit.He no longer uses it.If I were you I would shell out some dough to start over nute wise,but if not,make sure flushing is a priority.
Here's a good post from Mullray on toxic metals in Bat guano and compost, I've also been told that one should NEVER eat veggies grown in compost for this reason:
ere's some examples of Bat guano. Loaded full of heavy metals.
Note:
The absorption of cadmium in the lungs is 10-50%, while the absorption in the gastrointestinal tract is only a few percent. Smokers have about 4-5 times higher blood cadmium concentrations (about 1.5 micrograms/l), and twice as high kidney cadmium concentrations as nonsmokers.
BAT GUANO 0-7-0
Arsenic 11.7000
Cadmium 7.6000mg/kg
Cobalt 12.6000
Lead 1.2000
Mercury 0.0500
GUANO NATURAL ORGANIC PHOSPHATE FERTILIZER 0-7-0
Arsenic 13.3000
Cadmium 10.0000mg/kg
Lead 1.2000
Selenium 5.5000
Mercury 0.0500
Best case scenario....
Bat Guano
TYPICAL ANALYSIS
Civa mg/kg 4, 8
Lead mg/kg 39, 6
Chromium mg/kg 29, 1
Zinc mg/kg 255, 1
Nickel mg/kg 26, 2
Cadmium mg/kg 3
Copper mg/kg 979, 8
Total phosphorus g/kg 5
Total nitrogen % 8, 1
Total organic Matter % 64, 7
Salinity % 0, 35
Electrical conductivity mS/cm 13, 8
Humidity % 8, 7
pH - 2, 09
OK - so let's now look at a couple of those nasty petrochemical fertilizers. We'll use P containing fertilizers to compare it to guano which is used as a source of P in organics.
Monopotassium Phosphate (MKP 0- 52- 34)
Main content, min 99.0 %
P2O5 ≥51.3 %
K2O ≥34.0%
Water insoluble, max 0.1 %
Moisture, max 0.2%
PH 4.4-4.8
As ≤0.0025%
Heavy metal (Pb) ≤0.0003%
Hg None
Cd ≤0.0002% (2mg/kg or 2ppm/kg)
Cr ≤0.0002%
F ≤0.002%
CL ≤0.01%
Monoammonium Phosphate (MAP 12- 61- 0)
Main content, min 99.0 %
P2O5 ≥61.0 %
N, ≥12.0%
Water insoluble, ≤0.1 %
Moisture, ≤0.2%
PH 4.4-4.8
As ≤0.0025%
Heavy metal (Pb) ≤0.0003%
Hg None
Cd ≤0.0002% (2mg/kg or 2ppm/kg)
Cr ≤0.0002%
F ≤0.002%
CL ≤0.01%
let me now throw in some organic rating standards. Let's begin with New Zealand which is perhaps the least polluted country in the world.
New Zealand Organic Regulations
Heavy metals in manures and composts must not exceed,
Metal mg/kg
Zinc 1000
Copper 400
Nickel 100
Cadmium 10
Lead 250
Mercury 2
European and US organic rating standards for composts...
Heavy Metal Limits for Organic Composts (European standards)
Cd 0.7
Cr 70
Hg 0.4
Ni 25
Pb 45
(Ref 3.)
US Standard (Organic Composts)
Cd 4
Cr 100
Hg 0.5
Ni 50
Pb 150
ere's some examples of Bat guano. Loaded full of heavy metals.
Note:
The absorption of cadmium in the lungs is 10-50%, while the absorption in the gastrointestinal tract is only a few percent. Smokers have about 4-5 times higher blood cadmium concentrations (about 1.5 micrograms/l), and twice as high kidney cadmium concentrations as nonsmokers.
BAT GUANO 0-7-0
Arsenic 11.7000
Cadmium 7.6000mg/kg
Cobalt 12.6000
Lead 1.2000
Mercury 0.0500
GUANO NATURAL ORGANIC PHOSPHATE FERTILIZER 0-7-0
Arsenic 13.3000
Cadmium 10.0000mg/kg
Lead 1.2000
Selenium 5.5000
Mercury 0.0500
Best case scenario....
Bat Guano
TYPICAL ANALYSIS
Civa mg/kg 4, 8
Lead mg/kg 39, 6
Chromium mg/kg 29, 1
Zinc mg/kg 255, 1
Nickel mg/kg 26, 2
Cadmium mg/kg 3
Copper mg/kg 979, 8
Total phosphorus g/kg 5
Total nitrogen % 8, 1
Total organic Matter % 64, 7
Salinity % 0, 35
Electrical conductivity mS/cm 13, 8
Humidity % 8, 7
pH - 2, 09
OK - so let's now look at a couple of those nasty petrochemical fertilizers. We'll use P containing fertilizers to compare it to guano which is used as a source of P in organics.
Monopotassium Phosphate (MKP 0- 52- 34)
Main content, min 99.0 %
P2O5 ≥51.3 %
K2O ≥34.0%
Water insoluble, max 0.1 %
Moisture, max 0.2%
PH 4.4-4.8
As ≤0.0025%
Heavy metal (Pb) ≤0.0003%
Hg None
Cd ≤0.0002% (2mg/kg or 2ppm/kg)
Cr ≤0.0002%
F ≤0.002%
CL ≤0.01%
Monoammonium Phosphate (MAP 12- 61- 0)
Main content, min 99.0 %
P2O5 ≥61.0 %
N, ≥12.0%
Water insoluble, ≤0.1 %
Moisture, ≤0.2%
PH 4.4-4.8
As ≤0.0025%
Heavy metal (Pb) ≤0.0003%
Hg None
Cd ≤0.0002% (2mg/kg or 2ppm/kg)
Cr ≤0.0002%
F ≤0.002%
CL ≤0.01%
let me now throw in some organic rating standards. Let's begin with New Zealand which is perhaps the least polluted country in the world.
New Zealand Organic Regulations
Heavy metals in manures and composts must not exceed,
Metal mg/kg
Zinc 1000
Copper 400
Nickel 100
Cadmium 10
Lead 250
Mercury 2
European and US organic rating standards for composts...
Heavy Metal Limits for Organic Composts (European standards)
Cd 0.7
Cr 70
Hg 0.4
Ni 25
Pb 45
(Ref 3.)
US Standard (Organic Composts)
Cd 4
Cr 100
Hg 0.5
Ni 50
Pb 150
More from Mullray in the organic think tank thread:
Couple more examples, speaking of the ocean.
BIO-FISH 7-7-2
Arsenic <0.5000
Cadmium 7.9000 (Through the roof)
Lead 1.2000
Selenium <5.5000
Mercury 0.0500
KELP EXTRACT POWDER 1-0-19
Arsenic 28.6000 (eh gads)
Cadmium 1.0000
Cobalt 1.0500
Lead 1.0000
Selenium 1.0000
Mercury 0.1000
Oh here's some blood and bone examples. Organic my arse..... There is no such thing as organics - it's a scientifically flawed myth. Organic soils are full of both organic and inorganic heavy metals and these are uptaken by plants. The word organics is false advertising and in every way scientific mumbo jumbo circulated by hippy capitalists cashing in on a multi billion dollar industry.
2-14-0 GRANULATED STEAMED BONE MEAL
Arsenic 0.2500
Cadmium <0.0030
Lead <0.0410
Selenium 0.5600
Mercury 37.5000 (check out the mercury ---- Jesus, talk about mad hatters disease)
GARDEN SAFE BONE MEAL 6-12-0
Arsenic <10.0000
Cadmium <0.5000
Lead 1.0000
Selenium <10.0000
Mercury <0.0500
OK - how bout some earthworm castings....
EARTHWORM CASTINGS BLEND 8-0-0
Arsenic 25.6100
Cadmium <0.1000
Lead <0.1000
Selenium <0.0500
Mercury <0.2000
WORM CASTINGS 1-.1-.3
Arsenic 9.8800
Cadmium 1.5100
Lead 41.0000
Selenium 6.2100
Mercury 0.1100
Couple more examples, speaking of the ocean.
BIO-FISH 7-7-2
Arsenic <0.5000
Cadmium 7.9000 (Through the roof)
Lead 1.2000
Selenium <5.5000
Mercury 0.0500
KELP EXTRACT POWDER 1-0-19
Arsenic 28.6000 (eh gads)
Cadmium 1.0000
Cobalt 1.0500
Lead 1.0000
Selenium 1.0000
Mercury 0.1000
Oh here's some blood and bone examples. Organic my arse..... There is no such thing as organics - it's a scientifically flawed myth. Organic soils are full of both organic and inorganic heavy metals and these are uptaken by plants. The word organics is false advertising and in every way scientific mumbo jumbo circulated by hippy capitalists cashing in on a multi billion dollar industry.
2-14-0 GRANULATED STEAMED BONE MEAL
Arsenic 0.2500
Cadmium <0.0030
Lead <0.0410
Selenium 0.5600
Mercury 37.5000 (check out the mercury ---- Jesus, talk about mad hatters disease)
GARDEN SAFE BONE MEAL 6-12-0
Arsenic <10.0000
Cadmium <0.5000
Lead 1.0000
Selenium <10.0000
Mercury <0.0500
OK - how bout some earthworm castings....
EARTHWORM CASTINGS BLEND 8-0-0
Arsenic 25.6100
Cadmium <0.1000
Lead <0.1000
Selenium <0.0500
Mercury <0.2000
WORM CASTINGS 1-.1-.3
Arsenic 9.8800
Cadmium 1.5100
Lead 41.0000
Selenium 6.2100
Mercury 0.1100
SecretGardener
Member
Lazyman
Well, you know how it is. If it tastes great, it's probably bad for you.
Well, you know how it is. If it tastes great, it's probably bad for you.
Aint that the truth. It's reasons like this that seriously undermine the organic movement though, as most of the wanna-be organic hippies don't look past the Organic label for what really goes into their soil. With guanos, EWC and compost, the heavy metals are much more abundant than they are with chem ferts. In fact, most organic nutes aren't pure enough to be used in hydroponic food production. I know I wouldn't want to smoke organic weed grown with the above amendments, ouch!
redneck shogun
Member
Does this mean when I buy an organic potato at whole foods and I eat it, I am consuming more metals than the chem grown potatoes?
Probably, can't say for certain without tests, but there's no way to remove those toxins from organics, which do get taken up by plants grown with them. Scientists have even been experimenting with different plants to use for cleaning up toxic waste and radioactive soil spots. You get the bad with the good, but I have always disagreed that there was much good accomplished by using organics anyway. Check out the organics link in my sig to join the debate!
Oops hadn't done that yet: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=172222
SecretGardener
Member
lol smoke another brother
Lazyman
RE: Bat Guano
Given the time that it takes to break down any of the guanos (i.e. 8 months) the addition of this to a container grow of 8-10 weeks is preposterous.
In the 'real world' of organic 'agriculture' (i.e. outside of talking with stoner pot growers) the addition of guanos (for the sake of this discussion - bat guano and/or seabird guano) is not of much concern. And it's not because of pricing - once you get out of the grow store paradigm you'll find that bat guano isn't all that expensive. $50.00 for 50# for a 'high p' guano is the standard and that's if you're only buying a single bag. If you're buying multiple pallets of this product the price drops down to $27.00 all day long.
High 'N' guano's are a tad more expensive - about $30.00 for 50# for a single bag. About $18.00 per bag for a pallet.
"P" fertilizers are easily offset by the high price of high 'P' guanos with products like organic fish bone meal and fish meal.
The only place where 'bat guano' is held to be some holy trinity is limited to the pot growing paradigm - it isn't supported on any level of science as it relates to growing in containers for short growing/flowering cycles.
CC
RE: Bat Guano
Given the time that it takes to break down any of the guanos (i.e. 8 months) the addition of this to a container grow of 8-10 weeks is preposterous.
In the 'real world' of organic 'agriculture' (i.e. outside of talking with stoner pot growers) the addition of guanos (for the sake of this discussion - bat guano and/or seabird guano) is not of much concern. And it's not because of pricing - once you get out of the grow store paradigm you'll find that bat guano isn't all that expensive. $50.00 for 50# for a 'high p' guano is the standard and that's if you're only buying a single bag. If you're buying multiple pallets of this product the price drops down to $27.00 all day long.
High 'N' guano's are a tad more expensive - about $30.00 for 50# for a single bag. About $18.00 per bag for a pallet.
"P" fertilizers are easily offset by the high price of high 'P' guanos with products like organic fish bone meal and fish meal.
The only place where 'bat guano' is held to be some holy trinity is limited to the pot growing paradigm - it isn't supported on any level of science as it relates to growing in containers for short growing/flowering cycles.
CC
Yes - guanos are loaded with heavy metals.
The comments about EWC and compost are completely and totally without merit. Getting information from a blog hardly qualifies as 'science' by any stretch of the imagination.
CC
BTW - you think that the heavy metals in Down-To-Earth's BioFish is extreme? Seriously?
Have you looked at the junk from FatBoy Mike at AN? Seriously?
Thanks for sharing regardless.
CC
Have you looked at the junk from FatBoy Mike at AN? Seriously?
Thanks for sharing regardless.
CC
I agree with you completely CC, I'm not an outdoor grower and probably never will be. I've had that very argument in the organics forums about short cycle indoor plants, largely falling on deaf ears. I don't think prices have really entered into the debate though.
I was just posting data from another chemistry-knowledgable member (Mullray) from another thread, but he didn't cite his source.
