[NiteTiger]

I'm stoned, and a tad tipsy, so I can't remember which mod said it (Gr3atful maybe?), but they said "Organics - The Rube Goldberg machine of indoor gardening"

For those of you who don't know, a Rube Goldberg machine takes a simple act, and makes it as complicated as possible.

As a dirty chem grower, this statement seems dead on to me. Organics is like learning Chinese - Hard to learn, harder to master, and pretty much pointless.

Don't get me wrong, I've seen terribly impressive organic grows. I've even smoked out of organic grows. Thing is though, the organics weren't, on those particular genetics, anything to write home about. The same strain in a non-organic system yielded the same, and the smoke was no different at all.

Granted, both of these grows were by what I consider experts in their field. The organic hydro grower and the non-organic grower were equally matched in skill and experience.

So, in light of that, why should a grower go organic? If the same yield and quality are produced, why take the longer road? Let's face it, if we are being honest, proper organic gardening is more intensive than non-. Where are the benefits?

For the sake of a clear discussion, let's eliminate some possible answers:

"Organics yield better" - Horse pucky. Growers who know their medium and methods will get the most out of a strain, no matter the source of nutrients. If you disagree with this, you need to read more and experience more.

"Organics taste better" - Bullshit. I've had the same strain, grown by organics and one grown non-, and each was superb, with no differences. In a taste test of 30 ppl, no one could tell the difference.

Now, despite the inflammatory title, this thread is not meant as an attack on organics. I'm well aware of organics, and their capabilities, and don't mean to diminish either.

Simply state your case, and let your voice be heard.

This could even become a sticky, depending on the quality of your responses. A good, well reasoned debate will be invaluable to new growers exploring their options. A flame fest of bullshit gets this locked.

Choose wisely, to quote Indiana Jones III

Now...

Discuss!

[Goldengreens]

What are the best non-organic hydro nutes?

[NiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Goldengreens

What are the best non-organic hydro nutes?

That's open to debate. Ask a hundred growers and you'll get 100 different answers.

More to the point of the thread, why choose any organic, even if it is "the best organic fert known to man", when chem ferts are, more often than not, cheaper and easier to manage?

[Phillthy]

organics are better for you, more natural and have less of an impact on the environment. now that the hippie stuff is out of the way...lol. seriously, organics are better for you and the environment. most fertilizers come from petroleum based products. the organic soil mix i use couldn't be any easier. 10 minutes to mix, pot plants right away and just add water. thats it. simple, painless, and grows fantastic buds.

[Lazyman]

Oh boy, this is gonna be fun. In short, I'm with you.

For those that like my wordy long versions:

I did an organic nutes vs salt nutes in my 8kw coco grow, and on the same strains, AN Sensi beat Pura Vida Organics for yield, but not by much. Taste and aroma are the same. I also spent about 5X as much on the organic nutes, so it was a lose-lose scenario.

Outdoors where larger volumes of soil, older and larger plants, nutes, water and light come into play, organic nutes tend to lessen the top feeding/fertigating needs, making watering simpler by supplying plain water. Most of this is a necessity, due to the frequent absence of power or outdoor reservoirs right where plants need them. Water hoses are just easier to string. This does not mean organics are superior for outdoor weed.

Indoors plants have tighter environmental controls, and nutrients can be controlled more carefully for short-cycle crops. We need immediate availability to the roots, as they won't have months of veg time to grow giant root balls indoors. Most organic nutrients are absorbed more slowly, and the best organic growers use elaborate bacteria and fungi microherds to digest and manage nutes. Reservoirs become living things full of all sorts of funky organic matter, and if poorly managed it will quickly grow anaerobic bacteria, algae, pythium and rot your roots. This all takes valuable time if not done by a very experienced hand, and anything that slows down growth diminishes yields. There is no time for screwing about indoors.

I feel it's pretty common knowledge that few organic growers outperform salt nutes for yields indoors. There are some that can do it, but I'd call them master growers who have been riding the organic train a long time and never found a salt regimen they liked.

I'd also venture to say that organics indoors are a waste of time, since a properly flushed salt regimen will have the same or better quality, superior yield, faster plant growth and cost less money than bottled organic nutes.

A proper outdoor hydroponic setup with hydroponic nutes were to be grown side by side against an organic soil grow, I'd still wager the hydro setup would outyield the organic side.

Organic nutes may be cheaper when buying in bulk, they may be more convenient to mix into soil for long-duration growth, and remove the need for reservoirs of nutes for where it's not feasible. But none of this makes organics grow superior weed.

[MostHigh]

Originally Posted by NiteTiger

More to the point of the thread, why choose any organic, even if it is "the best organic fert known to man", when chem ferts are, more often than not, cheaper and easier to manage?

Regarding soil...quality organics have an upfront cost. After that, its all gravy.

On the other hand, nasty synthesized petro-chemicals bring the salt. And they bring it like its going out of style.

Once salt builds up in soil...the up front cost advantage of chem-ferts goes out the window. For then you're paying for a leaching agent, more water to flush, and new soil for your next grow.

Organics....you just keep on keeping on.

[Lazyman]

Build up in soil only occurs for those that reuse it, most guys don't do this indoors. Outdoors it's hard not to, but my guess is most organic hydro guys are not using them outdoors. I reuse my indoor soil on my rose bushes and veggies, they dig it!

[NiteTiger]

God I love IC, you guys never let me down! Already some great responses, let's expound on those for a deeper understanding...

First, I should explain what I am trying to accomplish with this thread. This thread (internet speak for a particular discussion in a wider ranging forum) is based on the Socratic Method of Teaching. In short, the Socratic Method is

"While the Socratic Method can be effectively used in guiding others toward a better understanding of established subjects such as mathematics, it is very often used to stimulate positive growth in the quality of human discourse. That is, the method seeks to eliminate all notions of complete understanding of any topic so as to remove barriers that surround a higher level of knowledge. Socrates said that the only thing he knew was that he knew nothing at all.

That being said, let's address some conspicuous points that have been made already.

In short, I can't much argue with Lazy's post. His short answer says why. But his long answer begs questions worth deep consideration. Why would an indoor grower choose organics?

Lazy offers that organics offer a benefit in outdoor (read: long-term) grows in lasting efficiency. If I understand Lazy's post correctly, long-term outdoor growers may see a benefit in long term effeciency, but not necessarily in short cycle indoor grows.

A very valid consideration.

However, MostHigh, brings his own valid point. Petrochemicals, which all chem nutes use, are a no-no in today's society. However, he brings, as illustration of his point, salt buildup. As Lazy points out, though, that's not typically a factor in most indoor occasions.

An indoor producer is less likely to see a negative result with chem ferts over the course of the product (no reuse, or non-flush reuse). This is simply due to nature, in that outdoor crops receive an externally dictated photoperiod, compared to an indoor's tightly controlled photoperiod.

So are organics best suited to outdoor applications? What is the advantage in running organic hydro, which is, almost by definition, an indoor run?

E: To Lazy - Yeah, this should be a great thread, as long as we keep the flames on low

[Xare]

I like to keep things simple.

Inside I run hempy buckets with lucas formula General Hydroponics nova series.

Outside its Organics, I use my own organic premix recipe that is mixed into my native soil.

Each technique has its place.

Its up to you to apply them effectively.

[NiteTiger]

Well said Xare!

The best solution is the one that works in your situation