A real tipping point in America...is about to be reached?

[Hydrosun]

I want to provide infrastructure and service to all people in this country when we need it, yes. The way to accomplish this is through government. I live around people and I would want them all to be taken care of. It isn't even that hard and it starts with getting money out of campaigns by bringing attention to Buddy Roemer or any candidate for any office with the same campaign finance ideals.

I understand that you think government can be good and public works are beneficial. However I need 8 weeks of paid vacation a year. I need a Ferrari to drive on your nice no pot hole roads. I need free advanced education through the doctorate level. In fact I think I want to be a doctor of philosophy and it will take about five more years of education.

Because I think I need these things YOU are obligated to provide them to me and YOU are obligated to fund my lifestyle as a perpetual student, because I NEED an education and YOUR government must provide it to me.

Like you said life will be easy once you tell people how to spend their money and make sure that any NEED from the list that goes on and on is satisfied by YOUR government.

So whenever you are ready I'll start my new graduate studies. As a student I'll also need you to provide housing, medical care, and complete economic support.

Thanks in advance. Sorry for ever doubting how cool a system like this could be.

 

[abellguy]

The issue is sovereignty.

I'm posting a link to a primer video on it... they should have taught this in elementary and high schools.

Do current Amerika a favor and become aware of how badly you're being raped daily. (p.s. This video is OLD and things are much worse... as you may be able to tell.)

Stay Safe!

This was an excellent video, thanks for the link

 

[rootfingers]

No problem, I won't hold you to any of it until after your graduate studies. Now get going, gotta keep that gpa up!

I understand that you think government can be good and public works are beneficial. However I need 8 weeks of paid vacation a year. I need a Ferrari to drive on your nice no pot hole roads. I need free advanced education through the doctorate level. In fact I think I want to be a doctor of philosophy and it will take about five more years of education.

Because I think I need these things YOU are obligated to provide them to me and YOU are obligated to fund my lifestyle as a perpetual student, because I NEED an education and YOUR government must provide it to me.

Like you said life will be easy once you tell people how to spend their money and make sure that any NEED from the list that goes on and on is satisfied by YOUR government.

So whenever you are ready I'll start my new graduate studies. As a student I'll also need you to provide housing, medical care, and complete economic support.

Thanks in advance. Sorry for ever doubting how cool a system like this could be.

 

[Hydrosun]

You've got to get me my housing, healthcare, and spending money. How can I study when you haven't even given me any food to eat? I am really excited about this new anything you want from the list that goes on and on you get society. Can't believe no one thought of it before.

 

[rootfingers]

Oh, I thought you realized your absurd interpretation of what I'm saying was nonsense. Perhaps you do need some education. You can drive your ferrari there.

 

[Hydrosun]

I thought you were going to provide any services people need in your great society?

Now I have to buy my own car and pay for my own education? Sounds like you are coming around to my way of thinking.

But it sounds like my interpretation of you decide who needs what is spot on, and those things I think I need is irrelevant. Too bad I don't get to be the great wealth redistributing decider like you do.

 

[rootfingers]

Again, you thought wrong. Bet you are getting used to that.

 

[Hydrosun]

Again, you thought wrong. Bet you are getting used to that.

But I still get to pay so that you can redistribute, correct? In your universe I am not free to opt out of your Utopia am I?

This came to mind. Wish I could be a master like you instead of a slave. Do you have to be a born again collectivist to get from the list that goes on and on? "They will take and you will give,
And you must die so that they may live"

******************
"The Dogs Of War"

Dogs of war and men of hate
With no cause, we don't discriminate
Discovery is to be disowned
Our currency is flesh and bone
Hell opened up and put on sale
Gather 'round and haggle
For hard cash, we will lie and deceive
Even our masters don't know the web we weave
One world, it's a battleground
One world, and we will smash it down
One world ... One world
Invisible transfers, long distance calls,
Hollow laughter in marble halls
Steps have been taken, a silent uproar
Has unleashed the dogs of war
You can't stop what has begun
Signed, sealed, they deliver oblivion
We all have a dark side, to say the least
And dealing in death is the nature of the beast
One world, it's a battleground
One world, and we will smash it down
One world ... One world
The dogs of war won't negotiate
The dogs of war don't capitulate,
They will take and you will give,
And you must die so that they may live
You can knock at any door,
But wherever you go, you know they've been there before
Well winners can lose and things can get strained
But whatever you change, you know the dogs remain.
One world, it's a battleground
One world, and we will smash it down
One world ... One world

 

[rootfingers]

In my universe lol. Apparently in my universe we all get Italian super cars and perfect roads. Honestly, that doesn't sound half bad. You got me rollin today man, thank you.

 

[rootfingers]

Buddy Roemer

 

[Ultra Current]

A small amount of people will rise up but no one will take them seriously because big media is in control and paints the picture they want you to see. The real tipping point you will see is that middle class will be gone and there will be poor and rich. Just wait 5 years and see how bad it gets. I got big plans for that and will be in my own special place with no people on a lot of land with my own animals and grown food supply.

 

[Dorje113]

I understand that you think government can be good and public works are beneficial. However I need 8 weeks of paid vacation a year. I need a Ferrari to drive on your nice no pot hole roads. I need free advanced education through the doctorate level. In fact I think I want to be a doctor of philosophy and it will take about five more years of education.

Because I think I need these things YOU are obligated to provide them to me and YOU are obligated to fund my lifestyle as a perpetual student, because I NEED an education and YOUR government must provide it to me.

Like you said life will be easy once you tell people how to spend their money and make sure that any NEED from the list that goes on and on is satisfied by YOUR government.

So whenever you are ready I'll start my new graduate studies. As a student I'll also need you to provide housing, medical care, and complete economic support.

Thanks in advance. Sorry for ever doubting how cool a system like this could be.

Thanks for the great example of "Reductio ad absurdum"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

It seems like you will need some education in order to be able to make reasonable arguments.

IMO, it costs less to provide the BASIC necessities of life to anyone who is not capable of providing them themselves. This includes food, shelter and clothing of the most basic nature.

Of course, I'll be ready for another round of Reductio ad absurdum when you point out that millions of Americans would just take advantage of these social programs, while the results of these types of programs in other countries proves otherwise.

Basically, "individualists" seem to me to be uneducated and unable to get along in society so they think withdrawing is somehow going to help, rather than admitting their ego is incapable of the flexibility required to deal with other people. Interesting how many of these people there are on a board that deals with medicine commonly used by people with various brain chemical imbalances to self medicate. And I'm not throwing stones, I've been diagnosed with a bipolar disorder. The only difference is I'm well aware of my issues.

Now, go ahead and drive on our public roads and use all the benefits provided to you by "others" and be blissfully unaware of it all wouldn't be possible without cooperation.

The other issue with your ideas is the spiritual philosophy shared by individualists and many organized religions alike: the separation between onesself and others is an illusion. Believing in this illusion leads to dualistic thinking and the empowerment of the ego, which is the basis of all human suffering. Acting on dualistic thinking is the cause of suffering. Cooperation and understanding others' point of view (compassion) is the remedy for suffering. Your type of individualism is the antithesis the idea of unity and acting on those beliefs will cause more suffering. But IMO, you should do it a few thousand more times just to confirm the results.

 

[LetsSeeYa]

Ok i got to the end of this thread, started yesterday, lol. I tried to get independent of the system this way.

Broke neck at age 19 in 85 at the time i had a great job and have worked since i was a kid mowing lawns, shoveling snow as a kid and bringing home 350.00 a week at the time of my crash. I learned something.

I moved to bigger city to get college degree, done.

But with such a small income i needed the section 8 housing, payed 49 bucks when i walked in.

Moved girlfriend in, rent went up, because she was on the system, with kid and was given some cash, but very little.

Got a job while in school, rent went to 668. Thats fine, i make more pay more, but market value of apartment, which was new when i moved in, no one lived in my first apartment there. I could hear my fellow fat lady next door taking a shit, no kidding. Market value of these shit apartments are so high you could not cap out in less you made very mad cash, i think 1,480 a month they get for the apartment from the government. Now this is a non profit im talking about, Volunteers of America''. And this was just the one bedroom apt. So what im subsidized at the rest is paid by the government.

With some sort of ''adda boy'' time for me to be able to save to move out and let the next bastard in to find work or get through their education would help. But hell no, a person that started at the bottom now in contrast to 60 years ago is almost impossible to brake that cycle of people getting assistance from the government. It was my goal, but you take two steps forward and one back so there is no incentive for trying to improve yourself. I gotta say most of the people who get this government is all good and comfy. I know most of he people that were there are still there, why, because in their eyes its not worth busting their ass to get out of the place, most just lazy and bread into their genetics.

Well i did get out, but only with the help of Habitat for Humanity. They basically needed a crip to move in a house, which land was donated for people with disability's, i was the goat. Cool we are not going to have to pay out 668 for a shit apartment, which each month they would do a walk through to see if i was fucking clean, this because 2 bad eggs. We move into the house great for us and great for Habitat, because they got 100k for getting us in before ''the date''. After that things were good, i got my degree, a family and the house i need to die in some day. First year mortgage was perfect, i stared to build a nest egg, but no as they messed up and did not put any escrow on the first years payments, i think we paid 265.00, went to 385.00. We gotta pay it all back? Damn, but its doable we both work, yet if i work to much 1,085.00 a month, i lose my insurance. This is important as i need many medical items to even survive so cant take the raise like everyone else in the office so pull that belt tight and make a few changes, it works. Next year comes, school levy passed and mortgage goes to 405.00, OK only 20 bucks no big deal. Daughter gets older, pre fab family if you will, but raised her from 3 years old. Things like gas goes up with food and other small shit. Here comes the nest egg, which was for repairs and improvement to house, keep up. Now gone. Start to rob ol peter to pay paul, now credit is gone, all fucked up cuz peter an paul, mortgage goes to 450.00, now the shit gets deep.

Kicker, lol. Girl friend leaves, great news really. But i want my fucking house, i worked my ass off to get here. I find a friend who would room up and i would put the house in a 50/50on deed, but Habitat says no, because we have no relationship, i wasn't married to the ex, but they needed their 100k grant and pushed us in and didn't even finish a ton of shit on the house. No lawn and ran sump pump up and right back into the basement so we got flooded bad, lost a lot of things in the basement.

But they cant brake or go by the rule in which i walked into the house so i lost the roommate and now the house. Worked since i was a kid and kicked ass after a crash that left me a quadriplegic. Moved to get degree, done yet could never get up to a point where i could make more money. I made 7 an hour, they made 14 and more, never gotta a bonus. All i wanted is to pay for the house i want to kick it in.

Watch what you say about people that suck off the system, i would never say that there are people that abuse it, but just try and get off it, you need to become a lawyer or some type of position in which you make 75k a year and then you could. I could not become someone i wasn't in college, i started to become an accountant, first week i knew it wasn't for me. I took a test, sorta matched up skills with vocation, i got preast, lobbyist, social work, teacher so i went with the social work. Im good with people so i jumped on board, but i guess i should have become an accountant, but who wants to bitch for years about a job you hate. I tried hard so damn hard, but i gotta be outta my house before Jan. And i cant even save for the damn deposit, had to call a church and they are giving me 150.00 toward it. Hell my job was to do this for other people for the 8 years i was able to work. I knew my health wasn't going to last forever so i even had my work take out more for social security as i knew it would be my living money, but thought at some point i could invest money saved. I lived very modest, but ever time i got more, they took something away asap. With time and a view of the end of the tunnel that did reward you for working hard and staying within your means should reward you, no its just more to take from you.

One more thing, if i could keep my house, when i do die, i cant give this house to my daughter. The government takes it from me being on their fucked up system i could never beat! And its just not me people its a very hard nut to crack. Now my daughter is in college and shes fucking smarter then most, but what if i tried to brake a cycle it would never happen. If i could give her the house with the land its one big bill she would not be bothered with and could brake a cycle, which you see all the time is a learned behavior that teaches kids that the system is a way of life.

I knew guys where i moved into the section 8 apartments who were 10 years older getting only supplemental social security, way different. These people worked under the table or never made enough to get social security disability, because they never paid into it. I started at 15 and was a mason, spray painter, and after my crash worked in human services at an independent living center and paid extra SS tax's as a cushion. Last two years no increase so that money i paid extra would come in handy paying this fucking deposit/first months rent, because il live in a box before living in one of those apartments again. Its bullshit, worked hard for what, lost house and worked to hard and abused my body to the point of no way of working now and that two years with out a increase of living expense, because they said living expense didn't go up, are you kidding me.

Again im just saying its damn hard to get of this system and with your hard work to pay off a house goes right to the government, why not make something tangible at the end to help people understand bragging about how many food stamps is not the goal here. Hell, when i was young its was an embarrassing to talk or use food stamps. Cycles need to be broken, people need to have incentives to continue improving their lives to change this messed up country. I am not talking about hand outs as this is the very beast you try to kill, but some period of time before changes and the people like myself who want off this shit would get there, just not going to ever happen without adjustment time.

Just my own experiance............





LSY

 

[Dorje113]

Cycles need to be broken, people need to have incentives to continue improving their lives to change this messed up country. I am not talking about hand outs as this is the very beast you try to kill, but some period of time before changes and the people like myself who want off this shit would get there, just not going to ever happen without adjustment time.

Just my own experiance............

LSY

I can't even imagine what it would be like to be paralyzed. I hope things will be looking up for you man.

As far as your post above, some European countries that offer more government programs for people who are unable to support themselves for whatever reason also have much higher minimum wages. I worked in Denmark for a while and minimum wage there is about $20/hr. This provides a huge incentive to get off of government programs because you'll make enough money to support yourself even at the lowest end of the pay scale. Part of the trap here is that you can't support yourself working at Wal Mart unless you're willing to live in very poor conditions, probably worse than what a gov't program would provide. So where's the motivation to get a minimum wage job in America? For some people it seems hopeless, in Denmark unemployment does not exist for all practical purposes. It is VERY easy to get a job in either service or science/engineering there. As a result of the high minimum wage, you pay more at restaurants and hotels, as far as people's day to day lives, that was the only downside I can see. All it would take is policies based on compassion instead of greed.... sometimes IDK WTF is wrong with Amerika. The bulk of the population has been brainwashed into voting in and supporting people and policies that are not in their best interests I think...

 

[LetsSeeYa]

I can't even imagine what it would be like to be paralyzed. I hope things will be looking up for you man.

Well i didn't write this for any type of pity and did not take it that way, just tossing that out. Im 46 now and really no big deal, i get by and have done well. But what iv tried to explain is that there just is nothing for people to grasp out for so they get comfortable. Its a shame really and the people that get the supplemental disability max out around 600.00, i get 1,000.00 , but only because i paid into it and started work young. Lucky i had parents that pushed that work effort. On the other side they get used to their situation and by having more kids bring more money to them. And that cycle begins.

Some gaps in differences should be in place so people would see a better life out there. But ya make a dime and the government takes 0.30, its messed up. And now there is a lot of talk about people only getting help for a period of time. Well with these cycles that have been laid in our society, they will be homeless. More people then ever, and this is because they do not know any other type of way, very sad. Plus iv heard that they want to drug test people on the system so they fail, they are cut off. This is messed up.

As far as your post above, some European countries that offer more government programs for people who are unable to support themselves for whatever reason also have much higher minimum wages. I worked in Denmark for a while and minimum wage there is about $20/hr. This provides a huge incentive to get off of government programs because you'll make enough money to support yourself even at the lowest end of the pay scale. Part of the trap here is that you can't support yourself working at Wal Mart unless you're willing to live in very poor conditions, probably worse than what a gov't program would provide. So where's the motivation to get a minimum wage job in America? For some people it seems hopeless, in Denmark unemployment does not exist for all practical purposes. It is VERY easy to get a job in either service or science/engineering there. As a result of the high minimum wage, you pay more at restaurants and hotels, as far as people's day to day lives, that was the only downside I can see. All it would take is policies based on compassion instead of greed.... sometimes IDK WTF is wrong with Amerika. The bulk of the population has been brainwashed into voting in and supporting people and policies that are not in their best interests I think...

Greed is pure evil, but its something that will never end here. I have always said that i have 5 bucks to send to the government if everyone else would. Thing is they would just use it to give raises to themselves and spend on bullshit ideas that never pan out.

If you look at the front runners now campaigning to go up against our current president, they do not stand a chance, not to mention the shit that was on the table before he took office. Its a long haul now and i really dont have the answer, but i might say i need to move to Denmark, lol. I really wish that MJ would be legalized as we already import hemp and corner the world with it, but its a politicians nightmare. But billions would be made by tax dollars and jobs would be created. It was to be building new bridges and fix roads, big contracting jobs, but i have not seen anything.

The MJ is just one idea as we need a new commodity to boost our economy and science is way to much in spending. Hell the car which runs on electric are so much money only the rich can afford one and they drive big as expensive gas hogs.

I did read today about building a pipe line, which tapping into our oil here could help so much, but when they say reserve, it means ''saving for the rich some day''. Or it would have been tapped.

Its crazy and i fear for my daughter and her family.



LSY

 

[Grass Lands]

Want to see a real tipping point, wait until the food starts to become scarce or to expensive for folks.

 

[Hydrosun]

Thanks for the great example of "Reductio ad absurdum"

If your your philosophy or argument can be reduced to the level of the absurd or the fallacy shown through a parade of horribles; then how good or meaningful is your philosophy?

As for education level of individualists, my guess is that it is much higher than the average collectivist. If I do get my doctorate in philosophy it will be my second doctorate What are you going to do when the best and brightest realize they want nothing to do with your stupid socialist programs or mandates?




***********
LSY, Your story is an unfortunate example of how fucked up things are when the government ties to help. The more they help, the more fucked the recipient of the help becomes.

I applaud your efforts to improve your life and am sorry that the government throws up so many road blocks, disguised as help / rules / regulations / qualifications.

 

[Dorje113]

If your your philosophy or argument can be reduced to the level of the absurd or the fallacy shown through a parade of horribles; then how good or meaningful is your philosophy?

LOL, Dr. of philosophy, eh?

The issue with Reductio ad absurdum is that it can be applied to ANY argument to make any point, therefore it is not considered a sound and logical argument. If you have ever studied philosophy and debate and do not know this, go find a different school.

 

[Hydrosun]

LOL, Dr. of philosophy, eh?

The issue with Reductio ad absurdum is that it can be applied to ANY argument to make any point, therefore it is not considered a sound and logical argument. If you have ever studied philosophy and debate and do not know this, go find a different school.

You are free to do whatever you want with your life and property so long as you don't harm others. No man has the right to force another to do anything.

Can you reduce that philosophy to the absurd? Can you twist that into a need for collectivism and your right to point a gun at others steal their wealth and redistribute it as the great collective (elites like you) sees fit?

 

[SuperConductor]

Redusing his philosophy to the absurd (or even it's logical conclusion as they're both the same thing in this case) would surely lead to a Mad Max type distopia where everyone fights to the death for essential resources. Sounds like fun.