A question for breeding experts.

[Chronic Don]

Hey Hempcat and others
I've been researching on forums about bredding programs and one I was reading on about passing of traits seems to indicate that it isnt the male/female which passes on certain traits, its a dice roll. the old addage that 25% look like mom 25% look like dad and 50% will look like both maybe true.

 

[HempKat]

Hey Hempcat and others
I've been researching on forums about bredding programs and one I was reading on about passing of traits seems to indicate that it isnt the male/female which passes on certain traits, its a dice roll. the old addage that 25% look like mom 25% look like dad and 50% will look like both maybe true.

The question would be though is, just because what you're suggesting seems to be true for the Four O'clock Plant does that necessarily mean it will hold true for the marijuana plant or is the marijuana plant so different that a different set of rules apply?

 

[Baba Ku]

You know, hempkat...there is LOTS of material out that you could research much of this (like many of us have taken the time to do) and you wouldn't have to be asking novice questions over and over again.
It seems you want the condensed and easy version answer to very complex issues.
And with complex issues, one needs to have a bit of exposure to the topic to be able to make sense of even the most simply worded answers.
I've seen where you were given an answer, and it was obvious that other posters followed it and understood what you were being told, yet you come back again with something like that wasn't what you asked. Well, perhaps if you would expose yourself to the information a bit more, you would be more likely to catch at least a little of what you have been provided with.
You would also be able to better discern the wheat from the chaff.

 

[HempKat]

You know, hempkat...there is LOTS of material out that you could research much of this (like many of us have taken the time to do) and you wouldn't have to be asking novice questions over and over again.
It seems you want the condensed and easy version answer to very complex issues.
And with complex issues, one needs to have a bit of exposure to the topic to be able to make sense of even the most simply worded answers.
I've seen where you were given an answer, and it was obvious that other posters followed it and understood what you were being told, yet you come back again with something like that wasn't what you asked. Well, perhaps if you would expose yourself to the information a bit more, you would be more likely to catch at least a little of what you have been provided with.
You would also be able to better discern the wheat from the chaff.

You make alot of assumptions, too bad most if not all of them are wrong. Show me where anyone other then Tom Hill (who I acknowledged) has answered the question of what influences a breeder to pick one strain over the other, to be the female in the cross and which to be the male? I don't need to know about growing out as many as possible in the F2 stage because that's not the stage I'm talking about. I'm talking about you have the strains you want to use and you've already picked the best candidates for the traits you want, one of each sex for each strain. Which then do you pick to be the male and which the female? Or does it matter.

The only other person to come close to answering with anything that doesn't come off as a guess is ChronicDon however what he showed was for a different species of plant and therefore might not apply to marijuana.

You know, you sit there in condescending judgement and then act totally clueless why people get upset with you. Now stop trolling me and my threads. You've yet to establish yourself as an expert on anything other then how to be a rude condescending asshole.

 

[Baba Ku]

I'm not sitting in condescending judgment at all. And you know, it's usually folks that have no clues that get upset.
See, here's the thing....what I provided you in this thread was very relevant to the topic.
You simply don't understand that in the selection of the F1...you need to look at it in a mathematical sense. I know you don't buy or understand that.

The reason you don't get a definitive answer is because there has never been anything other than the gut feeling of a breeder or two that has ever point to a male contributing one or more attributes any more than the female would.

But even if there were some validity to it...you simply need to be thinking about breeding the two plants you have with as many females and as many males as you possibly can to increase the Ne numbers. THEN once you have seeds, you can pop them and start the search for what you can expect to see from a cross such as what you have chosen.
See, the F1 won't display the cross in true fashion, and the seeds are all heterogeneous.
Not until the F2 will you see plants that will breed out more stable, and only then will they show what the true looks of the cross are. And if you rob yourself of Ne numbers in the F1, you will hurt your chances of seeing what you want in the F2...especially if the traits you seek are latent.

Now, I will address your attitude and name calling in private.

 

[HempKat]

I'm not sitting in condescending judgment at all. And you know, it's usually folks that have no clues that get upset.
See, here's the thing....what I provided you in this thread was very relevant to the topic.
You simply don't understand that in the selection of the F1...you need to look at it in a mathematical sense. I know you don't buy or understand that.

The reason you don't get a definitive answer is because there has never been anything other than the gut feeling of a breeder or two that has ever point to a male contributing one or more attributes any more than the female would.

But even if there were some validity to it...you simply need to be thinking about breeding the two plants you have with as many females and as many males as you possibly can to increase the Ne numbers. THEN once you have seeds, you can pop them and start the search for what you can expect to see from a cross such as what you have chosen.
See, the F1 won't display the cross in true fashion, and the seeds are all heterogeneous.
Not until the F2 will you see plants that will breed out more stable, and only then will they show what the true looks of the cross are. And if you rob yourself of Ne numbers in the F1, you will hurt your chances of seeing what you want in the F2...especially if the traits you seek are latent.

Now, I will address your attitude and name calling in private.

An what you don't understand and have failed to understand from the beginning is I'm not asking how to choose the F1. I've stated very clearly several times now in terms even a non grower should understand that I'm asking about once you've already choosen your strains and picked your best male and female of each strain so you can go either way, what if any factors make you decide which will be the male and which the female in the cross you make?

Now in pm's you've suggested that nobody has answered me because there is no studies or research of any kind out there that suggests which one is which matters. Fine, if that's true then I wished that would have been stated more clearly so that we could have avoided all this unnecessary conversation that was only relevent after the fact, to the question I was asking. I'm open to the possibility that it doesn't matter, I didn't ask with any pre concieved notions. I asked because I don't know but the people I was hoping would answer do. For me all that other stuff doesn't matter. I'll probably never get beyond the F1 stage of any cross I make and if something turns up that I want to keep going I'll just clone it. That's why I made the statement that I'm not a breeder nor am I looking to be. If indeed it doesn't matter which strain in a cross is the male and which the female then I'll never worry about it, I'll proceed confident that the F!'s will show the same things regardless of what strain the seeds came from and which strain the pollen came from.

 

[ClearBarbedFunk]

WTF man??

All this shit just to do a outcross or incross??

Ya grow some seed ya find some plants ya like and ya do the deed. Ya have no fuckin idea what will take place until ya grow the shit ya made. Plain and simple

Which male or female from either line depends on the breeders ideal, what they want from each plant.

Plant combination rules, and there is no way to know in advance what will come.

So for you, select the plants male and female that meet what you want and cross um,


Or as I've been told in the past....follow the frost

CBF

I have outcrossed the same cut to many different males, some do very well the plants combined well, others were poor

 

[Baba Ku]

Hempkat, you may not really think the numbers has anything to do with the questions you asked, but I feel that the numbers has everything to do with what you asked..and is the main reason I even entered into the fray.

I will try one more time....

Let's assume you want to cross one line to another.
Now let's assume that neither line is an IBL and are both F1's of something.
We must know right away that the plants that we are looking at for parents are not true breeding for the traits they display individually. Not only will they not breed true, they will breed into a mixture of the two plants that you chose. This mixture can be anticipated by using math, BTW. And if you grow out a large enough population you can see the results matching the punnet square that was used to anticipate the pheonetic expressions....but I digress...

Now, one thing we must also know...and it's a biggie...if we chose a P1 plant because it shows a trait we like, that particular parent plant may or may not pass on what it displayed. Funny how that works, but at this stage of the game there is no way to know if that good looking gal is the one that will pass on her good looks or not. It may well be her plain-jane sister that passes on the trait you seek, and the one that displayed it only passes it on in latency.
Because of this phenomenon it makes it imperative that if you want to ensure the passing on of the trait(s) you want, you need to increase the numbers, to increase the chances of what you want to be passed on in dominance is passed on.

If you could be certain that the plant would pass on what it displayed for sure, then the numbers would not be needed, simply pick a winner for diner. But it doesn't shake out that way, so the increasing of the Ne numbers going into the project is the only sure way to get what you want passed on.
Like I said, even though the parent showed all you want in a plant, it may well NOT pass it on like you think or want it to, so you need to pick her sisters as well in hopes that if one doesn't pass it on, the other will.
A 1:1 breeding may or may not pass on what you want, and would be a very serious crap shoot. 1 female and two males increases the effective number to 2, whereas the initial number was 1.
(1x1=1 1x2=2)
Just by adding an additional male, you doubled the effective number.

NOW...
Let us assume that there is some validity to the issue that a male can pass on certain traits more prevalent than the female of the same line can or will. If this is indeed the case, then the numbers can be effected in another way, just as traits are effected. In fact, you should probably look at the sex of the plant as another "trait"...if we think that there is something to the male/female prevalence theory.
OK, lets assume that we finally do buy that the numbers do indeed come into play. Let's look at the numbers when considering the theory....
If I chose 4 females and 1 male, I have an effective number of 4 no matter how you shake it out.
Thing is...we have this theory about the males passing on certain traits and the females passing on others. So, we need to include this theory into our numbers game.
Since we subscribe to the theory, we need to look at keeping 2 females and 2 males in an attempt to get where we are going. The effective number remains the same (1x4=4 2x2=4) but we have boosted the male side so we don't rob our F1's of male genes.
It is the very same thought process of increasing the chances of passing on wanted genes BY USING THE NUMBERS.

But then, I may just be some asshole blowing off bullshit just to see my letters on the screen and to be condescending.

 

[ClearBarbedFunk]

Babaaaa....lol

I don't think hempcat cares past the F1, or the initial cross. I think what he is asking is if breeders have some technique for selecting the initial P1s.

He's interested in why a breeder chooses certain plants for the male and female to even start a cross

CBF

 

[Baba Ku]

I know what he is asking.

My best advise for someone wanting to makes seeds fast that would represent closely what they were seeing in a selected female(s), would be to bone up on the reversal procedure.
If they would happen to also have a male(s) that they saw something they liked, they could always include them into the mix once the female was more homozygous.
Surely we don't need a question thread to tell us the limitations that exist to what a male can show us and the attributes that would make a future female desirable?
By reversing one to pollinate another, we can truly assess what each of the parent plants have to offer, and have a much better insight into what the next generation progeny will hold.

If there are to be seeds made only one time in the growers career...then feminized is the only obvious choice.
But then some would poo-poo that as nothing but a worthless gimmick.


You know...if there were attributes that were brought to the table by the male more than the female can or will, then one would think a depression would be witnessed in plants grown from feminized seed, compared to plants grown from the same line standard bred.
fft

 

[HempKat]

But then, I may just be some asshole blowing off bullshit just to see my letters on the screen and to be condescending.

And you were doing so good until you had to ruin your whole post and contribution with this unnecessary sarcasm.

Look I'll try this again, what you're spending so much time on describing is how to develope good picks for the plants that will eventually be the parents. I understand all that but I'm not needing to understand that. Which is why I keep trying to make the scenario where the parent plants have already been picked.

I'm not seeking how to go thru the whole process but rather just want info on the one particular step where the two parents that were pre-selected are actually crossed and the seeds made. That's it. Just that one phase, that's all I wanted to know about. I know that the more numbers of plants in the pool you want to pick from increase the odds of finding what you want but chances are I'll never get that far. I'll simply grow out whatever cross I made and if I like it I'll work from clones from that point on and if I don't I'll just throw the rest of the seeds away.

I came to wonder about the question I asked because I grew out a test strain of GodBud Gypsy had given me a few years back. Only three out of 10 germinated and grew into plants and all three were male. I had really wanted to try some GodBud because the description of it sounded very appealing but the closest I could come now was to cross it with whatever other strains I had going. Having not tried GodBud before I began to wonder how I would tell what got passed on from the GodBud? This then led to me wondering what if anything makes a breeder pick one strain in a cross, over the other, to be the female and what makes him pick which one is male?

Now you say that it doesn't matter so much because there's nothing out there, no studies, to suggest it matters. To me though this conflicts with what Tom Hill said in one of his replies where he seemed to describe a scenario where it would be in the best interest of the project to make a particular strain the male. So that says to me that it does matter which one is male and which one is female. Which if it does matter at least in some scenarios, then that's what I'm trying to find out.

 

[HempKat]

Babaaaa....lol

I don't think hempcat cares past the F1, or the initial cross. I think what he is asking is if breeders have some technique for selecting the initial P1s.

He's interested in why a breeder chooses certain plants for the male and female to even start a cross

CBF

Bingo!

 

[HempKat]

I know what he is asking.

My best advise for someone wanting to makes seeds fast that would represent closely what they were seeing in a selected female(s), would be to bone up on the reversal procedure.
If they would happen to also have a male(s) that they saw something they liked, they could always include them into the mix once the female was more homozygous.
Surely we don't need a question thread to tell us the limitations that exist to what a male can show us and the attributes that would make a future female desirable?
By reversing one to pollinate another, we can truly assess what each of the parent plants have to offer, and have a much better insight into what the next generation progeny will hold.

If there are to be seeds made only one time in the growers career...then feminized is the only obvious choice.
But then some would poo-poo that as nothing but a worthless gimmick.


You know...if there were attributes that were brought to the table by the male more than the female can or will, then one would think a depression would be witnessed in plants grown from feminized seed, compared to plants grown from the same line standard bred.
fft

See there you go, making assumptions. I'm not looking to make seeds fast. I'm merely wanting to know what if anything influences the breeder to pick one strain over the other, to be the female in a cross. You keep trying to imagine and or change the scenario around to make it require your answer of growing out more numbers but that still doesn't answer the question I'm actually asking. It only answers the question you think I'm asking. Since however you obviously have no psychic ability to read minds, the answer to the question you think I'm asking is irrelevent to the question I actually am asking.

Oh and don't think you little dig is lost on me. To bad even after all this time you fail to understand what I was saying about feminized seed. I never said they were a worthless gimmick. What I did say was that in my opinion they are a gimmick and a shortcut and as such not worth the extra money. Now keep in mind also this was an answer to someone else who literally asked what my opinion was on feminized seed. Perhaps had you not come in making assumptions about what was being said and then casting judgement on everyone in the thread based on your wrong assumptions, but rather asked why I felt they were a gimmick and a shortcut I would have explained to you that the people that come to my help thread are for the most part new to growing and have little to know experience. Sure feminized seed will get a newb grower a nice batch of females, assuming he doesn't totally suck at growing, but it does nothing to teach him how to get mostly females thru environment control nor does it teach him anything about sexing plants and what options there are when you do get males. It also does little to teach him the importance of planning and preparation in a grow. Since new growers are who I'm usually dealing with I'm more inclined to keep them working with regular seeds and just doing a basic grow. Once he's got that under his belt, then he can look into shortening his prep time and not having to sex plants by using feminized seeds.

Feminized seeds have their worth and place but not for everybody. Seeing as how you refuse to accept this I can only conclude you have some personal vested interest in promoting feminized seed to the point of attacking people who have opinions differing from yours.

 

[ganjasuiteseat]

to the op .i always choice which line of the cross is going to be the male by picking which1 i want to show more traits(males dna is slighty stronger(.1%???idk)or i do what i call a cris cross.
criscross example
indica / sativa
indica male x sativa female
then with the same parent stock i do
indica female x sative males.then grow out both line together i.e. mix all of the beans together(besides the flyer) and yall know the rest!lol ima make my own way kinda guy.peace:tip hat:

 

[Chronic Don]

you know hempcat you've been given the answer over and over but you keep asking it sometimes in different words but always the same question. so stop asking. your answer is this;
it is unknown how to tell what the male and female will contribute. its a crap shoot you will get many different variations from the cross each type of difference will be represented if enough seeds are grown out.
you cannot say I want the xx trait from this male or the xsx trait from the female. it does not work like that.

 

[303hydro]

sup hempkat - F*$k da haters - na um saying?


thought you might like this paragraph taken from a DJ short article called " the art of selection and breeding fine cannabis ".....

I have never met a bad ass grower/ p chucker who didn't have the utmost respect for DJ Short. He has written tons and tons on breeding , its 3 days worth of google time.


"
I usually begin with a Sativa female and an Indica male. It has been my observation that the females primarily contribute the type of flavor and aroma and the males contribute the amount of flavor and odor. The "Sativa/Indica" aspects of this formula are mainly apparent in the P1 or very early filial crosses (to about f3). Beyond the f3 generation the apparent "Sativa/Indica" ratio in a given individual is less important than the odor/flavor and trichome development aspects it exhibits. Therefore, one of the main aspects to consider when selecting a male is the depth of its aroma and flavor. (If you are seeking to develop a low-odor indoor strain you might wish to begin with a low-odor Sativa male and an Indica female.) "

.....and btw tom hill is the man. that deep chunk is really really something special......

 

[Baba Ku]

And you were doing so good until you had to ruin your whole post and contribution with this unnecessary sarcasm.

Look I'll try this again,

No, you ruined it when you first called me a condescending asshole.
And don't try again...not with me anyway.

You gave us a nice short answer here about feminized seeds, yet that is not the way you handled it in your little help thread. And that little tussle about fem seeds is what has your drawers in a wad.
Don't play off as if I was attacking anyone that didn't attack me.
You went on the attack when I said they were far more than gimmicks. It seemed like you could poopoo any scenario anyone could come up with to show their worth.
I know you tried to post up your proof of me being the only one on the attack, but what you provided was simply you misinterpreting things. I simply put it off to a lack of comprehension on your part.
(kinda like here)
Besides, I know what the score is...you don't even want to see the scoreboard.

303hydro...when was the last time you got high from flavor and aroma?
You know, DJ is a fine guy and a respected breeder, but he has some whacky ideas. I mean, the guy keeps his lighting schedule a trade secret.
And I don't really think there is much to back up his theory about what passes on what.
It comes from a respected person in the industry, so it has to be given consideration, but it has hardly been shown a valid breeding scheme.
Besides...take a good look at what he wrote

It has been my observation that the females primarily contribute the type of flavor and aroma and the males contribute the amount of flavor and odor.

The females decide what the smell is, and the males decide how much of that smell there is? I'm sorry, but DJ must have been tripping on that one.
na whum sayin yo

 

[303hydro]

303hydro...when was the last time you got high from flavor and aroma?
You know, DJ is a fine guy and a respected breeder, but he has some whacky ideas. I mean, the guy keeps his lighting schedule a trade secret.
And I don't really think there is much to back up his theory about what passes on what.
It comes from a respected person in the industry, so it has to be given consideration, but it has hardly been shown a valid breeding scheme.
Besides...take a good look at what he wrote

The females decide what the smell is, and the males decide how much of that smell there is? I'm sorry, but DJ must have been tripping on that one.
na whum sayin yo

I'll be real honest here. I didn't even take the time to read this whole thread and don't really care what kind of poop storm is taking place here. I was very simply trying to provide a reference to a DIRECT ANSWER to his SIMPLE QUESTION. I don't understand why you felt the need to try to debunk a theory based on a tiny little paragraph, just because it is not your belief.

303hydro...when was the last time you got high from flavor and aroma?

What in the world is your point about not getting high from aroma or flavor???

You have never wanted a good taste or flavor to be bred from a parent to a hybrid???? He is just saying he thinks mommys are more likely to pass these traits in the F1 stock. Everybody loves tasty herb and it outweighs potency for some, I really don't understand your point.

You know, DJ is a fine guy and a respected breeder, but he has some whacky ideas. I mean, the guy keeps his lighting schedule a trade secret.
Yes he has crazy ideas. He believes a grower's aura and energy is felt in the cannabis which they grow, and he also has suggested using LSD and taking a sinle toke while peaking to truly test and capture the essence of each particular strain.

And I don't really think there is much to back up his theory about what passes on what.
It comes from a respected person in the industry, so it has to be given consideration, but it has hardly been shown a valid breeding scheme.
Besides...take a good look at what he wrote

The females decide what the smell is, and the males decide how much of that smell there is? I'm sorry, but DJ must have been tripping on that one.
na whum sayin yo

Ok DJ has wrote hundreds of articles on cannabis, breeding, and origins, and has been doing it for almost 40 YEARS. The guy has probably crossed or attempted to cross every landrace strain that anyone has ever seen, and probably tried both ways and backwards. I think his 30+ strains he has released might count as valid proof no? What do you think he based his theory on? 40 years of experience or a gut feeling???? Here's the rest of the blurb, but as I said its 3 days of google time to read all his articles and not a single post on icmag.
"

Afghani male The f1 cross

The f1 cross is the first cross between two distinctly different P1 parents. The "f" stands for filial (child). I cannot overstress the importance of the two P1 parents being as genetically different as is possible. It is this initial genetic diversity that leads to the most possibilities in succeeding lines.

If the P1's are sufficiently diverse, then the f1 will be a true hybrid, expressing a near total uniformity and great vigor. It is in the crosses beyond the initial f1 (especially the f1xf1=f2 cross) that specific traits are sought. There will be a tremendous amount of variance in the f2 crosses of f1's obtained from a female pure sativa and a male pure indica.

The Blueberry (among others) was discovered and stabilized from an f1 cross between the P1 parents of a female Juicy Fruit Thai or a female Purple Thai and a male Afghani Indica. Thus there were two possible routes to essentially the same finished product. Blue Velvet and Flo seem more accessible via the Purple Thai route, while Blue Moonshine seems more accessible through the Juicy Fruit lineage. That is, there is a higher probability of occurence of the specific traits which I'm seeking, and so they're easier to "find".

Oddly enough, the opposite cross (female Afghani indica crossed with pollen from male Thai sativa) was not nearly as interesting. The f1's from this cross were more leafy and less desirable. They were also more hermaphroditic and subsequent breeding revealed them to be less desirable. It has been my observation that in a successful cross, the (usually female) sativa contributes the type of aroma and flavour, while the (usually male) indica contributes the amount of aroma and flavour to the prodigy. So far this observation has proven fruitful."


BabaKu, I respect your thoughts as you obviously have put much time and thought into breeding and that is awesome. If you don't agree with DJ Short on this particular subject that is great but nothing your gonna say or do is gonna take that theory away so whats the point in locked arguing? Every breeder and grower has many disagreements in the method and that's what makes it the best hobby in the world.

 

[Baba Ku]

I have not argued that the theory isn't valid, just that it is a theory.
To my knowledge, there is nothing to back it up scientifically.
And like I suggested as some food for thought...perhaps this theory could be checked a bit using feminized vs standard siblings?
IMO it is a bit hard to buy off on the theory, because of the fact that sex only involves one half of a single chromosome pair. Also there are lots of enzyme interactions going on that can vary in how they react from plant to plant, pheno to pheno..a bit hard to pinpoint singular traits to a specific sex. Not to mention the anecdotal data would surely have compiled a bit by now if it were so....
But again, that is not what I have been arguing. I have been allowing for the assumption to be true...because if it were not true, then it wouldn't matter.
I was actually trying to help hempkat understand the whole thing so he could perhaps delve into what many of us have. And again, if the theory is true, then I think that my points on the distribution of Ne numbers is valid, and need to consider sex into the effective numbers.

 

[HempKat]

you know hempcat you've been given the answer over and over but you keep asking it sometimes in different words but always the same question. so stop asking. your answer is this;
it is unknown how to tell what the male and female will contribute. its a crap shoot you will get many different variations from the cross each type of difference will be represented if enough seeds are grown out.
you cannot say I want the xx trait from this male or the xsx trait from the female. it does not work like that.

I'm not asking what the male and female will contribute though which is why I keep asking the question. I phrase it differently because nobody is coming forth and giving a clear cut answer. You post something about the Four O'clock flower which suggests sex doesn't matter. I ask if that applies to marijuana though and guess what? No answer. I've asked at least a couple of other times if it doesn't matter which side of the cross is male and which side is female or does it not matter, and no straight forward answer.

Finally Baba Ku gave up that it doesn't matter but frankly his juvenile attitude, his threatening tone in pm's and his condescending attitude have me doubting anything he has to say is worth listening to.

Now I'll try with you one more time because clearly "you cannot say I want the xx trait from this male or the xsx trait from the female. it does not work like that" demonstrates you are not understanding the question. I'm not asking what traits end up in a cross from a female and what traits ended up there from the male. I'm asking what factors, if any influnces the breeder to pick one strain as the male and one as the female in a cross. In other words, to use Tom Hill's example. If a breeder is making a cross from a Mexican Sativa and a Afghani Kush what influences the breeder to decide to make the Mexican Sativa the female and make the Afghani Kush the Male?

Do you see how that is completely different from asking what traits the female brings to the cross and which traits the male brings?