A question for breeding experts.

[3dDream]

It is just a way for me to classify a group since I am in a small space. I can pick a blueberry dom as a seedling by the shape of the true leaf. I recently popped some blueberry and haze crossed plants and was able to select haze and bb dom plants by the leaf shape, stem and leaf color, and vigor. The leaf shape is the most telling. I do not expect this method to be 100% accurate, but it puts me on the road to where I want to go. If you have enough seeds it is one way to get some focus early on.

from the same batch of seeds. Look different? The one on the right ended up a monster haze dom.



These two are (johnny blaze x cplus) x f13 and (mod bx x f13) f2. The broad spade tip and the rounded edge say bb to me. The colored stem and purple undersides screem it. Both of these plants showed short bb plants in flower.


blueberry makes it easy to spot it's touch, but color can't be the main factor

 

[HempKat]

Well what I was trying to get at in the question I asked is how one would go about selecting parents to get the results they want from the offspring. So like if I wanted it to have a certain flavor or certain smell or certain growth characteristic which plants should I pick and for which qualities? I figured there has to be some guidelines for it because I see breeders releasing multiple strains year after year and if you got to grow out thousands to get the right plants then the only way they could get more then a strain or two every few years would be if they knew specifically which plants to pick for which traits. So either that information is out there or there are lots of breeders lying about how careful they are and how much goes into each strain they make.

 

[Baba Ku]

My point earlier is that you simply cannot dependably do what you want to do from an F1 selection. They may or may not put out progeny that looks and acts as they do. It is only after then next generation, the F2 and further that you can start to get the results you see in your selection. It is just a fact that when you select a heterozygous plant for a parent it simply will not throw plants that look and act just as it does. A plant needs to have homozygous traits to see them passed on as you see them.
This is why people say use as many acceptable plants as possible for the F1 generation. It's only numbers that can give you the best shot of starting your selection AFTER the F2 seeds are growing.
Pick the best mom(s) and pop(s) you have and mate them...then start doing what you want to do from the progeny.

Breeders consistently provide good stock because they provide stock that carries homozygous traits, and they understand what it takes to get to homogeneous.

 

[HempKat]

My point earlier is that you simply cannot dependably do what you want to do from an F1 selection. They may or may not put out progeny that looks and acts as they do. It is only after then next generation, the F2 and further that you can start to get the results you see in your selection. It is just a fact that when you select a heterozygous plant for a parent it simply will not throw plants that look and act just as it does. A plant needs to have homozygous traits to see them passed on as you see them.
This is why people say use as many acceptable plants as possible for the F1 generation. It's only numbers that can give you the best shot of starting your selection AFTER the F2 seeds are growing.
Pick the best mom(s) and pop(s) you have and mate them...then start doing what you want to do from the progeny.

Breeders consistently provide good stock because they provide stock that carries homozygous traits, and they understand what it takes to get to homogeneous.

Yes but that really has nothing to do with my question. Regardless of the number of plants or what generation it is how and what do you pick to pass on which traits. Let's say we're talking about an F-2 round that came as the result of selecting two plants from 1000 in the F-1 stage. Which plants do you look to to pass on which traits? The generation shouldn't really matter, the number of plants to choose from shouldn't matter because no matter how many generations or how many plants the things we look for and how we pick them should be the same.

 

[Baba Ku]

I always love the phrase..."shoulda, coulda, woulda...."

Yeah, it would make sense the selections would be the same no matter the generation, but in reality that just isn't the case.
Rather than me threepeating my take on this...I will provide you with some references that may help for you to grasp this concept. This is an excerpt from a members link that attempts to lay out some of these simple genetic concepts..that are based on Mendelian theory.

MENDEL's second law is the principle of segregation. It states that the individuals of the F2 generation are not uniform, but that the traits segregate. Depending on a dominant-recessive crossing or an intermediate crossing are the resulting ratios 3:1 or 1:2:1. According to this principle hereditary traits are determined by discrete factors (now called genes) that occur in pairs, one of each pair being inherited from each parent. This concept of independent traits explains how a trait can persist from generation to generation without blending with other traits. It explains, too, how the trait can seemingly disappear and then reappear in a later generation. The principle of segregation was consequently of the utmost importance for understanding both genetics and evolution.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=26677

MENDEL assumed that both pollen and eggs bear hereditary factors, that he thought to be something different than the characteristics themselves. He made thus a further important insight, because not the characteristics themselves are inherited, but their lay-out (now called alleles).

Since it is dependent on chance, which pollen and eggs combine, the pollination will take place according to the rules of probability as shown in the following scheme:

This results in the offspring:
AA Aa aA aa

This regularity is expressed by MENDEL's second law, the principle of segregation. The individuals of the F2 generation are not uniform, instead different types are visible. The characteristics of the parental generation do always occur at a certain ratio. Depending on a dominant-recessive or an intermediate crossing, they segregate in the ratio 3:1 or 1:2:1.

The last graphic should have a huge impact on your thought process on this issue. Place your plants in the slots.
In the examples, if you were to choose the white plant because you like white plants and want seeds that will produce more white plants, you will NOT get what you thought you would get in the F1. All you get is a population that is pink....and a combination of lighter and darker pinks. No white.
The plants are heterozygous at the F1 stage. So, you need to breed two or more of the F1's together so you can start to see what genes are dominant and what are recessive. That can only be done when the genes are more homozygous, such as selections from the F2 generation and further.
The reason the numbers are so important in the F1 selection is due to the fact that you may leave desired genes behind...genetic expressions that you don't see yet. And may not see in abundance if you short your numbers in the F1.

 

[HempKat]

I always love the phrase..."shoulda, coulda, woulda...."

Yeah, it would make sense the selections would be the same no matter the generation, but in reality that just isn't the case.
Rather than me threepeating my take on this...I will provide you with some references that may help for you to grasp this concept. This is an excerpt from a members link that attempts to lay out some of these simple genetic concepts..that are based on Mendelian theory.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=26677



The last graphic should have a huge impact on your thought process on this issue. Place your plants in the slots.
In the examples, if you were to choose the white plant because you like white plants and want seeds that will produce more white plants, you will NOT get what you thought you would get in the F1. All you get is a population that is pink....and a combination of lighter and darker pinks. No white.
The plants are heterozygous at the F1 stage. So, you need to breed two or more of the F1's together so you can start to see what genes are dominant and what are recessive. That can only be done when the genes are more homozygous, such as selections from the F2 generation and further.
The reason the numbers are so important in the F1 selection is due to the fact that you may leave desired genes behind...genetic expressions that you don't see yet. And may not see in abundance if you short your numbers in the F1.

Damn, you knew this the whole time...

According to this principle hereditary traits are determined by discrete factors (now called genes) that occur in pairs, one of each pair being inherited from each parent.

and couldn't just say this? This answers my question and yet how much time was wasted talking about growing out large number of plants? It doesn't matter how many plants you grow out apparently other then to increase the pool of plants to choose from. 10 or 1000 plants the traits you want will have one of each pair in the parents. So both plants contribute to all characteristics. It doesn't matter if it's the female that has the smell you want, or the male is. Another way to look at it might be to say for all traits you want to pass on you'll want to see them in both parents. All I had been asking all along is which plant should I look to to control which quality. The answer is both and hasn't a damn thing to do with how many plants you grow out.

 

[Tom Hill]

VG explained well that the supposition was nonsense.

 

[HempKat]

VG explained well that the supposition was nonsense.

And so he did but I guess it didn't register with me the way he explained it then. However I wasn't speaking to VG when I said that.

Oh and thanks for disrespectfully calling my original question nonsense. Sorry dude but people are not born with all of the world's knowledge and so until they ask, their questions might seem nonsensical because they've yet to obtain the knowledge that tells them a question might be nonsense. I guess because you've made a name for yourself you think you're better then others and therefore it's your right to be disrespectful?

 

[Baba Ku]

lol...I kinda see things a bit differently here. I see YOU being quite disrespectful of others, Hempkat.

 

[Chronic Don]

you think you're better then others and therefore it's your right to be disrespectful?

do we have a troll here?
someone who comes and disrespects people picks arguments by slammin others etc etc
nowadays you see lots of poor comments that should only be defined as coming out of a troll

 

[JWP]

do we have a troll here?
someone who comes and disrespects people picks arguments by slammin others etc etc
nowadays you see lots of poor comments that should only be defined as coming out of a troll

This comment could be defined as troll behaviour. I dont see a single word in that post relating to the topic.

Let em go at it bro, they have both been here long enough. Though i'm sure they are both mature enough to let it go..

I'm pretty sure this is just a misunderstanding

 

[Chronic Don]

My comments were not pointed towardsa anyone in particular, just towards those who wreck threads with their tongues.
I am sorry for posting something that has no connection to the thread. I was trying to read a decent thread and it seems crap showed up. I see it in so many threads, so much disrepect it is becoming harder to follow anything without seeing the "troll" effect. Maybe its becoming time to not bother reading threads. maybe

 

[Tom Hill]

HempKat,

My comment was in response to yours immediately prior, which I found to be incredibly disrespectful. It's nigh impossible to foresee which way an answer might register with the questioner, some patience and understanding in that regard is warranted imo. While you see long diatribes of off topic subject, I see these folks heading off the next incorrect suppositions at the pass, but this doesn't seem to be registering with you either. VG pointed out that many traits are simply not to be seen in both parents, and BK is pointing out that this often doesn't matter, because to story goes a lot deeper than that. Enter numbers and a whole lot of other, which these types of conversations are never complete without imo.

My understanding of genetics is not what moved me to post the disrespectful comment that I did. It was my understanding of never really knowing which way an answer may resonate with others that moved me to do so. I guess what I'm saying is that you might want to consider granting a little leeway to those you are asking for help from, or you might find that they are less willing to help you otherwise. Respectfully -Tom

 

[HempKat]

HempKat,

My comment was in response to yours immediately prior, which I found to be incredibly disrespectful. It's nigh impossible to foresee which way an answer might register with the questioner, some patience and understanding in that regard is warranted imo. While you see long diatribes of off topic subject, I see these folks heading off the next incorrect suppositions at the pass, but this doesn't seem to be registering with you either. LG pointed out that many traits are simply not to be seen in both parents, and BK is pointing out that this often doesn't matter, because to story goes a lot deeper than that. Enter numbers and a whole lot of other, which these types of conversations are never complete without imo.

My understanding of genetics is not what moved me to post the disrespectful comment that I did. It was my understanding of never really knowing which way an answer may resonate with others that moved me to do so. I guess what I'm saying is that you might want to consider granting a little leeway to those you are asking for help from, or you might find that they are less willing to help you otherwise. Respectfully -Tom

Well what you don't know Tom and what many people don't know when they look at a single post and judge things is that often there is history between a poster and the person replying to them. The message you found in your opinion was disrespectful was sent to Baba Ku. The reason I'm disrespectful to Baba Ku is because a few months back, in the help thread I've been running since I got here, someone asked me my personal opinion of feminized seed. I gave my answer which is neither right nor wrong as it is just my personal opinion. Well old Baba Ku here felt it necessary to attack me and tell me that I should be spreading my opinion even though that was specifically what I was asked for. To me that was very disrespectful on his part. Ever since then I have noticed a rather rude and condescending tone to his posts and so I give the disrespect in turn.

I find you to be the same way. It's not your place to go around judging how rude or not one person's reply is to another person. Yes this is a public forum and as such everyone has the ability to reply to any posted message, however that does not mean it's your right or place to inject your opinion on something between two other people unless it is asked for.

 

[HempKat]

lol...I kinda see things a bit differently here. I see YOU being quite disrespectful of others, Hempkat.

Of course you do. It would be alot harder to justify your behavior if you didn't. Yeah just like the time I talked about with Tom where I was asked for my opinion and gave it. You felt perfectly justified to come into a conversation you had not been involved in and attack me simply because I don't think as highly of feminized seed as you. Yet you find me to be disrespectful

 

[Tom Hill]

Let me see, it's yours to tell folks where their place is or isn't, and yours to spread opinion with a firm base in ignorance, unchecked no less? Uhmm, okay, can I sign up for that or is this solely reserved for you?

It's an open forum man and stepping up is your right but if folk feel you're off mark the mustard will fly and that's just the way of it. It seems there is a lot of misplaced aggression flying around in here. I hope you're not too set in your ways to consider that a possibility. Your critiquing of folks replies to questions you clearly wanted answers to borders on the hilarious. BK was very likely right on target to straighten you out in that other thread, just as he is right on target to get into some of the things he did in this thread. If your ego has you rejecting knowledge that's your problem and nobody elses. -Tom

 

[guest8905]

Fellas Fellas..... what happened to the Golden Rule?

StickKy

 

[Baba Ku]

Ah, so you do hold grudges, and you are being disrespectful to me on purpose. I wasn't aware...I thought your demeanor was because you were dense. My bad.

I was not being disrespectful, on purpose or any other wise.
I suggest some soul searching for you, Hempkat.

 

[HempKat]

Let me see, it's yours to tell folks where their place is or isn't, and yours to spread opinion with a firm base in ignorance, unchecked no less? Uhmm, okay, can I sign up for that or is this solely reserved for you?

It's an open forum man and stepping up is your right but if folk feel you're off mark the mustard will fly and that's just the way of it. It seems there is a lot of misplaced aggression flying around in here. I hope you're not too set in your ways to consider that a possibility. Your critiquing of folks replies to questions you clearly wanted answers to borders on the hilarious. BK was very likely right on target to straighten you out in that other thread, just as he is right on target to get into some of the things he did in this thread. If your ego has you rejecting knowledge that's your problem and nobody elses. -Tom

Where did I deny anyone else an opinion? I'm merely saying that if you come into a conversation mid stream you can't fairly or accurately judge things not knowing what came before you. Just because something at that moment seems a certain way doesn't necessarily mean it is.

I haven't rejected any knowledge. BK kept stressing you needed to grow the numbers to get the selections you want. I've already been over how I can't realistically do large numbers. So to keep telling me you got to do large numbers isn't providing knowledge. It's harping on one point. The intial question was which plants do you look to in order to get which traits. According to the answers given there seems to be some debate on the issue. Some seem to think the sexes do pass on particular traits and others don't. All that though would seem to be more relevent to the point where you've already made your cross and now you're stabilizing it. I'm talking about the intial stage though when the parents are two different strains. What factors are breeders looking at to decide which strain in a cross is the male and which is the female?

As for the rest I see you're fond of wild and absurd assumptions based on riddiculous criteria. I'm surprised someone that many in the community look up to would suggest it's okay to go into someone's thread and attack a person simply because they don't agree with an opinion. I mean literally, someone asked for my opinion on feminized seeds, I gave my opinion and then Baba ku comes in and starts belittling everyone who didn't share his opinion of feminized seeds. Sure it's fine to jump in and share an opinion if you have a different one but since opinions aren't facts it's unacceptable to attack people just because you disagee with their opinion. If your EGO prevents you from recognizing that reality, that's you're problem.

 

[HempKat]

Ah, so you do hold grudges, and you are being disrespectful to me on purpose. I wasn't aware...I thought your demeanor was because you were dense. My bad.

I was not being disrespectful, on purpose or any other wise.
I suggest some soul searching for you, Hempkat.

Funny you're very first post in the thread in question you called everyone in the discussion that didn't like feminized seed ignorant dumbasses and called their opinions bullshit. You don't see that as being disrespectful, on purpose or otherwise? I would suggest you try following your own suggestions.