A graphical representation of what happens after Death

[Anti]

maybe if it sad "happy is he because"

You asked for a quote about killing babies with a smile. I provided it. Now you want to argue about the word because? Maybe that works with your Christian buddies, but that's not gonna fly around here. Don't believe me? Watch and see.

A) i think it's safe to say that obama has done this inasmuch as we are engaged in conflicts where aerial bombing has cost many men women and children their lives

But Obama did NOT go on TV and say "A great happiness upon anyone in the US Armed Forces who goes out and smashes the babies of our enemies on sharp stones."

Are you trying to tell me that a leader who *DID* suggest such a thing would be worshiped as a god by modern humans?

no, he created sentient beings with a sense of free will/choice

I wish Ddrew were still around to answer this for you, but he's not. So I'll just do this:

​

one of them chose to defy him and led humanity into the current state

Look at the picture above. it answers this for you.

you might say "god is all-seeing/knowing/etc and therefor foresaw this" and i would then say "well, yes. but, maybe that is just best"

Pretty lame.

and, how do you know it's not?

Because my human brain tells me this is not an acceptable way for another human to behave. If it is not acceptable for humans, it is infinitely more unacceptable for an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent creator of everything. (We expect God to be greater than humans in every capacity. If humans can surpass God, seems to me it wasn't God.)

this problem came about when satan wanted to be like god and convinced adam and eve they could be as gods also - deciding for themself what is right and wrong

Satan didn't talk to adam and eve. Look it up. Adam and Eve got their advice from a serpent. (Not the brightest bulbs, Adam and Eve.)

BTW, yahwah may not be correct so read: jehovah yehivah yahweh or whatever you feel is the correct pronunciation of the tetragrammaton

All of them are wrong.

 

[Classyathome]

A) i think it's safe to say that obama has done this inasmuch as we are engaged in conflicts where aerial bombing has cost many men women and children their lives

Funny - blame the black guy...

If memory serves - it was the devout xtian, Shrub Jr., that ushered you into the latest debacle, not Obama.

Remember Shrub Jr. - the coke sniffin, hard drinkin, dui'd and cheney dick suckin'???

Shrub Jr. had his epiphany (like the imaginary paul) and was shown the light by his god - then said his god told him to go to war???

That moron??? - and I only use moron, because people with limited intelligence shouldn't be called retarded...

xtians have the shortest memories - besides, you do know jesus (if he had actually existed) would have looked alot more like Obama than Shrub Jr., right???

I wonder if Shrub Jr. has to wear a diaper now that cheney's hand isn't up his ass, keepin the sphincter sealed???

 

[xmobotx]

@ anti:

you're taking that scripture totally out of context - it's being used illustratively to show the extreme debasement of babylon.

so bad a person would be happy killing her babies

it's a figurative mention not related to incidents where entire communities were actually laid to the sword

inversely you then use the same sort of argument to discredit my next point -splitting hairs saying obama didn't speak it as a certain phrase (isn't the effect what matters? the actual events?)

Then, you pull some cliche out of your butt (in much the same fashion as I did saying "you might say - then i would say") and just because it's in the form of a demotivator gives it some authority -lol

human brain huh - well, anyway

i m only up to so much of this conversation. if you could actually prove something or present valid evidence sufficient to convince me i would like to see that

 

[xmobotx]

@ Classy

lol - the only thing w/ obama is that's the comparitor he threw out

no color issue (i have no problem w/ a concept of adam or moses or jesus or god being black if that's the case)

xtian and politician would seem to be mutually exclusive -probably as rich and xtian (eye of a needle - w/ god all things r possible)

sorry, i dont follow politics and i dont know who some of those guys are (nor do i care)

 

[jarff]

Live each moment as it were your last.That is the premise I follow b,cause none of us knows if there is an existence after death..I always say if there is life after death then it is a bonus or another chapter to our existence of life.
Most believe in an after life because they can,t stand the thought of thinking it as nothing but a black hole.
I am the master of my fate and the captain of my soul."Henly"
Also we can be nice to others in this life not only for getting us into heaven,but to help other humans who may be on the wrong road........
If anyone can convince me that there is in fact an afterlife then you are special....
jarff...read my sig.

 

[Anti]

i m only up to so much of this conversation. if you could actually prove something or present valid evidence sufficient to convince me i would like to see that

What exactly do you want me to provide evidence for, and what are you willing to provide in return? Will you provide evidence of God or an afterlife? That is, after all, the purpose of this thread.

 

[unthing]

Somewhow the concept of world with unjust suffering isn't that hard to believe

 

[Anti]

@ anti:

you're taking that scripture totally out of context - it's being used illustratively to show the extreme debasement of babylon.

so bad a person would be happy killing her babies

it's a figurative mention not related to incidents where entire communities were actually laid to the sword

So now we have to talk about what you believe to be true about the bible.

Is the bible the inspired word of the One True God, or is it a collection of anecdotes, mythology and historical tidbits?

Because my answer to you depends on your understanding of the bible.

 

[xmobotx]

What exactly do you want me to provide evidence for, and what are you willing to provide in return? Will you provide evidence of God or an afterlife? That is, after all, the purpose of this thread.

BTW, if i proved my side how would you then be able to prove your side - or visa-versa

ecclesiastes 9:5 says there is no life after death - i am in agreement w/ the jist of this thread

however, the bible does continue to explain that after this is all settled a select few will continue and live forever on the earth

basically we both expect the other to prove the unprove-able

for my part, it is inconceivable that this earth (such as it is situated) w/ all it's cycles (such as they serve each other and make life possible in the vacuum of space) happened by chance.

It is clear and obvious that it is the product of intelligent design - and therefor absurd to believe otherwise

King David said as much in the Psalms even including the marvelous inner workings of the human body

such things as the stars and planets marking seasons and times even ages marked by the movement of the sun through the zodiacal belt

then add the scientific accuracy of the bible (which does indicate the time-keeping nature of the heavens)

not to mention it's prophetic nature (matt 24 for instance) i mean really, what is with all these earthquakes?

So now we have to talk about what you believe to be true about the bible.

Is the bible the inspired word of the One True God, or is it a collection of anecdotes, mythology and historical tidbits?

Because my answer to you depends on your understanding of the bible.

What i believe to be true is that we have this chronicle as a sort of owner's manual for life. not only does it extrapolate the pitfalls faced by early man (problems generated by such activities as adultery, lying, stealing and how these interfered w/ the happiness of early man) w/ any luck a person can try to follow these guidelines and live a happier healthier life

Also we are offered the means to learn what god expects of us if we should happen to want to continue beyond what we see at this point - which is simply faith in the sacrifice of his son

Oh and BTW - I have never personally discovered any inconsistencies or conflicts within the bible - within the teachings of religions OTOH? that's an entirely different matter

I eschew religions - although i would readily admit that i have learned much from the JWs

But, how can anyone be right if they use "jesus" when that means "zeus is salvation?"

as far as pronouncing god's name, the time is coming when everyone living will know how to pronounce it (psalm 83:18) because this is all coming to a head very fast

 

[xmobotx]

So now we have to talk about what you believe to be true about the bible.

Is the bible the inspired word of the One True God, or is it a collection of anecdotes, mythology and historical tidbits?

Because my answer to you depends on your understanding of the bible.

oh, i guess i failed to confirm that i do believe it is the inspired work of god

 

[Anti]

BTW, if i proved my side how would you then be able to prove your side - or visa-versa

If you proved your side, you'd probably win a Nobel prize since nobody in the history of the human race has been able to pull it off.

If I proved my side, well.. what exactly is my side? My side is that the world's religions are based on conjecture, hope and bad science and that the world has not conclusively answered the question "Does God Exist?"

Therefore, my side is that we should not look to religion to answer these sorts of questions and that we should strive to be in a place of open, honest contemplation. To admit that we don't know (and may never know) and learn to become comfortable with that.

Becoming comfortable with not knowing doesn't necessarily mean we have to stop looking for the answers, but it means that we must accept that we don't know the answer and stop trying to "prove" the answer that we hope to be true.

So how can I prove that we don't know conclusively? Well, I'd say that if you can't offer proof, I win?

Seems fair to me.

ecclesiastes 9:5 says there is no life after death - i am in agreement w/ the jist of this thread

So is the bible the inspired holy word of the one true god, or is it the collected writings of ancient people?

If it *IS* the inspired word of the one true god, then my quoting of the "smash the babies" segment is valid. If it's NOT the inspired word of the one true god then your quotation is relatively meaningless - as it was written by normal, mortal men.

Which is it?

basically we both expect the other to prove the unprove-able

If something exists then it is not unprovable, it is merely unproven until its eventual discovery. So if God exists, it is not unprovable, just unproven.

If something does not exist then it is unprovable, because it is impossible to be everywhere at once in order to state definitively that "I have looked literally everywhere and it just isn't here." Therefore it is impossible to prove a negative.

However, I am not an atheist. I have not claimed that no such entity as God exists. I have simply claimed that the bible and other holy books are fairy tales, written by men, for the purposes of instruction, indoctrination, comfort and control.

for my part, it is inconceivable that this earth (such as it is situated) w/ all it's cycles (such as they serve each other and make life possible in the vacuum of space) happened by chance.

#1. The fact that it is inconceivable (to you) that things could have happen "by chance" does not in any way lend credibility to your assertion that therefore "goddidit."

#2. What do you suppose the chances are of Tiger Woods (or you, or anyone) hitting a certain blade of grass with their golfball?

Billions to one (if you only count that one golf course)?

Or even Trillians to one (If you only count the grass surrounding that golf course)?

Or millions of billions to one (if you count all the grass on the planet)?

Pick any of them (let's say the golf course to make it simpler) and then ask people to lay bets on individual blades of grass. Even if you offer incredible odds, I suspect that nobody is going to take that bet! The odds of picking the right blade of grass out of all the grass on that course are not very good.

But here's the thing... even with all that statistical improbability going against it.. that ball is going to land on a blade (or two, or more) of grass. Even at odds of billions (or trillians, or more) to one, that ball is going to land SOMEWHERE.

So even if it is statistically improbable that life could just "happen" to evolve here in this "special" place... it happens every day.

It is clear and obvious that it is the product of intelligent design - and therefor absurd to believe otherwise

Well, hopefully I just cleared you of this misconception with my Tiger Woods analogy above. Hopefully you can see now that when you look at a universe with over a billion KNOWN galaxies (and counting), where each galaxy is teeming with hundreds of millions of stars (and counting) there are bound to be some of those stars in "habitable" regions and that some of those stars within habitable regions are going to have planets around them and that some of those planets are bound to be in the "habitable" region around those stars and we have evidence for at least one of them. (Earth.)

Therefore, to believe otherwise is quite credible and reasonable, given the scope of current knowledge. Wouldn't it be much less absurd than saying "goddidit?"

then add the scientific accuracy of the bible (which does indicate the time-keeping nature of the heavens)

Having some science right does not mean that everything on the pages is right.

Suppose I said, for instance:

"2+2=4, therefore the moon is made of cupcakes."

2+2 does equal four... so I suppose the moon really IS made of cupcakes, right? I mean, the scientific accuracy of the first part of my statement is irrefutable, so therefore the rest of my statement is bound to be true, right?

not to mention it's prophetic nature (matt 24 for instance) i mean really, what is with all these earthquakes?

Oh. Well the center of our planet is a molten metal core and around the dense metal of the core there are continental plates made up of less substantial rock and earth. These continents are in constant movement and when two of them rub against one another, the force of their movements causes a tremor in the ground which we call an earthquake. These things are incredibly common and will continue to be so for millions (or billions) of years until the core solidifies and the continents stop drifting.

What i believe to be true is that we have this chronicle as a sort of owner's manual for life. not only does it extrapolate the pitfalls faced by early man (problems generated by such activities as adultery, lying, stealing and how these interfered w/ the happiness of early man) w/ any luck a person can try to follow these guidelines and live a happier healthier life

So, by following these guidelines, you will be sure to kill the next of your female coworkers who knowingly sleeps with a man that isn't her husband. You will also murder any girl who has been raped but cannot PROVE that she was raped. You will, of course, be willing to let her live if she can find the rapist and convince him to marry her. Right?

Also we are offered the means to learn what god expects of us if we should happen to want to continue beyond what we see at this point - which is simply faith in the sacrifice of his son

So it *IS* the inspired word of the one true god then? Splendid.

Any quote from the bible is therefore 100% true. Anything I find written in the book is exactly how we all ought to behave if we wish to please god and be one of the few souls who make it into heaven?

Oh and BTW - I have never personally discovered any inconsistencies or conflicts within the bible - within the teachings of religions OTOH? that's an entirely different matter

PSALMS 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

HOSEA 13:16 "The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."

Can you please explain how it is consistent that God is "good to all" and his "tender mercies" are over ALL his works, and the next selection from Hosea, where God commands us to kill pregnant women in order to destroy the fetus developing within her?

I eschew religions - although i would readily admit that i have learned much from the JWs

I also eschew religions and I can readily admit that I have learned much from many of them.

as far as pronouncing god's name, the time is coming when everyone living will know how to pronounce it (psalm 83:18) because this is all coming to a head very fast

All of the ways you pronounced it are wrong. Once again, if you can prove you're right, you'll be a very famous person.

 

[xmobotx]

* funny, i dont know the stats but the concept is already proven in the minds of a generous portion of the populace (not proof in itself for the non-believer) but "if i had to explain you wouldn't understand" for the non-believer

* so, i agree that ther is not life after death and that somehow becomes an issue addressed at another point in the discussion

* OK, you will never prove the non-existence of god - and likely the proof is coming quickly

* i didnt say it was inconceivable to me i said it was inconceivable -of course its same/same attempting to prove life on another planet

blades of grass hit by a golf ball WTF?

* "blades of grass hit by a golf ball WTF?"

If you innoculate a petri dish w/ some biology, in a sterile environment, that specific biology grows and develops to it's limitations -it does not evolve! non-sterile - multitudes of biology develop to their limitations -they do not evolve! adapt maybe NOT evolve. there is zero proof for evolution SO, how did this planet get innoculated or ever "evolve" to this point? just by chance? a far greater leap than intelligent direction

* but, having all the science present be accurate when the knowledge was not present in that time or later times is significant

bullshit analogies to basic math and absurd statements oversimplify the matter ignoring the significance

* thanks for the "science" -those things are also "unproven"

the events of these times were prophesied and those prophesies are coming true in rapid succession -including an excess of earthquakes natural disasters and animal attacks

population bomb stuff? -possibly; but how did a 33 CE isrealite anticipate that? NTM the handful of prophets who also alluded to similar things

* you are referring to mosaic law which is null since the sacrifice of yishYahwah - we are no longer the judges, we are observers and teachers (teaching tolerance -let the wicked continue in their way)

* thanks for pointing that out - i hadn't considered that a contradiction - i suppose a parent who rebukes a child no longer loves the child?

* i believe it is the inspired word

* have you ever heard the expression "if you think you know everything you'll never learn anything?"

* so, how do you pronounce it?

 

[Anti]

* funny, i dont know the stats but the concept is already proven in the minds of a generous portion of the populace (not proof in itself for the non-believer) but "if i had to explain you wouldn't understand" for the non-believer

Not sure what you are refering to here. Quoting helps.

* so, i agree that ther is not life after death and that somehow becomes an issue addressed at another point in the discussion

Huh?

* OK, you will never prove the non-existence of god - and likely the proof is coming quickly

So, i take it you do NOT have proof? I guess I win?

* i didnt say it was inconceivable to me i said it was inconceivable -of course its same/same attempting to prove life on another planet

I know you said it was inconceivable... the problem is... I have no trouble conceiving of it... and then I gave you a very detailed explanation that SHOWS I have no trouble conceiving it... therefore it is only inconceivable to YOU. (Hence why I put "(to you)" in the last post.)

blades of grass hit by a golf ball WTF?

I was trying to show you that things that seem improbably unlikely still happen. Like, if I hit a golf ball on a golf course, the chances of hitting any one blade of grass are 1,000,000,000:1 or more. Yet each and every time someone hits a golfball... it lands somewhere. So even though it may seem statistically improbable, the fact is that with a large enough sample, those odds are bound to come up.

* "blades of grass hit by a golf ball WTF?"

I think you're just repeating yourself here.

If you innoculate a petri dish w/ some biology, in a sterile environment, that specific biology grows and develops to it's limitations -it does not evolve! non-sterile - multitudes of biology develop to their limitations -they do not evolve! adapt maybe NOT evolve. there is zero proof for evolution SO, how did this planet get innoculated or ever "evolve" to this point? just by chance? a far greater leap than intelligent direction

How about "I don't know" as the answer? If you don't know yet, why bother to posit that an intelligent designer did it? Why not just say, "Not sure how this all works yet."

If my car starts in the morning, but I have no knowledge of spark plugs, fuel injection, batteries, alternators and electrical components..... does that mean god did it?

* but, having all the science present be accurate when the knowledge was not present in that time or later times is significant

All the science is *NOT* accurate in the bible. I hope this will not be a shock to you.

bullshit analogies to basic math and absurd statements oversimplify the matter ignoring the significance

What's the significance? Why do you tell me I missed it without taking the time to show everyone how I missed it? That'd help your argument a great deal.

My analogy was simplified for clarity. I can come up with a more complex analogy if that will satisfy you. Let me know.

* thanks for the "science" -those things are also "unproven"

Not sure what you're refering to here. Quoting helps.

the events of these times were prophesied and those prophesies are coming true in rapid succession -including an excess of earthquakes natural disasters and animal attacks

For thousands of years, someone somewhere has been prophesizing that the end of the world is just around the corner. And guess what? earthquakes, fires and floods are commonplace occurrences for the last 4.5 billion years or so.

population bomb stuff? -possibly; but how did a 33 CE isrealite anticipate that? NTM the handful of prophets who also alluded to similar things

Not sure what you are alluding to here. Quoting helps.

* you are referring to mosaic law which is null since the sacrifice of yishYahwah - we are no longer the judges, we are observers and teachers (teaching tolerance -let the wicked continue in their way)

So the OT is no longer the inspired word of the one true god? We can safely ignore every bit of the OT, then? Should I confine further discussion to the ridiculous nature of the NT? Does that mean that the all powerful, all knowing God changed his mind? Isn't that impossible?

* thanks for pointing that out - i hadn't considered that a contradiction - i suppose a parent who rebukes a child no longer loves the child?

No idea what you're talking about. Quoting helps.

* i believe it is the inspired word

So what is the OT? God's holy word for mankind or completely outdated?

* have you ever heard the expression "if you think you know everything you'll never learn anything?"

No. But I've heard similar expressions. What's your point? That one of your favorites? How's it relate to our discussion?

* so, how do you pronounce it?

Nobody knows. That's why you'd be famous if YOU knew.

 

[GrnMtnGrwr]

Anti, I applaud your efforts.

 

[Anti]

Btw - my argument using two biblical quotes to show the contradictions in the bible does not rest on the assumption that the OT rules are still in effect. It's merely a CONTRADICTION IN THE BIBLE. You can't explain the contradiction away by saying "the rule doesn't apply anymore." if it ever applied, ever, then there was a contradiction in the bible. Which means it is not infallible. Which means we must question ALL of it, since we are not ourselves omniscient. Which means we can trust none of it to be the inspired word of the one true god. Some of it may contain the wisdom of the ancients. And some of it contains the prejudices of the ancients. And some of it contains the misconceptions of the ancients.

 

[xmobotx]

i m satisfied that you can see what my stance is - and i see yours
so we disagree

let's pretty much just leave it at that because neither of us will convince the other

somehow i guess that will make you say that you win

you can't argue w/ logic like:

"2+2=4, therefore the moon is made of cupcakes."

2+2 does equal four... so I suppose the moon really IS made of cupcakes, right? I mean, the scientific accuracy of the first part of my statement is irrefutable, so therefore the rest of my statement is bound to be true, right?

lol

 

[diamondmine]

So you want a graphical representation of what happens after death?

Go to a funeral parlor...


...and while your there, tell them it's all good because the person is just gone and this world is all there is. They'll thank you for it.

 

[xmobotx]

So you want a graphical representation of what happens after death?

Go to a funeral parlor...


...and while your there, tell them it's all good because the person is just gone and this world is all there is. They'll thank you for it.

if the person were evil (maybe he's one of your baby rapists?) but the people you were telling the truth about life after death to actually cared about that person they might appreciate it

is there some inequity in that we go to sleep at night?

 

[Anti]

i m satisfied that you can see what my stance is - and i see yours
so we disagree

Your stance seems to be that you aren't going to look into anything that might contradict your already held beliefs. When challenged to provide evidence of contradictions, I provided it. You ignored it. Now you wanna quit. That's fine by me.

You can't argue with logic like...[insert anti's 2+2=cupcakes analogy]

Well... you were the one who was attempting to say that the Bible was scientifically accurate and THEREFORE we should believe every single bit of it.

I was using a very simplified example to show you why that sort of thinking just doesn't add up.

I'm sorry if it was somehow offensive to you.

Here's a new one:

Pure water only exists in a liquid state between the temperatures of 32 degrees Fahrenheit and 100 degrees Fahrenheit. Jesus never existed.

Can you see how the truth of the first statement (water exists in a liquid state from 32-100 degrees) has nothing at all to do with the second statement?

I hope so. I thought the whole 2+2=cupcakes example was sufficiently ridiculous to let you see the problem with your reasoning, but perhaps this one managed to get through to you.

(Just in case it DIDN'T get through, let me say that your statement that the accuracy of the science in the bible somehow proves it is the inspired word of the one true god is just as ridiculous as my cupcake example.)

See why your argument doesn't hold water? No cupcakes or math in sight.

My argument doesn't hold water because it is not a basin, it's a logical statement. Your argument doesn't hold water because it is full of holes.

 

[chuckyoufarley]

thats what i saw for 5 1/2 minutes