A Demonic Deluge

[delta9nxs]

The added energy from the venturi effect would have 3 benefits that I can see... 1. Nutrients stay in solution 2. Increased O2 and 3. It stops the top container from overflowing.

You need a constant 4hs of lights off for the stomata to open and gases to be exchanged... So 1hr on 1hr off wouldn't allow for gas exchange and you're losing 4hs of energy input for photosynthesis when compared to 8on 4off x2.

i think i'm seeing a faster veg with this regime. i've been doing it for about a year with no ill effects. so far no plant has flowered under it.

Where are all the ?

my room is so badly overgrown that i can't get any overall pics of even a single plant. basically there is a little space cleared around each bulb. i can't move around easily and break branches every time i go in.

i thought that if i flipped a week earlier i would be ok but the new containers really worked well and i got uncontrolled monsters again.

i'm growing a lot of larf like last time but will still get a decent amount of bud out of it.

at the end of this run i'm going back to a perpetual show. 10 plants in flower and 3 in a veg chamber. a plant a week.

at my old location i had a year run with 48 plants total. most were over a lb. a lot of 18-20 zip plants with only 5K.

i've been meaning to ask you about double stacking my lights safely as i'm probably going to have to continue using these for a while until i can build the "thingy".

you've seen my bulbs. i'm thinking about putting a metal plate on each socket and hanging them with chain. once i double stack i won't have to move them up and down.

 

[delta9nxs]

so D9... What's to stop you from constructing a PPK flower bed? Cause I'm picking up what you're laying down... and it seems like that would give you the most surface area. Not being limited by plastic containers. I'm envisioning a long grow bed sitting on top of some interconnected tough boxes for reservoirs... the tough boxes can sit on casters so you can move them around like you do now...

Anyway, just tossing out ideas.

yeah, at tractor supply they have water troughs that would work. or a big flat kiddie pool like those 4' ones at wally's. one of those fits on a half sheet of plywood. i built an ebb and flow like that with another pool underneath. 50 gals of medium. i want to do one outside.

 

[delta9nxs]

and now, for your musical edification;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0i62GnQoo0

 

[bobblehead]

This is a picture of how I first stacked my lamps... now I just use a mogul and 14g wire so i can squeeze the lamps in tight. The plants really explode with the tight stacks ime. I should put a piece of metal on my moguls to secure the cord... Right now there are hooks screwed in so I can just hang the mogul from a chain or turnbuckle. Then I secure the cord to the chain/cable and support it from the ceiling. It really doesn't take that long once you get going... and you'll feel a lot safer about your grow not burning down... although I kinda wish my lake house would just burn down. I'd still come out ahead making the insurance claim at this point... not sure what they'd say when they found all the ballasts and ICB tanks though... ha ha....

 

[delta9nxs]

This is a picture of how I first stacked my lamps... now I just use a mogul and 14g wire so i can squeeze the lamps in tight. The plants really explode with the tight stacks ime. I should put a piece of metal on my moguls to secure the cord... Right now there are hooks screwed in so I can just hang the mogul from a chain or turnbuckle. Then I secure the cord to the chain/cable and support it from the ceiling. It really doesn't take that long once you get going... and you'll feel a lot safer about your grow not burning down... although I kinda wish my lake house would just burn down. I'd still come out ahead making the insurance claim at this point... not sure what they'd say when they found all the ballasts and ICB tanks though... ha ha....
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thank you! turnbuckles! much easier to rig than the flat metal plates that i was thinking about. already got a hole in the middle and infinitely adjustable. i can hang the whole rig from my center pipe.

can you send that addy to: Torchy McBurns@BigHouse.com Torchy is Class of 2013 and will be getting out soon. i'm sure he will be looking for employment.

 

[delta9nxs]

self explanatory except to say that the holes should have been about a half inch further outboard to fit the top of a 3.5. in the third photo it's sitting in a 3.5

with this there would be no need for a lid as the tailpieces, properly installed, would center the top container.

so, in the first pic you can see the drill marks at 3/4" outboard of the ring molded into the bottom. i think that should be about 1 1/4" instead. i'll do one in a few days to make sure.

the 3 of these together have about the same flow capacity as a 2.5" tube.

 

[catman]

Just when I thought I decided to quit growing and smoking, I found this new thread to keep me up all night and get me thinking right. If a doctor won't help me because of my legal cannabis use, then I won't fuckin' help him either$

I'm glad to see your passions and plants are still thriving D9, IF, and everyone else on the PPK scene. I hope we can look back on previous discussions we've had and laugh Like many newer posters in this current thread, I had gotten an impression that you folks haven't exactly figured out what the hell your talking about, but dammit do ya try and all one needs is eyes to see that your on to something. Honesty and openness along with trail and error, and team work with persistency leads to success with less stress!

Before I go on with more commas and run-on-sentences, I wanted to share what I've recently seen with my own eyes. I shutdown awhile ago, but I'm always curious so I decided to do a classic PPK experiment...a stress test on the plants. With 5 gal buckets with tailpieces sitting on 3.5 gal sub rezs filled with run off, I just kept hand watering based upon the looks of the plant. In the past month I watered them no more than once a week, all the while the tailpieces and eventually creeping roots having been sitting in seemingly stale water. I only used foil tape to attach my screens to the tailpiece and 2 years later they are still holding, so fuck drilling holes, zip ties, and clogs. Temperatures during this time were tested up to lower 90s for days at a time with RH below 20% and the plants still kept growing! Granted lower foliage and branches do suffer, but not the tops. If I let my tap water sit in just a bucket for about 4 days, I begin to see pathogens grow. I was rather surprised to find clean water to the eye sitting in the bottom buckets after all of this messing around. So, I hope that helps reinforce the lack of a need for a chiller and the resilience advantage to this growing methodology.

I'm willing to trade Turface for chillers and other gizmos however Hell, maybe a fellow could get by for awhile selling screened Turface. I don't wish to downplay other aspects of these systems, but Turface in a medium is the backbone of the PPK in my humble opinion. I mix it with screened perlite because turface soaks-in water and perlite is the opposite as it has no pores so water only clings to the outside of it. Yes perlite floats, but I don't believe it is an issue. I've played around with the mix plenty in the bathtub and I dump a 5 gal bucket of water on top of it as fast as possible and the vast majority of perlite stays where it belongs even when the mix is 100% saturated. Turface is heavy and being we've come to realize we don't need so much medium, perlite is also nice because of its feather weight.

I use to grow plants in 16 ounce beer pong cups, 2L bottles, and various shaped containers with a 150W HPS. Although I obviously wasn't growing monster plants, the height of the container had significant effects on the vertical growth of the plants especially during the stretch. That being said, I'm skeptical of the wider and shallow container idea. With proper plant training a 5 gallon bucket is already enough to create wide bushes... ashes to ashes, back to dust. I do understand how the shallower wider containers are conducive to the gas displacement theory, but given a drier medium holds more oxygen, frequently flooding a medium which already clings on to water so much now seems paradoxical regarding the goal of keeping oxygen available to the roots. When the roots deplete a gas, no empty space is left behind as no tricks are needed for new gases to replace a void. Our plants themselves are wicks and water is what supports plants structure. The deeper a root system is in contrast with the tops of the plants that are transpiring, the more atmospheric pressure is forced on the roots allowing them to drive plant growth higher into the air. We can create more air roots for which there is a greater surface area to force lesser pressure on more roots to drive upward growth in theory, but maybe this is wasteful given we are growing buds and not roots. Hydroponic systems are proof that lesser roots, with greater amounts of pressure applied to them can out yield other cultures that produce more roots. If our concern is the roots sensing horizontal space then why not coat our containers with a product that chemically prunes roots and prevents spinout? The effect of a product that does this seems to accomplish the same thing as air pots or bags without having excessive water leaving the medium and salts behind....Just some food for thought as always

 

[FlowerFarmer]

self explanatory except to say that the holes should have been about a half inch further outboard to fit the top of a 3.5. in the third photo it's sitting in a 3.5

with this there would be no need for a lid as the tailpieces, properly installed, would center the top container.

so, in the first pic you can see the drill marks at 3/4" outboard of the ring molded into the bottom. i think that should be about 1 1/4" instead. i'll do one in a few days to make sure.

the 3 of these together have about the same flow capacity as a 2.5" tube.

So you're saying that the multiple tailpipes are needed because once roots are established in mass the container is not draining as quickly as needed. (not necessarily for any superior wicking purpose).

Maybe you've mentioned elsewhere, but why did you do away with the holes that assisted in the drainage addition to the tailpiece?

Are you not able to get a complete saturation with a few drain holes in the bottom of the upper container?


Never had the top container spill over with turface because its not draining through the tailpieces faster then a pulse is occurring. I figure if one establishes a pulse duration at one point earlier in growth that that may become overwelming for the tailpipe later on and could result in the flood.

How often are you adjusting the pulse schedule throughout the grow?

 

[DHF]

The way IF explained it the other day about no holes in the upper containers was because......

Once roots drop down into the bottom container , then it`s nothing more or less than a different form of DWC , and with the air gap between the upper and lower level of juice in the bottom containers guaranteed ........

"Cord roots " will develop as a survival mechanism and divert plant energy above from foliage/budsite production , while inviting all the Root Rot potential with roots sittin in any juice above 70 degrees WITHOUT recirculating and CHILLIN solution to provide proper solution temps and added O2 to keep roots alive....anyways......

That`s my take on these plant killers , cuz they defy all laws of hydro pot plants growin that I`m waaaay more than well versed in.......so.....

Hope that helps.....DHF...........

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

The way IF explained it the other day about no holes in the upper containers was because......

Once roots drop down into the bottom container , then it`s nothing more or less than a different form of DWC , and with the air gap between the upper and lower level of juice in the bottom containers guaranteed ........

"Cord roots " will develop as a survival mechanism and divert plant energy above from foliage/budsite production , while inviting all the Root Rot potential with roots sittin in any juice above 70 degrees WITHOUT recirculating and CHILLIN solution to provide proper solution temps and added O2 to keep roots alive....anyways......

That`s my take on these plant killers , cuz they defy all laws of hydro pot plants growin that I`m waaaay more than well versed in.......so.....

Hope that helps.....DHF...........

that's how I read it too

 

[catman]

Word Fred. That's what I understood from Heath.

 

[forkup]

I can't believe I just found this thread. Hat's off again to the ever evolving ppk. As I read thru I had several questions but they were answered in the next few posts, good job guys! D9 looks like you continue to underestimate the growth rate of the ppks. With the leaps and bounds in the evolution of the system I guess that's par for the course. I agree with your thought train on the wider upper pots increased growth rates. It makes sense that with the lower depth of media it's easier to exchange gases while the larger diameter allows for the same or more media. Plus there's the drip line theory. I wonder how much may be attributed to the increased media volume.

As you know coco drain to waste is another fast growing system tho less efficient as far as nute waste. I thought for a time the ppk was heading in the direction of drain to waste with the saturation pulsing. This is how I ran coco d2w with increased solution volume and up to 7 water cycles per day. From what I remember the theory was your original perpetual system with plants in different stages helped maintain a balanced system with a stable ph and ppm. Since you're not currently running perpetual does it still balance out as well as the perpetual? Are you able to steer the solution as needed without rez change outs?

In any case the wider, shallower pots with no hole drilling makes the system easier to build. I look forward to your supply/drain upgrade to compare it to hl452 and others. I can hardly wait to try the system myself. Hopefully before spring after I complete a cross country move from NC to WA.

 

[DHF]

Ok.....Let`s go ta school on the faster drainin/ increased pulse feed thingy for faster gas exchange/fresh O2 rootzone replenishment with the new wave "3 tailpiece medium filled wicks" .......and.....

Forever and a day........with a "Fast Hydro" setup . High flow highly oxygenated juice and constant rootmass exposure is the rule of thumb for accelerated growth and yields....period.....that said......

Since yas`re tryin ta feed more and drain faster , when is the tailpiece`s "wicking ability" gonna be negated and be more for upper plant container support as well as the gas exchange vessels......anyways.......

D9.....This is some trailblazing awesome shit and I`m on board.....My lil GF`s beggin me ta grow some dope , but paranoia stays prevalent in Fred-ville although I`m feelin weak......

Help me over the threshold my buddy.....Waitin for the bulletproof setup with minimal veg times and max returns like I usedta get with Krusty buckets.....

Hook a Brotha up........Waitin over here on my bucket.......

Peace.....Freds..........

 

[village green]

Hey DHF
It's been a few months since I read the old PPK thread but there was a good chunk of it dedicated to laying out the research, then the results, of feeding the root mass from the bottom and the top. Lots of discussion of gas exchange and buffering the nutrient effects. The drain pipes have material attached to the end to hold your medium in and allow for drainage. I wish Mr_D would try this and chime in. He had a post a week or two ago about feed strength according to medium type that broke it down simpler than anyone I've read since "Lucas"...and D9 of course.

 

[delta9nxs]

"Since you're not currently running perpetual does it still balance out as well as the perpetual? Are you able to steer the solution as needed without rez change outs?"

hey, i think the perpetual did run more stable but it's easy to steer anyway. i've done some change outs and then didn't and don't see much difference using jack's.

good luck on your move!

 

[delta9nxs]

Ok.....Let`s go ta school on the faster drainin/ increased pulse feed thingy for faster gas exchange/fresh O2 rootzone replenishment with the new wave "3 tailpiece medium filled wicks" .......and.....

Forever and a day........with a "Fast Hydro" setup . High flow highly oxygenated juice and constant rootmass exposure is the rule of thumb for accelerated growth and yields....period.....that said......

Since yas`re tryin ta feed more and drain faster , when is the tailpiece`s "wicking ability" gonna be negated and be more for upper plant container support as well as the gas exchange vessels......anyways.......

D9.....This is some trailblazing awesome shit and I`m on board.....My lil GF`s beggin me ta grow some dope , but paranoia stays prevalent in Fred-ville although I`m feelin weak......

Help me over the threshold my buddy.....Waitin for the bulletproof setup with minimal veg times and max returns like I usedta get with Krusty buckets.....

Hook a Brotha up........Waitin over here on my bucket.......

Peace.....Freds..........

hey fred! you will love this thing! i'll start building one in a few days with pics. get the buckets and the top tubs together, 3 tailpieces for each. turface if you can find it. more tomorrow!

 

[FlowerFarmer]

You mentioned something somewhere about the more ridged/sturdy of two types of 3.5 Gal bottoms.

Which were those again.. cant seem to locate now. USplastics? Got a SKU?


Was going to try to use my current 27 Gal lowes strong boxes as my bottoms, but think I may just duplicate what you're doing here.
The local TractorSupply is getting some more of the 7 Gal feed tubs in..likely just take the easy route and order some 3.5s online instead of hunting them down locally.

-Sorry for all the questions regarding shit you've already answered... I know the answers are around here somewhere, but so many PPK threads/posts.. so little time.

 

[delta9nxs]

You mentioned something somewhere about the more ridged/sturdy of two types of 3.5 Gal bottoms.

Which were those again.. cant seem to locate now. USplastics? Got a SKU?


Was going to try to use my current 27 Gal lowes strong boxes as my bottoms, but think I may just duplicate what you're doing here.
The local TractorSupply is getting some more of the 7 Gal feed tubs in..likely just take the easy route and order some 3.5s online instead of hunting them down locally.

-Sorry for all the questions regarding shit you've already answered... I know the answers are around here somewhere, but so many PPK threads/posts.. so little time.

don't worry about it!

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=65248&catid=752

i now consider the tire valve tech to be inadequate as sub-irrigation links for saturation pulsing in containers larger than the 3.5's. mine are 3/16" ID and i have 2 per bucket and it's borderline. i think it's time to go to a single 1/2" drain.

 

[bobblehead]

Might as well make it 3/4" so you never have to upgrade again... Just a thought... Overkill being underrated and all.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

don't worry about it!

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=65248&catid=752

i now consider the tire valve tech to be inadequate as sub-irrigation links for saturation pulsing in containers larger than the 3.5's. mine are 3/16" ID and i have 2 per bucket and it's borderline. i think it's time to go to a single 1/2" drain.

Thank ya sir'


I actually found some black 3 Gals at the hydro shop for around $3.90/ea so I just went with them after all. They are listed as 3 Gal, but have the same dimensions as the one's you've linked to. I think they will work just fine.


So..
7 Gal Feed Tubs for my tops (no holes aside from tailpieces)
3 Gal Buckets for my bottoms
3 tailpieces in a triangular fashion
Going standard 1/2" bulkhead drains as I'm already setup for it.

And we are going straight Turface (no more hulls), but well rinsed and screened?


Shooting for full saturation pulse as often as possible.