V
Vampire
Such useful info here. Bookmarked.
A Complete Guide to Topping, Training and Pruning
- Thread starter Kodiak
- Start date
NoCo Med Grow
New member
Huge help and great explanation!! Thank you for taking the time to write all that information and link it with photos. I am printing out my instruction sheets now 
No problem
I would like to point out at this time, that I cannot edit the guide any further because it contains more pictures than the current limit.
I would have to split it up over several posts in order to change the content.
Scroll down to my second post for future updates.
I would like to point out at this time, that I cannot edit the guide any further because it contains more pictures than the current limit.
I would have to split it up over several posts in order to change the content.
Scroll down to my second post for future updates.
M
MrSterling
Quick question, it may be a dumb one. If you LST a plant already flowering, would the popcorns(I think I've heard people call this LARF on here a lot? Not a term I'm used to.), now exposed to full light, grow into colas or thicker nugs? Is LST a waste of time if you didn't already start in vegetative?
I hear a lot of people talk about direct light on a bud affecting its size - I understand how direct light on the entire plant would matter, but the idea that specific buds will suffer from shade over them confuses me. I digress though.
Thanks to all who have contributed to this dank thread.
- Mr. S
I hear a lot of people talk about direct light on a bud affecting its size - I understand how direct light on the entire plant would matter, but the idea that specific buds will suffer from shade over them confuses me. I digress though.
Thanks to all who have contributed to this dank thread.
- Mr. S
Hi MrSterling,
In my experience, the lower popcorn buds never really gain much weight. I've tried harvesting the top half of the plant first and then allowing the lower buds to flower on for several additional weeks, but it really wasen't worth the wait. The growth remains quite slow. I think that it's a combination of low light and apical dominance that keeps them from growing under normal circumstances. They are constantly being suppressed by growth inhibitors that originate from the dominant shoots. The lower branches are put to better use as clones for the next grow. Nature likes having "backups" and that is exactely what the popcorn buds are. They are there to make sure that some seeds are formed, even when the entire top half of the plant is destroyed or eaten.
LST is not a waste of time at any point. I train plants in flowering as well (like autoflowering plants). You can start at any time, it's not a problem. Since you are not removing anything from the plants, it's just a matter of time before the shoots curl back up towards the light. There's no real loss here. It's actually a very effective way of keeping the plants short and compact, while increasing on the amount of bud. That occurs as the apical dominance of the main shoot(s) is cancelled out, allowing the secondary shoots to grow more rapidly in size.
Naturally, you would have to start the training early for the best results but it can be done at any time. I usually start by topping them once in veg, just to get things going. You can keep up the training for as long as you want and stop whenever you choose. It's low-stress, so it won't hurt the plants. They will try to adapt to anything that you throw at them. It takes about 24 hours for the shoots to turn towards the light again, so you will see results fairly soon.
If you are unsure, try it and see what happens. That is how we discover these techniques, through experimentation. Most things actually work because the plants refuse to just lay down and die. Instead, they adapt.
Nothing is written in stone when it comes to growing, nor are plants as static as they appear to be. I think that it's best not to think in definite terms but to keep an open mind. You might have to extend the flowering time a bit if you make some radical moves, but as long as the plant remains alive, it will also eventually reach the end of the flowering stage. Flowering times are not always the same (even with clones), as it is also affected by the environment. The various stages can be manipulated, or shifted, in order to reach the result that you need. Even the shape of the plant has some effects on the flowering cycle. To give you an example, the onset of flowering in autoflowering plants can be delayed by topping and training the plant. You get more veg time out of them that way, especially if you feed them mostly veg nutes at the same time.
It's also good to allow the plants to recover between the various stages of training. I top, then tie down the shoots but I also release them later on. That gives me a better idea of what to do next. I then tie down the branches again, along with new shoots that have grown as a result. Keep in mind that the plant produces jasmonic acid when it is wounded. It's a natural pesticide but also a growth inhibitor. The plant goes into "defence mode" and stops growing until the threat is over, so don't overdo it at any stage. Slowly but surely. LSTing is different from topping or supercropping because it's low-stress. It does not evoke a strong reaction from the plant. The shoots just curl up and continute where they left off. Sometimes when the branch is close to the soil, roots will start to form on it. This auxiliary root system allows for a natural way of cloning, if the branch then breaks loose from the host. It's often used to make clones of apple trees and such.
I think that the real question here centers around the potential gain or loss that stems from defoliation.
I think that most of the energy that the plant uses is produced in the larger fan leaves. Every part of the plant needs it but it's not produced everywhere. The fan leaves have the greatest surface area and also the greatest concentration of chloroplasts, which are used in photosynthesis. I think that the smaller leaves on the bud, mostly provide it with local energy. It's just another of nature's backups. The plant cannot function properly without the fan leaves, as they supply the roots with energy. I know this because I have seen how "bud leaves" turns into fan leaves, when the original ones are removed. Clearly the plant wants and needs them. The flow of energy is really not that straight forward, as the various elements have to be turned into sugars and other compounds first, and that mainly takes place in the larger fan leaves. Important components are sent back and forth, depending on the environment. The plant is therefore in a constant state of flux.
I agree with you here. I also believe that most of the energy that goes into the bud, is actually produced elsewhere, mainly in the larger fan leaves. However, shoots that are stuck in the shade usually elongate to reach the light and that means that energy is wasted on building long stems. The plant sends growth hormones to the shoots that stuck in the shade. There are photo-sensitive pigments in the leaves (phytochromes) that keep track of that, as well as the length of the day. That is why it's good for the buds to be in direct light, as that allows the plant to concentrate its energy on the main buds. You can also free up more energy for the top half of the plant by removing growth on the lower half.
I am sure however that the leaves on the bud also perform a certain task. Like I said, I think that they supply the buds with additional energy but the bulk of the energy is still transported to the bud from the fan leaves (or perhaps the roots, where some of the sugars are stored). The energy is produced in the leaves, possibly pooled in the roots and then transported to where it's needed. The surplus energy is also stored in the fan leaves (like fat), so removing them also means that energy is wasted. It's possible that the "bud leaves" act like a buffer, making sure that the buds get at least some energy.
Light does have a certain effect on the bud, or more precisely, the formation of trichomes. We cannot change the cannabinoid profile of the plant (like the THC %), as that is already coded into its genes, but I think that we can stimulate the formation of trichomes with light, thereby affecting the density at which they occur. The main function of the trichomes is to provide the plant with various ways of defending itself. One of those functions is to prevent tissue damage from solar radiation.
So, in that sense, the buds do need light, but not for the reasons that were mentioned. I don't think that it affects the bud size to any greater degree, as the energy used to form the buds is made in other parts of the plant. If that were not the case, why would they have specialized structures like fan leaves to begin with? The floral structures are also specialized, their main function is to produce seeds, not photosynthesise.
There are numerous things that affect the final outcome, including things like soil quality, nutrients, pH, temps, the quality of the water, the intensity of the light, stress etc. etc. Getting hard evidence is pretty difficult. You would have to grow the same clones, side by side, and then compare the results in order to get a clear picture. Everything prior to that is basically speculation, so we have to rely on what we know about plants in general.
I believe in selective and careful defoliation, but not in stripping the plant entirely of the larger leaves, in order to expose the buds to more light. What's the point, if you are removing the "power plants" at the same time? In my experience, that has an adverse effect on the yield. The biggest and fattest buds are always on the plants that are largely left alone. I do a little bit of "investment planning" for them, but I also look for cues from the plants.
There is however room for discussion here and I will not go as far as saying that I am 100% sure about all of this. There's more to these things than what appears on the surface. Active transport and the way that plant cells work can get really complicated. There are reactions for every action and they all work towards a balance.
Still, nature knows best. I train the plants but also allow them to make adjustments on their own terms. When leaves are no longer needed, or become energy sinks, the plant will relocate the energy to other areas.
The less I mess with the plants, the better they seem to do. My job is to make sure that they have everything that they need. Nature takes care of the rest.
In my experience, the lower popcorn buds never really gain much weight. I've tried harvesting the top half of the plant first and then allowing the lower buds to flower on for several additional weeks, but it really wasen't worth the wait. The growth remains quite slow. I think that it's a combination of low light and apical dominance that keeps them from growing under normal circumstances. They are constantly being suppressed by growth inhibitors that originate from the dominant shoots. The lower branches are put to better use as clones for the next grow. Nature likes having "backups" and that is exactely what the popcorn buds are. They are there to make sure that some seeds are formed, even when the entire top half of the plant is destroyed or eaten.
LST is not a waste of time at any point. I train plants in flowering as well (like autoflowering plants). You can start at any time, it's not a problem. Since you are not removing anything from the plants, it's just a matter of time before the shoots curl back up towards the light. There's no real loss here. It's actually a very effective way of keeping the plants short and compact, while increasing on the amount of bud. That occurs as the apical dominance of the main shoot(s) is cancelled out, allowing the secondary shoots to grow more rapidly in size.
Naturally, you would have to start the training early for the best results but it can be done at any time. I usually start by topping them once in veg, just to get things going. You can keep up the training for as long as you want and stop whenever you choose. It's low-stress, so it won't hurt the plants. They will try to adapt to anything that you throw at them. It takes about 24 hours for the shoots to turn towards the light again, so you will see results fairly soon.
If you are unsure, try it and see what happens. That is how we discover these techniques, through experimentation. Most things actually work because the plants refuse to just lay down and die. Instead, they adapt.
Nothing is written in stone when it comes to growing, nor are plants as static as they appear to be. I think that it's best not to think in definite terms but to keep an open mind. You might have to extend the flowering time a bit if you make some radical moves, but as long as the plant remains alive, it will also eventually reach the end of the flowering stage. Flowering times are not always the same (even with clones), as it is also affected by the environment. The various stages can be manipulated, or shifted, in order to reach the result that you need. Even the shape of the plant has some effects on the flowering cycle. To give you an example, the onset of flowering in autoflowering plants can be delayed by topping and training the plant. You get more veg time out of them that way, especially if you feed them mostly veg nutes at the same time.
It's also good to allow the plants to recover between the various stages of training. I top, then tie down the shoots but I also release them later on. That gives me a better idea of what to do next. I then tie down the branches again, along with new shoots that have grown as a result. Keep in mind that the plant produces jasmonic acid when it is wounded. It's a natural pesticide but also a growth inhibitor. The plant goes into "defence mode" and stops growing until the threat is over, so don't overdo it at any stage. Slowly but surely. LSTing is different from topping or supercropping because it's low-stress. It does not evoke a strong reaction from the plant. The shoots just curl up and continute where they left off. Sometimes when the branch is close to the soil, roots will start to form on it. This auxiliary root system allows for a natural way of cloning, if the branch then breaks loose from the host. It's often used to make clones of apple trees and such.
I think that the real question here centers around the potential gain or loss that stems from defoliation.
I think that most of the energy that the plant uses is produced in the larger fan leaves. Every part of the plant needs it but it's not produced everywhere. The fan leaves have the greatest surface area and also the greatest concentration of chloroplasts, which are used in photosynthesis. I think that the smaller leaves on the bud, mostly provide it with local energy. It's just another of nature's backups. The plant cannot function properly without the fan leaves, as they supply the roots with energy. I know this because I have seen how "bud leaves" turns into fan leaves, when the original ones are removed. Clearly the plant wants and needs them. The flow of energy is really not that straight forward, as the various elements have to be turned into sugars and other compounds first, and that mainly takes place in the larger fan leaves. Important components are sent back and forth, depending on the environment. The plant is therefore in a constant state of flux.
I agree with you here. I also believe that most of the energy that goes into the bud, is actually produced elsewhere, mainly in the larger fan leaves. However, shoots that are stuck in the shade usually elongate to reach the light and that means that energy is wasted on building long stems. The plant sends growth hormones to the shoots that stuck in the shade. There are photo-sensitive pigments in the leaves (phytochromes) that keep track of that, as well as the length of the day. That is why it's good for the buds to be in direct light, as that allows the plant to concentrate its energy on the main buds. You can also free up more energy for the top half of the plant by removing growth on the lower half.
I am sure however that the leaves on the bud also perform a certain task. Like I said, I think that they supply the buds with additional energy but the bulk of the energy is still transported to the bud from the fan leaves (or perhaps the roots, where some of the sugars are stored). The energy is produced in the leaves, possibly pooled in the roots and then transported to where it's needed. The surplus energy is also stored in the fan leaves (like fat), so removing them also means that energy is wasted. It's possible that the "bud leaves" act like a buffer, making sure that the buds get at least some energy.
Light does have a certain effect on the bud, or more precisely, the formation of trichomes. We cannot change the cannabinoid profile of the plant (like the THC %), as that is already coded into its genes, but I think that we can stimulate the formation of trichomes with light, thereby affecting the density at which they occur. The main function of the trichomes is to provide the plant with various ways of defending itself. One of those functions is to prevent tissue damage from solar radiation.
So, in that sense, the buds do need light, but not for the reasons that were mentioned. I don't think that it affects the bud size to any greater degree, as the energy used to form the buds is made in other parts of the plant. If that were not the case, why would they have specialized structures like fan leaves to begin with? The floral structures are also specialized, their main function is to produce seeds, not photosynthesise.
There are numerous things that affect the final outcome, including things like soil quality, nutrients, pH, temps, the quality of the water, the intensity of the light, stress etc. etc. Getting hard evidence is pretty difficult. You would have to grow the same clones, side by side, and then compare the results in order to get a clear picture. Everything prior to that is basically speculation, so we have to rely on what we know about plants in general.
I believe in selective and careful defoliation, but not in stripping the plant entirely of the larger leaves, in order to expose the buds to more light. What's the point, if you are removing the "power plants" at the same time? In my experience, that has an adverse effect on the yield. The biggest and fattest buds are always on the plants that are largely left alone. I do a little bit of "investment planning" for them, but I also look for cues from the plants.
There is however room for discussion here and I will not go as far as saying that I am 100% sure about all of this. There's more to these things than what appears on the surface. Active transport and the way that plant cells work can get really complicated. There are reactions for every action and they all work towards a balance.
Still, nature knows best. I train the plants but also allow them to make adjustments on their own terms. When leaves are no longer needed, or become energy sinks, the plant will relocate the energy to other areas.
The less I mess with the plants, the better they seem to do. My job is to make sure that they have everything that they need. Nature takes care of the rest.
Love your tutorial brother and I am working on getting my grow started. I was wondering... Using adjust a wings and running a scrog... what would be the max height or max filling of the screen before you flipped? Some people say wait until your screen is 1/3 to 3/4 full before the flip and some even say wait until you screen is completely full before flipping. I will have about 2.5' to 3' for actual plant height max. Using chow mix in 15 gallon pots and running 3 1k's over a 6' X 9' screen... can you offer any insight?
Thanks.
Thanks.
Thanks bro,
I usually place the scrog a little bit higher up, so that it supports the main colas. That also provides support for the rest of the plant. I also tie the main shoots to the scrog, thereby preventing them from tipping over. I direct the shoots through the holes as they grow. I don't wait for them to fill up the scrog before I flip the switch, because I also have to take the 12/12 stretch into account. I redirect the shoots into their own holes as I go along, thereby filling the entire grow area with buds. As long as the branches are soft, you can pretty much guide them wherever you want. I like to have the buds on top of the scrog but most of the plant still stays beneath. I then work my way from the bottom up, removing any parts of the plant that uses up more energy than it's worth (popcorn buds, branches that stretch too much etc.)
It's a gradual process, where I try to free up energy for the buds that are on top of the scrog. That allows them to grow bigger and fatter. The growth that remains in the shade is just using up energy that could be spent on the main colas but I also give the plant time to relocate most of the energy.
The light only penetrates so far. You can tell where the line between the active and passive area is, by looking under the scrog. Sometimes the line is more easy to spot when you wear sunglasses. The growth that is located within the well lit area stays, but I gradully remove the rest. I don't remove fan leaves because they can still photosynthesise for a while, until the plant draws the energy from them. They then go yellow and fall off. It's best to plan ahead, removing buds and branches that might end up using too much energy, as they appear. That way you'll make sure that the plant won't have time to invest energy into them.
You can do some preliminary LSTing in order to get the shoots where you want them. It's not necessary though, as long as you make sure that each main cola has enough space to grow (one per hole). I tuck the leaves underneath the scrog, or tie them down. If there are lots of leaves, I also sometimes tie them up in a bunch. That does not stop them from functioning.
As long as you have the right number of plants, they will eventually fill up the whole scrog. Ususually, there's no shortage of budding shoots. I top and train the plants in veg, in order to make sure of that. I also try to keep the structure very compact, with frequent nodes. That helps, when you are going for maximun yields. If you have fewer plants, you might have to do more training and leave more shoots on the plant. If you have lots of plants, you can go for a few strong main colas and gradully try to increase their size by freeing up energy for them.
If you spend some time in veg, training the plants, they usually end up with so many shoots that you can actually pick the strongest ones and remove the rest. It sort of depends on your style of growing but if every plants has, say 4-6 strong main colas, it will be enough to cover every square inch of the grow area when you add all the plants together.
I try to concentrate the energy towards these shoots, thereby allowing them to grow very big and wide. Picture one fat bud in every hole of the scrog, and you'll have a pretty good picture of how I do it.
I think that everyone has a slightly different approach, so you just have to figure what works best for your plants and the space that you have.
I usually place the scrog a little bit higher up, so that it supports the main colas. That also provides support for the rest of the plant. I also tie the main shoots to the scrog, thereby preventing them from tipping over. I direct the shoots through the holes as they grow. I don't wait for them to fill up the scrog before I flip the switch, because I also have to take the 12/12 stretch into account. I redirect the shoots into their own holes as I go along, thereby filling the entire grow area with buds. As long as the branches are soft, you can pretty much guide them wherever you want. I like to have the buds on top of the scrog but most of the plant still stays beneath. I then work my way from the bottom up, removing any parts of the plant that uses up more energy than it's worth (popcorn buds, branches that stretch too much etc.)
It's a gradual process, where I try to free up energy for the buds that are on top of the scrog. That allows them to grow bigger and fatter. The growth that remains in the shade is just using up energy that could be spent on the main colas but I also give the plant time to relocate most of the energy.
The light only penetrates so far. You can tell where the line between the active and passive area is, by looking under the scrog. Sometimes the line is more easy to spot when you wear sunglasses. The growth that is located within the well lit area stays, but I gradully remove the rest. I don't remove fan leaves because they can still photosynthesise for a while, until the plant draws the energy from them. They then go yellow and fall off. It's best to plan ahead, removing buds and branches that might end up using too much energy, as they appear. That way you'll make sure that the plant won't have time to invest energy into them.
You can do some preliminary LSTing in order to get the shoots where you want them. It's not necessary though, as long as you make sure that each main cola has enough space to grow (one per hole). I tuck the leaves underneath the scrog, or tie them down. If there are lots of leaves, I also sometimes tie them up in a bunch. That does not stop them from functioning.
As long as you have the right number of plants, they will eventually fill up the whole scrog. Ususually, there's no shortage of budding shoots. I top and train the plants in veg, in order to make sure of that. I also try to keep the structure very compact, with frequent nodes. That helps, when you are going for maximun yields. If you have fewer plants, you might have to do more training and leave more shoots on the plant. If you have lots of plants, you can go for a few strong main colas and gradully try to increase their size by freeing up energy for them.
If you spend some time in veg, training the plants, they usually end up with so many shoots that you can actually pick the strongest ones and remove the rest. It sort of depends on your style of growing but if every plants has, say 4-6 strong main colas, it will be enough to cover every square inch of the grow area when you add all the plants together.
I try to concentrate the energy towards these shoots, thereby allowing them to grow very big and wide. Picture one fat bud in every hole of the scrog, and you'll have a pretty good picture of how I do it.
I think that everyone has a slightly different approach, so you just have to figure what works best for your plants and the space that you have.
Thank you. Yea I am growing Wifi and Skywalker OG so I am hoping stretch is minimal. With this and each square being 3" x 3" in the 6' x 9' screen. I only keep 6 in flower to ensure we are way in our number range hence the reason for 15 gallon pots. Trying to pull number as if I were running more plants. Also since it gets real hot up where we are at, I try to keep the number of lights down as well. Like I said... the total vertical height that I have to play with is 2.5' - 3' so I want to maximize my output. That is alot of squares to fill...LOL Which if I did the math right that is 864 squares for potential buds.... man that is going to be alot of work...ahahahaha.
mattkilla420
Member
pruning in flower??
pruning in flower??
Hey kodiak i was wondering i just switched to flower 6 days ago and i re-read your entire thread and i realized i prob left way too much growth on the bottom. When is it too late to prune these away. When i took clones i cut a few of them but by the looks a think i should have gone higher. Heres a pic of the bigger two and their growth( I fimmed both of them) One was succesful (MGIRL2) and the other was not(MGIRL1). OH no it looks like male flowers right where i cut. Is the whole plant gonna be male)
MGIRL #1
MGIRL #2
pruning in flower??
Hey kodiak i was wondering i just switched to flower 6 days ago and i re-read your entire thread and i realized i prob left way too much growth on the bottom. When is it too late to prune these away. When i took clones i cut a few of them but by the looks a think i should have gone higher. Heres a pic of the bigger two and their growth( I fimmed both of them) One was succesful (MGIRL2) and the other was not(MGIRL1). OH no it looks like male flowers right where i cut. Is the whole plant gonna be male)
MGIRL #1
MGIRL #2
Hi Matt,
It's never too late to remove growth. You can start by removing the lowest pair of branches and then move your way up the stem, until you find nothing more to remove.
Looking at the pictures, I would say that you can remove 2-3 of the lowest pair of branches on MGIRL#1 and at least the very lowest pair of branches on MGIRL#2.
How much you should remove largely depends on how much light each plant is getting.
I cannot tell from the fuzzy picture but if your plant is a male, he will also produce nothing but male flowers. That is, unless he is a hermaprodite, and produces both male and female flowers.
It's never too late to remove growth. You can start by removing the lowest pair of branches and then move your way up the stem, until you find nothing more to remove.
Looking at the pictures, I would say that you can remove 2-3 of the lowest pair of branches on MGIRL#1 and at least the very lowest pair of branches on MGIRL#2.
How much you should remove largely depends on how much light each plant is getting.
I cannot tell from the fuzzy picture but if your plant is a male, he will also produce nothing but male flowers. That is, unless he is a hermaprodite, and produces both male and female flowers.
mattkilla420
Member
Thx brought thays what I needed to know. No sense in like buds forming at bottom when that energy can be used for ones at the top. Thanks holmes
Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2
Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2
No problem bro. If there's a lot of stem between the nodes, the branch is just wasting energy. Ideally, you should remove these branches before the plant spends any energy on them. The lower popcorn buds are also energy sinks, so they can be removed in order to free up more energy for the main colas.
Commendation 1St up & Advice Please for a first timer
Commendation 1St up & Advice Please for a first timer
Hope its OK to add to this Thread as I am new to the forum etiquette so hope I dont piss anyone off..
Thanks Kodiak for this awesome thread btw, The first section is also in a growing guide that I purchased online therefore I have read that part previously. I will commend you for all of your explaining and replying to peoples posts. Your dedication is exceptional so thank you....
To fill you in briefly I am almost finished 4th week of flower (Day 25) with an un-known strain for my first grow (and loving it I might add)
I was always interested in the Monster cropping section and have constructed a propagation bubbler similay to a EZ cloner set up & took my cuttings last night. As it was my first time cloning I was a little unsure of the length and size to cut them so some advice on my clones will be appreciated, I did use clonex gel & I have the nutrient mix with 1/2 strength Algen Extract & Roots Excel plus a water heater set to 75F or 25c and have constructed a makeshift humidity dome with a 20w CFL 4000k appx 1200 lumens running 24Hrs. Do you think they are too small to survive & ultimately revert to Veg...?
Throughout my first attempt I tried several techniques at training & pruning mainly HST at beginning FIM/Top & then LST later in veg. Veg time was 6 weeks total but to my detriment prob a week too long as I installed my scrog quite late & waited for them to reach the screen before the flip. About a week before 12/12 I FIM'd some of the tops & had some GREAT results but also some real obvious examples of F**k I missed see pics.
I have my conditions (temps, exhaust, air flow, feeding) pretty well dialed in now for the time being & hope with the promise of Flowering clones and a better understanding of the scrogging technique; my second effort at growing for high yields will be a lot more uniform canopy & I will also ramp up 2 sides with screen at a 45d angle to form a U type shape and really maximize the surface area and height restrictions as I only have 2.0m height total.
With 3000kw of light (5x600w Digi ballasts) w`cool-tubes and running MH/HPS at the diff stages of veg/flwr I will hopefully get to 1g/pw goal & maybe more as there is good light penetration & reflection. 3kw +20% for digital lights = 3.6kw/kg x 2.2lbs per kg = 7.92Lbs which I would be over the moon about - Ultimately my goal is the Magic 10LBS.
My last question if I may is about flowering & defoliating (a VERY VERY hot topic on this Forum & others) I have noticed. I've read a lot on the topic of late with various opinions from both sides of the fence & it seems the Jury is still out on this one. I defoliated mine very heavily a few times in Veg & once after stretch 13days. At first after the stretch de-fol I thought I had overdone it as they looked so scrawny/bare but to my surprise within 1 week they had pretty much produced about 1/2 the amount of fans as I just took off (big garbage bag full). I did notice flower production was put in slow motion for about 3-4 days (as it was a very heavy stripping) but they did benefit from the added light the bud sites lower down received and IMO did more good than harm. I did a moderate de-fol 2 nights ago and just cant seem to keep up with the crowding/shading of leaves above screen. Because the screen went in late I have semi decent growth below the screen and don't want to go hacking away at it in case of further stress & slowing of flower time however I do want to give the tops the majority of food, so I am stuck between further defoliating once a week where needed or just leaving them alone. What do you think would help my yield...?
Anyway I am relatively new to this growing hobby/community/obsession but am loving every minute of it as I have had a relationship with MJ for just on half my life now 16years so bout time it rewarded me for a change with awesome smoke & some spare change if it all goes well.....!!
Any advice or comments on where I went wrong 1st time or what I could do better 2nd time round especially with the monster clones will be a real help.
I have spent the time, $$ and effort both inside & out of the grow tent so I really want to get it down to an art form before I go switching up to harder better strains & going for a grow from seed. But if the whole Monster thing works out I'll stick with it.
Looking forward to any replies or comments, Here are a few pics first in veg (when I should have flipped) & now 25 days into flower; as you will see there is some nice colas forming & It is proving VERY hard not to get in there & fiddle around with my girls....
Happy Growing & Smoking Everyone.........!!!
Commendation 1St up & Advice Please for a first timer
Hope its OK to add to this Thread as I am new to the forum etiquette so hope I dont piss anyone off..
Thanks Kodiak for this awesome thread btw, The first section is also in a growing guide that I purchased online therefore I have read that part previously. I will commend you for all of your explaining and replying to peoples posts. Your dedication is exceptional so thank you....
To fill you in briefly I am almost finished 4th week of flower (Day 25) with an un-known strain for my first grow (and loving it I might add)
I was always interested in the Monster cropping section and have constructed a propagation bubbler similay to a EZ cloner set up & took my cuttings last night. As it was my first time cloning I was a little unsure of the length and size to cut them so some advice on my clones will be appreciated, I did use clonex gel & I have the nutrient mix with 1/2 strength Algen Extract & Roots Excel plus a water heater set to 75F or 25c and have constructed a makeshift humidity dome with a 20w CFL 4000k appx 1200 lumens running 24Hrs. Do you think they are too small to survive & ultimately revert to Veg...?Throughout my first attempt I tried several techniques at training & pruning mainly HST at beginning FIM/Top & then LST later in veg. Veg time was 6 weeks total but to my detriment prob a week too long as I installed my scrog quite late & waited for them to reach the screen before the flip. About a week before 12/12 I FIM'd some of the tops & had some GREAT results but also some real obvious examples of F**k I missed see pics.
I have my conditions (temps, exhaust, air flow, feeding) pretty well dialed in now for the time being & hope with the promise of Flowering clones and a better understanding of the scrogging technique; my second effort at growing for high yields will be a lot more uniform canopy & I will also ramp up 2 sides with screen at a 45d angle to form a U type shape and really maximize the surface area and height restrictions as I only have 2.0m height total.
With 3000kw of light (5x600w Digi ballasts) w`cool-tubes and running MH/HPS at the diff stages of veg/flwr I will hopefully get to 1g/pw goal & maybe more as there is good light penetration & reflection. 3kw +20% for digital lights = 3.6kw/kg x 2.2lbs per kg = 7.92Lbs which I would be over the moon about - Ultimately my goal is the Magic 10LBS.
My last question if I may is about flowering & defoliating (a VERY VERY hot topic on this Forum & others) I have noticed. I've read a lot on the topic of late with various opinions from both sides of the fence & it seems the Jury is still out on this one. I defoliated mine very heavily a few times in Veg & once after stretch 13days. At first after the stretch de-fol I thought I had overdone it as they looked so scrawny/bare but to my surprise within 1 week they had pretty much produced about 1/2 the amount of fans as I just took off (big garbage bag full). I did notice flower production was put in slow motion for about 3-4 days (as it was a very heavy stripping) but they did benefit from the added light the bud sites lower down received and IMO did more good than harm. I did a moderate de-fol 2 nights ago and just cant seem to keep up with the crowding/shading of leaves above screen. Because the screen went in late I have semi decent growth below the screen and don't want to go hacking away at it in case of further stress & slowing of flower time however I do want to give the tops the majority of food, so I am stuck between further defoliating once a week where needed or just leaving them alone. What do you think would help my yield...?
Anyway I am relatively new to this growing hobby/community/obsession but am loving every minute of it as I have had a relationship with MJ for just on half my life now 16years so bout time it rewarded me for a change with awesome smoke & some spare change if it all goes well.....!!
Any advice or comments on where I went wrong 1st time or what I could do better 2nd time round especially with the monster clones will be a real help.
I have spent the time, $$ and effort both inside & out of the grow tent so I really want to get it down to an art form before I go switching up to harder better strains & going for a grow from seed. But if the whole Monster thing works out I'll stick with it.
Looking forward to any replies or comments, Here are a few pics first in veg (when I should have flipped) & now 25 days into flower; as you will see there is some nice colas forming & It is proving VERY hard not to get in there & fiddle around with my girls....
Happy Growing & Smoking Everyone.........!!!
Attachments
To fill you in briefly I am almost finished 4th week of flower (Day 25) with an un-known strain for my first grow (and loving it I might add)
Some more pics of Propagation Bubbler.
Stay Safe everyone...!!
Thanks. Any addition to this thread is always welcome. Especially if it can be of help to other members.
Great work there AcesBasis
Your plants look awesome.
Your setup seems great and the stuff you mentioned about the bubbler is also ok. I can see that you didn't cut any corners or costs. That's a good idea because if you do it right, you only have to do it once.
It's best not to make the clones too short. Make the cut diagonal, so that it runs across the stem. This will increase the surface area that is capable of absorbing water and nutrients. Adding the rooting hormones can't hurt. I also do that with my cloning bubbler. Clones usually root within 7-10 days. It might take a little bit longer for the flowering clones to revert back into veg, but at least they will remain as healthy as possible during the process. Not all of them will revert but some probably will. Cannabis is an annual plant, so the clones are usually quite reluctant to start growing again.
I don't think that your clones are too small, they are probably just the right size.
A friend of mine just tested something with flowering clones that might come in handy. He removed all but the top bud on some clones and left the flowers alone on the rest. The plants that had the flowers removed struggled and died, while the plants that were left alone rooted.
Regarding the defoliation, I'm not a big fan of it because I have tried both methods and the plants produce bigger buds when I leave them alone. Some people swear by it but perhaps some plants like it better than others. It is, however, good to keep in mind that some of the light passes through the leaves, although we can't see it. That is why the lower leaves stay healthy. Also, when you remove leaves, the plant will try to replace them. That's a lot of energy going into leaves, instead of bud. Some of the surplus energy is also stored in the leaves for later use, namely during the later stages of flowering. When you remove the leaves, you remove "power plants" as well as the "fat" that the plant has stored up.
I think that the idea is that the buds grow larger when they get more light. I don't think that it's that simple because the larger fan leaves only have one function, and that is to produce energy for the plant, and therefore the buds in flowering. The smaller leaves on the bud just provide them with a little bit of energy locally. The larger fan leaves supply energy to the roots. Also, nutrients and other components have to be broken down and turned into sugars, proteins etc. before the plant can use them. That mostly takes place in the leaves. The energy is then transported to the roots, where it is pooled, before it is sent to other areas of the plant. Some people seem to be under the impression that nutrients can used directly by the plants. That is incorrect. They are the components that are used to create the sugars and other molecules, in combination with other environmental factors.
The larger fan leaves also have the greatest surface area and the greatest concentration of chlorophyll, which is used in photosynthesis. The plant needs them. That is why you see bud leaf turn into fan leaves when they are removed. The plant keeps growing them back, so they are obviously needed. At some point I just realized that I'm constantly handicapping the plant by removing the leaves and that a lot of energy is wasted on replacing parts that should have been left alone in the first place. When the leaves are no longer needed, the plant will draw the energy from them and they wither and die.
If you give the plants time to invest energy into leaves, that are later removed, you also waste that energy. You might see some accelerated growth as a result of defoliation but most of that growth will be in the form of new leaves, meant to replace the ones that are lost. The buds still keep growing, and might even get a small boost of growth hormones as a result of it, but the fact remains that you have also cut away a large portion of the stored energy and the growth that produces it.
Also, I see a lot of fat buds forming in the shade as well, so I'm not so sure that they really need all the light. The reason why the lower buds stay small has to do with apical dominance and suppressive hormones, that are sent down from the dominant shoots. The lower buds don't seem to pack on much more weight when you remove leaves and allow the light to hit them. They only grow large when you remove all the top shoots, thereby cancelling out the apical dominance.
I remove the lower shoots because the plant spends too much energy on them. The plant sends growth hormones to the shoots that are in the shade, causing them to elongate. That means that energy is wasted on growing stems. That is why you want most of the shoots to be within the well lit area. It's not so much that they need direct light, but that the energy distribution becomes more efficient.
Most of the things on plants are determined genetically, like bud size and density. That also goes for trichome formation and potency. You can't get something that is not in the genetic code, nor can plants be pushed beyond their capasity.
You would be better off searching for a plant that produces massive buds, than trying to manipulate a lesser plant into doing the same. All plants are different. I do a lot of breeding, so I also see a great number of plants. They all grow in the same environment but some are more productive than others. I look for plants with good structure and massive, dense buds that are covered in trichomes. I then breed them to similar plants in order to get even better plants. Selective breeding is the key to finding the plant that produces the most. Then you don't have to remove growth etc. because the plant does just fine on its own. High calyx-to-leaf ratios is what you need indoors. Some plants are ok but nothing special. Some plants are runts. Some plants have great qualities but the I look for the unqiue 5%-10% of the plants that exceptional. I start out with populations of 50 plants and then narrow down the search. I keep a strict criteria for selecting plants. I usually end up breeding 5-10 plants, of which 5 are exceptionally good and the rest are pretty good but mostly just tag along for the ride because I don't want to waste any space in the grow room. I then grow out the new crosses and the selection process starts all over again.
This is what I have observed but there's always room for discussion.
I did read some studies on fruit trees, where they defoliated the plant almost completely at the right time, which then gave them slightly more fruit. Still, there are no guarantees that it will work for all plants. They are all quite different and function in different ways. Some plants even die from direct sunlight etc.
Great work there AcesBasis
Your plants look awesome. Your setup seems great and the stuff you mentioned about the bubbler is also ok. I can see that you didn't cut any corners or costs. That's a good idea because if you do it right, you only have to do it once.
It's best not to make the clones too short. Make the cut diagonal, so that it runs across the stem. This will increase the surface area that is capable of absorbing water and nutrients. Adding the rooting hormones can't hurt. I also do that with my cloning bubbler. Clones usually root within 7-10 days. It might take a little bit longer for the flowering clones to revert back into veg, but at least they will remain as healthy as possible during the process. Not all of them will revert but some probably will. Cannabis is an annual plant, so the clones are usually quite reluctant to start growing again.
I don't think that your clones are too small, they are probably just the right size.
A friend of mine just tested something with flowering clones that might come in handy. He removed all but the top bud on some clones and left the flowers alone on the rest. The plants that had the flowers removed struggled and died, while the plants that were left alone rooted.
Regarding the defoliation, I'm not a big fan of it because I have tried both methods and the plants produce bigger buds when I leave them alone. Some people swear by it but perhaps some plants like it better than others. It is, however, good to keep in mind that some of the light passes through the leaves, although we can't see it. That is why the lower leaves stay healthy. Also, when you remove leaves, the plant will try to replace them. That's a lot of energy going into leaves, instead of bud. Some of the surplus energy is also stored in the leaves for later use, namely during the later stages of flowering. When you remove the leaves, you remove "power plants" as well as the "fat" that the plant has stored up.
I think that the idea is that the buds grow larger when they get more light. I don't think that it's that simple because the larger fan leaves only have one function, and that is to produce energy for the plant, and therefore the buds in flowering. The smaller leaves on the bud just provide them with a little bit of energy locally. The larger fan leaves supply energy to the roots. Also, nutrients and other components have to be broken down and turned into sugars, proteins etc. before the plant can use them. That mostly takes place in the leaves. The energy is then transported to the roots, where it is pooled, before it is sent to other areas of the plant. Some people seem to be under the impression that nutrients can used directly by the plants. That is incorrect. They are the components that are used to create the sugars and other molecules, in combination with other environmental factors.
The larger fan leaves also have the greatest surface area and the greatest concentration of chlorophyll, which is used in photosynthesis. The plant needs them. That is why you see bud leaf turn into fan leaves when they are removed. The plant keeps growing them back, so they are obviously needed. At some point I just realized that I'm constantly handicapping the plant by removing the leaves and that a lot of energy is wasted on replacing parts that should have been left alone in the first place. When the leaves are no longer needed, the plant will draw the energy from them and they wither and die.
If you give the plants time to invest energy into leaves, that are later removed, you also waste that energy. You might see some accelerated growth as a result of defoliation but most of that growth will be in the form of new leaves, meant to replace the ones that are lost. The buds still keep growing, and might even get a small boost of growth hormones as a result of it, but the fact remains that you have also cut away a large portion of the stored energy and the growth that produces it.
Also, I see a lot of fat buds forming in the shade as well, so I'm not so sure that they really need all the light. The reason why the lower buds stay small has to do with apical dominance and suppressive hormones, that are sent down from the dominant shoots. The lower buds don't seem to pack on much more weight when you remove leaves and allow the light to hit them. They only grow large when you remove all the top shoots, thereby cancelling out the apical dominance.
I remove the lower shoots because the plant spends too much energy on them. The plant sends growth hormones to the shoots that are in the shade, causing them to elongate. That means that energy is wasted on growing stems. That is why you want most of the shoots to be within the well lit area. It's not so much that they need direct light, but that the energy distribution becomes more efficient.
Most of the things on plants are determined genetically, like bud size and density. That also goes for trichome formation and potency. You can't get something that is not in the genetic code, nor can plants be pushed beyond their capasity.
You would be better off searching for a plant that produces massive buds, than trying to manipulate a lesser plant into doing the same. All plants are different. I do a lot of breeding, so I also see a great number of plants. They all grow in the same environment but some are more productive than others. I look for plants with good structure and massive, dense buds that are covered in trichomes. I then breed them to similar plants in order to get even better plants. Selective breeding is the key to finding the plant that produces the most. Then you don't have to remove growth etc. because the plant does just fine on its own. High calyx-to-leaf ratios is what you need indoors. Some plants are ok but nothing special. Some plants are runts. Some plants have great qualities but the I look for the unqiue 5%-10% of the plants that exceptional. I start out with populations of 50 plants and then narrow down the search. I keep a strict criteria for selecting plants. I usually end up breeding 5-10 plants, of which 5 are exceptionally good and the rest are pretty good but mostly just tag along for the ride because I don't want to waste any space in the grow room. I then grow out the new crosses and the selection process starts all over again.
This is what I have observed but there's always room for discussion.
I did read some studies on fruit trees, where they defoliated the plant almost completely at the right time, which then gave them slightly more fruit. Still, there are no guarantees that it will work for all plants. They are all quite different and function in different ways. Some plants even die from direct sunlight etc.
Thanks for the reply Kodiak
Thanks for the reply Kodiak
Hi Kodiak,
Thanks for the awesome reply, very informative & valuable information that makes it easier to know what to look for & when to apply it, I cut down your reply a bit above to raise some of your good points IMO & hope you can reply at will.
I saw the clones were drooping the next morning and the lower bud/leaf was wilting so I removed & the next night they were perky & looked healthy but I have left the top flower & the one larger cutting I tried have left more at top. Can I ask how important is the ph of the bubbler? should I check it regularly & adjust; also change the mix weekly.? If some don't make it can I take clones from the healthy ones once they have reverted to full veg & growing well & do you think that will screw with the genetics of the new clones too much...?
In respect to the de-fol argument I do believe it is necessary in veg a few times early as it will allow the plant to grow new shoots rapidly and will allow you to fill the screen quicker. Also node spacing will be reduced allowing for bigger denser buds later on. The key to the whole de-fol argument is timing as you mentioned towards the end of your reply. I believe with a few good timed de-fol sessions before flip, once after stretch & most flower production has ceased prior to them really bulking out & then that's it, let the plant/nature do the rest.
I also would not take all the smaller Fans, only the ones that are big/old with deep purlple stems & have provided most of the sugars & proteins stored up and mainly if they are shaded or bushing out other good areas, Small doses relatively frequent rather than shocking them all at once. I think Leaving some of the smaller ones which eventually grow larger help to avoid diverting bud leaf having to change its purpose & not supply the energy needed to that area of the flower. I mean in a good set up when all things are optimum the plant produces a hell of a lot of leaves & they aren't definitely ALL necessary IMO.
In regards to what the plants need to grow well & uptake nutes, transfer of energy & pooling I agree that the fans/leaves do this job too. Do you believe in providing other carbo's/foods in flower stage such as HG Top Booster and at what week, I know you are supposed to introduce the pot ash fertz in early flower but prior to top boosting via KB dry GH or SP satchets HG in final 2-3 weeks do you advise anything for where I am at now the stage in between.
I will remove the lower suckers and try to lollipop the lower branches below screen that are still producing more than fluff in an attempt to concentrate on the top colas, again spacing out a few days as not to shock too much now in flower so hope it will go well.
As for the Genetic Breeding its obvious that you have considerable experience with growing & if you can point me out to a good thread on how to attempt it or more info on how you cross breed it would be appreciated. There is a section in the guide I DL (which also has this thread) that mentions it so i'll start there on the topic. I do not fully understand the concept you mentioned about the starting with 50 plants etc. are they all the same strain? do they come from other strains or popped from seed? Anyhow i'll pick it up, I have heard that White Widow x Big Bud is a good strain for high yields do you recommend any thing else? Ultimately I want to order some seed & go from scratch as I am not sure what have in there atm.
Thanks for your help & effort as I mentioned in my last post, it really helps having forums like these available, just hope they arent monitored by authorities.... Hahaha
Happy toking/cultivating
AcesBasis
Thanks for the reply Kodiak
Hi Kodiak,
Thanks for the awesome reply, very informative & valuable information that makes it easier to know what to look for & when to apply it, I cut down your reply a bit above to raise some of your good points IMO & hope you can reply at will.
I saw the clones were drooping the next morning and the lower bud/leaf was wilting so I removed & the next night they were perky & looked healthy but I have left the top flower & the one larger cutting I tried have left more at top. Can I ask how important is the ph of the bubbler? should I check it regularly & adjust; also change the mix weekly.? If some don't make it can I take clones from the healthy ones once they have reverted to full veg & growing well & do you think that will screw with the genetics of the new clones too much...?
In respect to the de-fol argument I do believe it is necessary in veg a few times early as it will allow the plant to grow new shoots rapidly and will allow you to fill the screen quicker. Also node spacing will be reduced allowing for bigger denser buds later on. The key to the whole de-fol argument is timing as you mentioned towards the end of your reply. I believe with a few good timed de-fol sessions before flip, once after stretch & most flower production has ceased prior to them really bulking out & then that's it, let the plant/nature do the rest.
I also would not take all the smaller Fans, only the ones that are big/old with deep purlple stems & have provided most of the sugars & proteins stored up and mainly if they are shaded or bushing out other good areas, Small doses relatively frequent rather than shocking them all at once. I think Leaving some of the smaller ones which eventually grow larger help to avoid diverting bud leaf having to change its purpose & not supply the energy needed to that area of the flower. I mean in a good set up when all things are optimum the plant produces a hell of a lot of leaves & they aren't definitely ALL necessary IMO.
In regards to what the plants need to grow well & uptake nutes, transfer of energy & pooling I agree that the fans/leaves do this job too. Do you believe in providing other carbo's/foods in flower stage such as HG Top Booster and at what week, I know you are supposed to introduce the pot ash fertz in early flower but prior to top boosting via KB dry GH or SP satchets HG in final 2-3 weeks do you advise anything for where I am at now the stage in between.
I will remove the lower suckers and try to lollipop the lower branches below screen that are still producing more than fluff in an attempt to concentrate on the top colas, again spacing out a few days as not to shock too much now in flower so hope it will go well.
As for the Genetic Breeding its obvious that you have considerable experience with growing & if you can point me out to a good thread on how to attempt it or more info on how you cross breed it would be appreciated. There is a section in the guide I DL (which also has this thread) that mentions it so i'll start there on the topic. I do not fully understand the concept you mentioned about the starting with 50 plants etc. are they all the same strain? do they come from other strains or popped from seed? Anyhow i'll pick it up, I have heard that White Widow x Big Bud is a good strain for high yields do you recommend any thing else? Ultimately I want to order some seed & go from scratch as I am not sure what have in there atm.
Thanks for your help & effort as I mentioned in my last post, it really helps having forums like these available, just hope they arent monitored by authorities.... Hahaha
Happy toking/cultivating
AcesBasis
walindour
Active member
Hell yeah. I love this place. Aces, you asked the exact question I came here to research concerning defoliation in flower. I stripped a ton of fan leaves off at week 1 to give some breathing room in my vert scrog. At the end of week 2 it is a jungle in there again. I had a plant hermi on me last go around and I wondered if I tempted the switch by being too heavy handed with pruning in bloom.
Kodak, your reasoning about defoliation and awesome explanation of what is going on during flowering is rockin. This was exactly the info I was hoping to find. Thank you both.
Peace,
wali
Kodak, your reasoning about defoliation and awesome explanation of what is going on during flowering is rockin. This was exactly the info I was hoping to find. Thank you both.
Peace,
wali
Great thread Kodiak. You're an inspiration to us all with that highly descriptive thread.
I've never trained my plants before but I am definitely going to try it in my next crop. I'm growing in hydro so LST is not suitable as there is nowhere to tie the plants down to. Also I have limited vertical space so I am thinking of topping the plants. However my question is, in your opinion what is better - topping or FIMing? The answer should be based on overall yield and recovery time, as well as any other factors you may think of. Thanks
I've never trained my plants before but I am definitely going to try it in my next crop. I'm growing in hydro so LST is not suitable as there is nowhere to tie the plants down to. Also I have limited vertical space so I am thinking of topping the plants. However my question is, in your opinion what is better - topping or FIMing? The answer should be based on overall yield and recovery time, as well as any other factors you may think of. Thanks
Thanks for contributing to the thread guys. These types of discussion can be very fruitful and it's always fun to talk shop.
Yeah, you have to remove some of the lower leaves on the clone because it has no roots, and can't therefore support a lot of growth. Don't remove too much though as the clone can also use the leaves as food until it roots. As usual, it's all about finding the balance that works. That is why I never remove a lot of growth in one go. Instead, I remove the growth gradually and allow the plants/clones to adapt.
You should adjust the pH if needed. pH is always important but I use regular tap water for my cloning bubbler. The water quality in my area is quite good, so I never have any problems but if you have access to spring water, it's surely the better choice. Tap water contains chlorine, among other things. Usually, there's also a fair bit of calcium in the tap water. It will accumulate on the leaves of the clone, leaving a white residue. The mineral content of the water determines the "hardness" of it. "Soft" water is better for plants because it's easier to transport around than "hard" water.
You should change out the water as often as possible. That depends on how large the reservoir is and how good your tap water is. If the bubbler is small, I would change out the water every other day and if it's larger, you might get away with changing it twice a week.
You can take clones from plants or clones at any time. It won't mess with the genetics of the plant because that's hardcoded into every tissue. The genetic makeup of the plant never changes, just the phenotypical expression of those genes. There's no guarantee that they will root though. Clones that are taken from a mother plant, that is still in the vegetative stage, also have the greatest chance of making it. If you want to take clones from a revegged flowering clone, you might want to wait untill it shows new vegetative growth. If the revegged plant has successfully reverted back to the vegetative stage, the clones will also root faster.
Yeah, If you top and LST the plant properly, you don't have to remove healthy leaves during flowering. You'll get very dense bushes that fan out properly, with very tight nodes (3cm / 1 inch apart). I tie down anything that streches too much and then alternate between topping and LSTing, until I have a plant that is basically nothing but budding nodes. Stems are wasted space. I don't remove any leaves just for the sake of defoliating the plant. I remove branches (and therefore leaves) in order to shape the structure of the plant. That is why the main shoot has to be removed and also why the dominant shoots that follow, have to be tied down, in order to make room for even more shoots. The only leaves that I remove later on, are the ones that go partly yellow but never seem to die. They are wasting precious energy because the plant keeps feeding these leaves resources, although they are not functioning at an optimal level. I usually wait for the green light from the plant, before I remove leaves. The ones that are healthy, are also being used, so there's no need remove them in my opinion.
I'm not saying that there is only one truth here, as all plants are different and so is every grow room.
Perhaps not. That sort depends on the structure of the plant and your growing methods. I often remove the lower growth, in order to push the production towards the top of the plant, where the dominant shoots are located. I don't however remove fan leaves that are in the well lit area, because they are suppling the plant with a lot of energy. Some plants form more leaves than others. That is why we need a high calyx-to-leaf ratio indoors. Plants that can survive with fewer leaves and grow more bud instead. It also depends on how large the roots are. If the plant has a large root system, it will also be able to support more leaves. If the leaves are green, they are also healthy and being used by the plant. Then it's better to tie or tuck down the leaves, until they are no longer needed. That way, your plant will have a huge energy reserve, that is then used during the later stages of flowering.
I use the complete lineup of BioBizz liquid organic nutes as well as some other stuff. That includes Grow and Bloom, of course, as well as root stimulators (RootJuice), growth hormones (Alg-A-Mic), Floral boosters (TopMax), micronutrient/tracemetal supplements (BioHeaven), as well as soil improvers (a mix of liquid humus and beneficial organic micro-organism). I also add some blood meal and guano to the soil, which keeps the plants well fed for the first weeks of vegetative growth.
Outdoors, I use my own homemade organic compost. It's rocket fuel for plants. There's nothin like it really. Not only do the plants grow faster and larger, but the fruit also increases in size dramatically. That goes for all plants, including vegetables and berries. I get huge strawberries with this stuff. It's also a great way to recycle organic waste. I add a lot of stuff to the compost, like fresh sea weed/kelp, ash, sawdust (captures moisture), sea shells and whatever else I can find in nature that might provide a boost.
I used to have access to spores from symbiotic root fungi, called Myciorrhiza, which also provided a huge boost. I can't get in anymore though, which is a shame. It latches on to the roots and exchanges nutrients with the plant. It also improves on root structure by fanning out into microscopic filaments, thereby increasing root mass. Studies have shown that the symbiotic fungi makes plants grow twice as large in half the time.
I start by growing out 50 plants from seeds, usually several different strains. I look for good females and males among the plants and keep a strict selection criteria, in order the ensure that I only breed great plants. I remove all plants that show wierd, stunted or mutated growth. Some mutants are good though, as they can basically take a genetic leap in different directions. Someties that's a good thing, if for example, the plant shows very heavy trichme density etc. Mutant plants can sometimes be "short cuts" to greater traits. I have found that mutated plants will return back to normal plants within 2 generations, as long as you select the normal offspring among their mutated sisters. That way, you'll get normal plants with similar traits as the mutated mother. It's as if the plants "repair" their own DNA back to normal over a few generations.
I also remove all hermies becasue they just add up to more hermies in the offspring. I rather just eliminate the problem from the start, than having to deal with it further down the line, even if some of the hermie plants are great. So far, I have seen zero hermies in my own seed lines. That's largely thanks to the strict selection criteria. Just a quick note on them here. Hermies have the trait coded into their genes, so you can't "turn" a plant into a hermie, because it was a hermie all along. Stable female plants will not turn, even under stress. That is why I stress-test all the plants that I intend to breed. In order to stress them, I go against the book and overfeed, overwater, etc. That smokes out the hermies from the 50 plants that I have. The growth hormones in the Alg-A-Mic also push the hermies towards the sex-reversal, making them easier to spot. In stable plants, it just boost the production and makes them grow faster. It's basically steriods for plants. The plants that can take the battery of stress-tests, while remaining sexually stable, are then allowed to grow healthy again for seed production. I start looking for good traits among the females as they begin flowering. Selecting the females is quite easy compared to selcting males.
I have noticed that every pack of seeds comes with slightly different plants. Not only different phenotypes but also different in terms of how well they represent the parental plants. 10 seeds of strain X might not yield 10 spectacular plants, even though it's known to be great most of the time. There is genetic variance in every pack and some individuals are better than others. They are, in fact, all different to some degree. You might also run into the occasional anomaly, which can be better or worse than the original parents. That is why I grow 50 plants at the time, in order to find the best representatives of each strain. I usually start twice as many seeds as I need plants, as the selection process starts as soon as the seeds are sprouting tap roots. I make detailed notes on every stage of development for future reference and then select plants that seem suitable for each other in future projects. I take into account all the different traits and then try to figure out what goes best with what. Combining complementing traits of two different plants might give you exactly what you are looking for.
Some traits are however, hidden, and that is something that we simply cannot know about beforehand. Some traits are dominant, some recessive and some co-dominant.
It's slow, time-consuming work but it all pays off in the end. Besides, it's not work if you're having fun, right?
The traits that I look for in the females are (in no particular order):
- Genetic stability
- High resistance to environmental stress and fluctuation
- Good health
- Vigorous growth
- Good plant structure
- Heavy trichome production
- Good high (potency but also experience and effect)
- Nice scents
- Nice taste
- Colors
- Frequent nodes
- Tight buds
- Large Buds
- High calyx-to-leaf ratios
- Outdoors, I also look for plants with a high resistance to mold.
Some plants fill some of the criteria but may be lacking in other areas. The best plants fill every criteria, and those are the plants that I'm looking for. I then breed them to other great plants from other seed projects, which results in even better offspring. They seem to get better all the time, as I keep the same strict selection criteria for every cross.
The high is naturally the most important thing but there are many types of highs. The cannabinoid profile of the plant can vary greately, depending on where it's originally from and what's coded into its genes. Some of the cannabinoids modulate the effects of THC, and can therefore dampen the high (CBD and THCV, for example). The experience itself is also important. Every plant provides a different type of high. Some are really nice and relaxing, while others can be less than ideal. A good high does not always mean the strongest high in my book. It's what you experience that counts.
Selecting the males is a bit more tricky. Basically, we are trying to pass on the traits of the female but we need males for that. That is why I look for "female traits" on the males. That does not mean hermie traits or something like that. They still have to be fully stable males. Again, all the male hermies are removed, as well as runts and other lesser plants.
The things that I look for in the male are (in no particular order):
- Genetic stability
- High resistance to environmental stress and fluctuation
- Good health
- Vigorous growth
- Good plant structure
- Nice scents (the "macho" males tend to smell worse)
- Colors
- Tight clusters of male flowers (affects the density of the bud in the female offspring)
- Possibly trichomes (I've seen a few males pack on trichs like females, while still remaining fully stable males).
It all depends on what you want to be expressed in the female offspring. Sometimes the "macho" males are the better option, as they can improve on plant structure and size. I still usually go for the males that I mistake for females at first, as long as they are true and stable males with zero hermie tendencies. These plants usually boost the scent and taste, sometimes even the trichome density.
I always pick the very best male candidate for the job, unless I find two equally good males but that is rarely the case. One is always slightly better than the other in some ways.
Plants that hermie on you were hermies all along, so it's better to find out sooner than later, before you use the plants to make more seeds. The trait is revealed when you put the plants under stress. Plants respond to wounding by releasing a chemical called jasmonic acid. It's a natural insecticide but it also causes stunted growth, as the plant enters "defence mode" and it becomes the highest priority until the threat is over. That is why you should remove only a little bit of growth at the time, as the response is proportionate to the amount of growth that is removed. Stress or no stress, hermies are still hermies and should not be bred or kept around as they will pollinate all the regular females and pass on the hermie trait.
I have observed three different forms of the hermie trait so far:
1. True Hermies - Plants that show an equal affinity for both sexes and produce both male and female flowers from the start, in equal proportions.
2. Perdominantly Female Hermies - Female plants that produce incomplete male pollen sacks, referred to as "bananas".
3. Predominantly Male Hermies - Male plants that produce either complete female flowers or female flowers with "bananas".
This has also lead me to belive that the sexual differentiation in cannabis plants might be more complex than just XX and XY.
Some say that male hermies are good to breed with but there's no evidence to support this assumption. I have come to the conclusion that hermies are always bad because they will pass on the trait to their offspring. Stable males and females do not. The hermie trait can be bred out of the strain but it takes a lot of time, so I rather just skip that and go with only stable plants. There are still a whole array of different kinds of plants, including resinous males, that can be used to improve on the stock.
The hermie plants that turn easily, with relatively low levels of stress, are not suitable for feminized crosses. You need to smoke out the hermies and then use stable females in order to make feminized seed. What you want is a very slight expression of the trait, that only appears as the result of extreme stress. That is why people use silver water to force out the bananas on females that were generally stable. If the hermie trait is only expressed when silver water is used, there's also a great chance that most of the feminized seeds will yield stable females under normal conditions. The other female in the cross would naturally also have to be very stable for good results.
I'm sure that there is some way of tying down the branches on your setup. You can always secure the gardening wire or string to something with duct tape. You can also use string that is weighed down by something heavy, like rocks or metal bolts or whatever. That will enable you to LST the plants. You can also tie branches and shoots together with gardening wire and LST that way. Anything is possible.
You can even LST without any string or wire at all, by training the shoots to make loops around other branches. Low-tech LSTing.
I think that you should always aim for FIM when you top. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Either way, you can always top the secondary shoots and get similar results.
Don't rule out Super Cropping. It might work best in this case. You don't actually remove anything, you just bend it out of the way. That gives you a lot of control over the shape of the plants. I've seen plants recover from 90 degree bends on the stem within a week. You can basically form a network of criss-crossing branches, in order to save space.
Training plants is a creative process and there are no set rules. Keep an open mind. You can apply one or several techniques in order to reach the result that you are looking for. Plants can be trained to grow into any size or shape with the right technique. Look at the plant and picture what it should look like and then apply the appropriate technique(s). Sometime you have to combine different techniques in order to get the most out of the plant.
It all depends on the structure of the plant and how it responds to the training. I top/FIM, tie down but also release the shoots in order to reshape it as it goes along. I then tie them down again, along with any new shoots that are stretching too tall. It's an ongoing process. I also train them in flowering if I have to. That's the beauty of LSTing, it causes no harm to the plant and can be done at any time.
The shoots will turn towards the light within 24 hours. It's amazing really. I also recommend that you use a scrog net. There's no reason not to. It's just a handy tool that you use while training the plants.
Yeah, you have to remove some of the lower leaves on the clone because it has no roots, and can't therefore support a lot of growth. Don't remove too much though as the clone can also use the leaves as food until it roots. As usual, it's all about finding the balance that works. That is why I never remove a lot of growth in one go. Instead, I remove the growth gradually and allow the plants/clones to adapt.
You should adjust the pH if needed. pH is always important but I use regular tap water for my cloning bubbler. The water quality in my area is quite good, so I never have any problems but if you have access to spring water, it's surely the better choice. Tap water contains chlorine, among other things. Usually, there's also a fair bit of calcium in the tap water. It will accumulate on the leaves of the clone, leaving a white residue. The mineral content of the water determines the "hardness" of it. "Soft" water is better for plants because it's easier to transport around than "hard" water.
You should change out the water as often as possible. That depends on how large the reservoir is and how good your tap water is. If the bubbler is small, I would change out the water every other day and if it's larger, you might get away with changing it twice a week.
You can take clones from plants or clones at any time. It won't mess with the genetics of the plant because that's hardcoded into every tissue. The genetic makeup of the plant never changes, just the phenotypical expression of those genes. There's no guarantee that they will root though. Clones that are taken from a mother plant, that is still in the vegetative stage, also have the greatest chance of making it. If you want to take clones from a revegged flowering clone, you might want to wait untill it shows new vegetative growth. If the revegged plant has successfully reverted back to the vegetative stage, the clones will also root faster.
Yeah, If you top and LST the plant properly, you don't have to remove healthy leaves during flowering. You'll get very dense bushes that fan out properly, with very tight nodes (3cm / 1 inch apart). I tie down anything that streches too much and then alternate between topping and LSTing, until I have a plant that is basically nothing but budding nodes. Stems are wasted space. I don't remove any leaves just for the sake of defoliating the plant. I remove branches (and therefore leaves) in order to shape the structure of the plant. That is why the main shoot has to be removed and also why the dominant shoots that follow, have to be tied down, in order to make room for even more shoots. The only leaves that I remove later on, are the ones that go partly yellow but never seem to die. They are wasting precious energy because the plant keeps feeding these leaves resources, although they are not functioning at an optimal level. I usually wait for the green light from the plant, before I remove leaves. The ones that are healthy, are also being used, so there's no need remove them in my opinion.
I'm not saying that there is only one truth here, as all plants are different and so is every grow room.
Perhaps not. That sort depends on the structure of the plant and your growing methods. I often remove the lower growth, in order to push the production towards the top of the plant, where the dominant shoots are located. I don't however remove fan leaves that are in the well lit area, because they are suppling the plant with a lot of energy. Some plants form more leaves than others. That is why we need a high calyx-to-leaf ratio indoors. Plants that can survive with fewer leaves and grow more bud instead. It also depends on how large the roots are. If the plant has a large root system, it will also be able to support more leaves. If the leaves are green, they are also healthy and being used by the plant. Then it's better to tie or tuck down the leaves, until they are no longer needed. That way, your plant will have a huge energy reserve, that is then used during the later stages of flowering.
I use the complete lineup of BioBizz liquid organic nutes as well as some other stuff. That includes Grow and Bloom, of course, as well as root stimulators (RootJuice), growth hormones (Alg-A-Mic), Floral boosters (TopMax), micronutrient/tracemetal supplements (BioHeaven), as well as soil improvers (a mix of liquid humus and beneficial organic micro-organism). I also add some blood meal and guano to the soil, which keeps the plants well fed for the first weeks of vegetative growth.
Outdoors, I use my own homemade organic compost. It's rocket fuel for plants. There's nothin like it really. Not only do the plants grow faster and larger, but the fruit also increases in size dramatically. That goes for all plants, including vegetables and berries. I get huge strawberries with this stuff. It's also a great way to recycle organic waste. I add a lot of stuff to the compost, like fresh sea weed/kelp, ash, sawdust (captures moisture), sea shells and whatever else I can find in nature that might provide a boost.
I used to have access to spores from symbiotic root fungi, called Myciorrhiza, which also provided a huge boost. I can't get in anymore though, which is a shame. It latches on to the roots and exchanges nutrients with the plant. It also improves on root structure by fanning out into microscopic filaments, thereby increasing root mass. Studies have shown that the symbiotic fungi makes plants grow twice as large in half the time.
I start by growing out 50 plants from seeds, usually several different strains. I look for good females and males among the plants and keep a strict selection criteria, in order the ensure that I only breed great plants. I remove all plants that show wierd, stunted or mutated growth. Some mutants are good though, as they can basically take a genetic leap in different directions. Someties that's a good thing, if for example, the plant shows very heavy trichme density etc. Mutant plants can sometimes be "short cuts" to greater traits. I have found that mutated plants will return back to normal plants within 2 generations, as long as you select the normal offspring among their mutated sisters. That way, you'll get normal plants with similar traits as the mutated mother. It's as if the plants "repair" their own DNA back to normal over a few generations.
I also remove all hermies becasue they just add up to more hermies in the offspring. I rather just eliminate the problem from the start, than having to deal with it further down the line, even if some of the hermie plants are great. So far, I have seen zero hermies in my own seed lines. That's largely thanks to the strict selection criteria. Just a quick note on them here. Hermies have the trait coded into their genes, so you can't "turn" a plant into a hermie, because it was a hermie all along. Stable female plants will not turn, even under stress. That is why I stress-test all the plants that I intend to breed. In order to stress them, I go against the book and overfeed, overwater, etc. That smokes out the hermies from the 50 plants that I have. The growth hormones in the Alg-A-Mic also push the hermies towards the sex-reversal, making them easier to spot. In stable plants, it just boost the production and makes them grow faster. It's basically steriods for plants. The plants that can take the battery of stress-tests, while remaining sexually stable, are then allowed to grow healthy again for seed production. I start looking for good traits among the females as they begin flowering. Selecting the females is quite easy compared to selcting males.
I have noticed that every pack of seeds comes with slightly different plants. Not only different phenotypes but also different in terms of how well they represent the parental plants. 10 seeds of strain X might not yield 10 spectacular plants, even though it's known to be great most of the time. There is genetic variance in every pack and some individuals are better than others. They are, in fact, all different to some degree. You might also run into the occasional anomaly, which can be better or worse than the original parents. That is why I grow 50 plants at the time, in order to find the best representatives of each strain. I usually start twice as many seeds as I need plants, as the selection process starts as soon as the seeds are sprouting tap roots. I make detailed notes on every stage of development for future reference and then select plants that seem suitable for each other in future projects. I take into account all the different traits and then try to figure out what goes best with what. Combining complementing traits of two different plants might give you exactly what you are looking for.
Some traits are however, hidden, and that is something that we simply cannot know about beforehand. Some traits are dominant, some recessive and some co-dominant.
It's slow, time-consuming work but it all pays off in the end. Besides, it's not work if you're having fun, right?
The traits that I look for in the females are (in no particular order):
- Genetic stability
- High resistance to environmental stress and fluctuation
- Good health
- Vigorous growth
- Good plant structure
- Heavy trichome production
- Good high (potency but also experience and effect)
- Nice scents
- Nice taste
- Colors
- Frequent nodes
- Tight buds
- Large Buds
- High calyx-to-leaf ratios
- Outdoors, I also look for plants with a high resistance to mold.
Some plants fill some of the criteria but may be lacking in other areas. The best plants fill every criteria, and those are the plants that I'm looking for. I then breed them to other great plants from other seed projects, which results in even better offspring. They seem to get better all the time, as I keep the same strict selection criteria for every cross.
The high is naturally the most important thing but there are many types of highs. The cannabinoid profile of the plant can vary greately, depending on where it's originally from and what's coded into its genes. Some of the cannabinoids modulate the effects of THC, and can therefore dampen the high (CBD and THCV, for example). The experience itself is also important. Every plant provides a different type of high. Some are really nice and relaxing, while others can be less than ideal. A good high does not always mean the strongest high in my book. It's what you experience that counts.
Selecting the males is a bit more tricky. Basically, we are trying to pass on the traits of the female but we need males for that. That is why I look for "female traits" on the males. That does not mean hermie traits or something like that. They still have to be fully stable males. Again, all the male hermies are removed, as well as runts and other lesser plants.
The things that I look for in the male are (in no particular order):
- Genetic stability
- High resistance to environmental stress and fluctuation
- Good health
- Vigorous growth
- Good plant structure
- Nice scents (the "macho" males tend to smell worse)
- Colors
- Tight clusters of male flowers (affects the density of the bud in the female offspring)
- Possibly trichomes (I've seen a few males pack on trichs like females, while still remaining fully stable males).
It all depends on what you want to be expressed in the female offspring. Sometimes the "macho" males are the better option, as they can improve on plant structure and size. I still usually go for the males that I mistake for females at first, as long as they are true and stable males with zero hermie tendencies. These plants usually boost the scent and taste, sometimes even the trichome density.
I always pick the very best male candidate for the job, unless I find two equally good males but that is rarely the case. One is always slightly better than the other in some ways.
Plants that hermie on you were hermies all along, so it's better to find out sooner than later, before you use the plants to make more seeds. The trait is revealed when you put the plants under stress. Plants respond to wounding by releasing a chemical called jasmonic acid. It's a natural insecticide but it also causes stunted growth, as the plant enters "defence mode" and it becomes the highest priority until the threat is over. That is why you should remove only a little bit of growth at the time, as the response is proportionate to the amount of growth that is removed. Stress or no stress, hermies are still hermies and should not be bred or kept around as they will pollinate all the regular females and pass on the hermie trait.
I have observed three different forms of the hermie trait so far:
1. True Hermies - Plants that show an equal affinity for both sexes and produce both male and female flowers from the start, in equal proportions.
2. Perdominantly Female Hermies - Female plants that produce incomplete male pollen sacks, referred to as "bananas".
3. Predominantly Male Hermies - Male plants that produce either complete female flowers or female flowers with "bananas".
This has also lead me to belive that the sexual differentiation in cannabis plants might be more complex than just XX and XY.
Some say that male hermies are good to breed with but there's no evidence to support this assumption. I have come to the conclusion that hermies are always bad because they will pass on the trait to their offspring. Stable males and females do not. The hermie trait can be bred out of the strain but it takes a lot of time, so I rather just skip that and go with only stable plants. There are still a whole array of different kinds of plants, including resinous males, that can be used to improve on the stock.
The hermie plants that turn easily, with relatively low levels of stress, are not suitable for feminized crosses. You need to smoke out the hermies and then use stable females in order to make feminized seed. What you want is a very slight expression of the trait, that only appears as the result of extreme stress. That is why people use silver water to force out the bananas on females that were generally stable. If the hermie trait is only expressed when silver water is used, there's also a great chance that most of the feminized seeds will yield stable females under normal conditions. The other female in the cross would naturally also have to be very stable for good results.
I'm sure that there is some way of tying down the branches on your setup. You can always secure the gardening wire or string to something with duct tape. You can also use string that is weighed down by something heavy, like rocks or metal bolts or whatever. That will enable you to LST the plants. You can also tie branches and shoots together with gardening wire and LST that way. Anything is possible.
You can even LST without any string or wire at all, by training the shoots to make loops around other branches. Low-tech LSTing.
I think that you should always aim for FIM when you top. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Either way, you can always top the secondary shoots and get similar results.
Don't rule out Super Cropping. It might work best in this case. You don't actually remove anything, you just bend it out of the way. That gives you a lot of control over the shape of the plants. I've seen plants recover from 90 degree bends on the stem within a week. You can basically form a network of criss-crossing branches, in order to save space.
Training plants is a creative process and there are no set rules. Keep an open mind. You can apply one or several techniques in order to reach the result that you are looking for. Plants can be trained to grow into any size or shape with the right technique. Look at the plant and picture what it should look like and then apply the appropriate technique(s). Sometime you have to combine different techniques in order to get the most out of the plant.
It all depends on the structure of the plant and how it responds to the training. I top/FIM, tie down but also release the shoots in order to reshape it as it goes along. I then tie them down again, along with any new shoots that are stretching too tall. It's an ongoing process. I also train them in flowering if I have to. That's the beauty of LSTing, it causes no harm to the plant and can be done at any time.
The shoots will turn towards the light within 24 hours. It's amazing really. I also recommend that you use a scrog net. There's no reason not to. It's just a handy tool that you use while training the plants.
