A Complete Guide to Topping, Training and Pruning
- Thread starter Kodiak
- Start date
Wow Kodiak , Didn't realize you were still around here , haven't seen you posting much . great thread dude ... tremendous amount of info . This thread has been a Major help to me & i have linked it to many other growers here . A+ dude
Thanx alot dude
Thanx alot dude
Thanks. It's nice to hear that the guide is doing some good.
Yeah, I'm still around but I mostly tend to my own threads. I have less time to spend on this forum nowadays but I try to answer all the questions posted on my threads. Seems like there is less traffic on them now, probably becuase a lot of peope have already read the guides and their questions might already have answered.
Thanks for stopping by and keep it green.
K
Yeah, I'm still around but I mostly tend to my own threads. I have less time to spend on this forum nowadays but I try to answer all the questions posted on my threads. Seems like there is less traffic on them now, probably becuase a lot of peope have already read the guides and their questions might already have answered.
Thanks for stopping by and keep it green.
K
Posternuggbag
Member
very informative thank you!
lucky_luke
New member
I need some help about super cropping. The problem is, that my feminised Chemdog (from GHS) is under 12/12 fotoperiod from few days, but it doesn't show any signs of flowering, and still is growing up (faster than before!). I am worried, because there are only 30 cm that I can take up my HPS lamp, and probably I will go out of space soon.
Would it be better to do super cropping now, or should I wait, and do it when I can not take my HPS any higher? Will it be less stressful during switching time (plant still looks like veg, but the fotoperiod is 12/12) or during flowering?
Would it be better to do super cropping now, or should I wait, and do it when I can not take my HPS any higher? Will it be less stressful during switching time (plant still looks like veg, but the fotoperiod is 12/12) or during flowering?
Elsweeto
Member
I would do it now the sooner the better; normally I do this training in veg, so the plant is happy in flowering. The plant usually doubles in size maybe 3x. I'd supercrop all of the branches now and even doing this I'd suggest you get ready for some L.S.T. tie the branches down to the top of your pot so they have to grow back up this should help.
I agree with Elsweeto, you should super crop the plant now. You will probably have to do some LSTing as well in order to keep the plant in check. You will at least have to provide the super cropped branches with some kind of support, like string. The breaks will heal in the position that they are fixed in.
Stay with the 12/12 light schedule. It's not strange that you don't see any signs of flowering yet if the plant has only been in 12/12 for a few days. It takes roughly a week for them to adapt and start flowering. You should however still be able to see preflowers, unless the vegetative stage was very short.
Preflowers are a sign of sexual maturity and when they are showing, it also means that the plant is ready to flower. That is why it's a good idea to wait until you see preflowers before you put them under the 12/12 light schedule. This reduces the stretch as the plant has had time to prepare for flowering and everything is set when you flip the switch.
I'm not sure what light schedule you used for vegging but the problem with going from 24/0 or 20/4 directly to 12/12 is that the difference in hours of daylight is so long that you see an increased stretch as they reach for the light during the dark hours. If you decrease the daylight hours gradually, you will have time to train the plant as it grows. If you do it right, it will stop where you want it to.
You can install a scrog net above the canopy, that will make things easier. Feed the tops back under the scrog if you have to. That will keep them away from the HPS as they will make a loop around the scrog and head back up towards the light. You can also criss-cross the branches underneath the scrog net, so that the central branches emerge at the edges of the grow room and vice versa. That might actually help the plant to fill up the scrog more easily and it will also reduce the strech.
You didn't mention what lights you are using but with only 30cm to spare, you might run into heat problems during flowering. Burned tops is not something that you want. You should be able to keep your hand comfortably above the canopy. If the light burns your hand, it will also burn the buds.
If you run into heat problems that the plant cannot handle, you might want to consider getting a cooltube or an air-cooled hood, the latter is the better option in my opinion. The cooltube creates hot spots and works as a magnifying glass, burning the tops that are right underneath it. The air-cooled hood does a better job at dispersing the light over a greater surface area. This gives the plant more energy to work with and also reduces the ambient temperature in the grow room, as the light is more spread out. The fan that cools the light will also draw lots of CO2 into the grow room, which helps the plant grow. All the essential things that a plant needs can become limiting factors in the indoor environment. You just have to do your best to provide them with all that they need.
It's times like this that you have to get creative. Don't worry, the plant will most likely recover from anything that you do to it. They are very good at adapting to new conditions. It's not over until the plant is dead. I have trained tricky sativa plants during flowering that refused to stop growing with great results. The plants will always try to direct their shoots and leaves towards the light (phototrophism) in order to capture it. Use that to your advantage when you train your plants. The growth pattern is fairly predictable since you are working with a stationary light source.
Don't worry about how long it takes to plant to recover from the training. It will start flowering eventually because it has to when the light schedule is 12/12 or less. If the plant keeps growing, decrease the light schedule to 11/13. I wouldn't go much lower though.
You do have to watch the plant closely for hermie tendencies, since she is a feminized plant. They are made by allowing hermie females to pollinate themselves or other females. That's how you get 100% female offspring. Supercropping is more stressful for the plant than LSTing but in this case you might have to do both. It's unfortunate that you have to do everything at once during the light schdule switch because it increases the chance of triggering hermaphroditism. I'm not saying that you plant will hermie for sure, it's determined by her genes, but the chances are greater when you are dealing with feminized plants that are put under a lot of stress. You might however also have a stable feminized plant that will resist the condition. Difficult to say really. You just have to watch and see how it goes.
Best of luck to you.
Stay with the 12/12 light schedule. It's not strange that you don't see any signs of flowering yet if the plant has only been in 12/12 for a few days. It takes roughly a week for them to adapt and start flowering. You should however still be able to see preflowers, unless the vegetative stage was very short.
Preflowers are a sign of sexual maturity and when they are showing, it also means that the plant is ready to flower. That is why it's a good idea to wait until you see preflowers before you put them under the 12/12 light schedule. This reduces the stretch as the plant has had time to prepare for flowering and everything is set when you flip the switch.
I'm not sure what light schedule you used for vegging but the problem with going from 24/0 or 20/4 directly to 12/12 is that the difference in hours of daylight is so long that you see an increased stretch as they reach for the light during the dark hours. If you decrease the daylight hours gradually, you will have time to train the plant as it grows. If you do it right, it will stop where you want it to.
You can install a scrog net above the canopy, that will make things easier. Feed the tops back under the scrog if you have to. That will keep them away from the HPS as they will make a loop around the scrog and head back up towards the light. You can also criss-cross the branches underneath the scrog net, so that the central branches emerge at the edges of the grow room and vice versa. That might actually help the plant to fill up the scrog more easily and it will also reduce the strech.
You didn't mention what lights you are using but with only 30cm to spare, you might run into heat problems during flowering. Burned tops is not something that you want. You should be able to keep your hand comfortably above the canopy. If the light burns your hand, it will also burn the buds.
If you run into heat problems that the plant cannot handle, you might want to consider getting a cooltube or an air-cooled hood, the latter is the better option in my opinion. The cooltube creates hot spots and works as a magnifying glass, burning the tops that are right underneath it. The air-cooled hood does a better job at dispersing the light over a greater surface area. This gives the plant more energy to work with and also reduces the ambient temperature in the grow room, as the light is more spread out. The fan that cools the light will also draw lots of CO2 into the grow room, which helps the plant grow. All the essential things that a plant needs can become limiting factors in the indoor environment. You just have to do your best to provide them with all that they need.
It's times like this that you have to get creative. Don't worry, the plant will most likely recover from anything that you do to it. They are very good at adapting to new conditions. It's not over until the plant is dead. I have trained tricky sativa plants during flowering that refused to stop growing with great results. The plants will always try to direct their shoots and leaves towards the light (phototrophism) in order to capture it. Use that to your advantage when you train your plants. The growth pattern is fairly predictable since you are working with a stationary light source.
Don't worry about how long it takes to plant to recover from the training. It will start flowering eventually because it has to when the light schedule is 12/12 or less. If the plant keeps growing, decrease the light schedule to 11/13. I wouldn't go much lower though.
You do have to watch the plant closely for hermie tendencies, since she is a feminized plant. They are made by allowing hermie females to pollinate themselves or other females. That's how you get 100% female offspring. Supercropping is more stressful for the plant than LSTing but in this case you might have to do both. It's unfortunate that you have to do everything at once during the light schdule switch because it increases the chance of triggering hermaphroditism. I'm not saying that you plant will hermie for sure, it's determined by her genes, but the chances are greater when you are dealing with feminized plants that are put under a lot of stress. You might however also have a stable feminized plant that will resist the condition. Difficult to say really. You just have to watch and see how it goes.
Best of luck to you.
lucky_luke
New member
Thanks for all advices guys. My growbox dimensions are ~50x~60x~140 cm, I use quite good fans and ventilation, so there is a lot of air movement, the temperatures are not the problem in this case (I use a glass plate directly under my hps lamp to protect the plants from excessive heat). Yesterday I saw first female preflowers, and it was time for watering. I will try to train it by supercropping, even though there is hardly any space for that (the plant is really bushy!) and start LST training when the soil will become dry.
Elsweeto
Member
How tall is your plant? If it is more than 100cm i would be very aggressive with the super cropping maybe start at the bottom of the branches, wait till they heal and do another round closer to the top of the branch. I'm not sure if this will help but I think it will, maybe kodiak has more on this.
Yes definitely wait till the soil is dry before starting LST I made the mistake of doing it when wet, it didn't work out well
Sounds like a good plan.
Yeah, I would probably do some heavy training on her as well. I would probably super crop her once in order to get the thicker branches bent down to a lower level and then move over to LSTing + Scrogging. The growing shoots are quite flexible and easy to work with.
Perhaps you could give us more information because it's difficult to give advice when we don't have all the facts.
- HPS wattage + final distance from canopy
- Cooling solutions
- Temperature & Humidity (measured at the canopy. That's where it counts the most)
- Plant height
- Pot size and height
140cm is not a whole lot of headroom, so you might be looking at a lot of training but nothing's impossible. You can always tie down the branches as they grow if they get too close to the light. Scrogging the plant will make things easier.
Perhaps you could post some pics of your plant and your setup. It's easier to come up with ideas if we can see what it all looks like.
Yeah, I would probably do some heavy training on her as well. I would probably super crop her once in order to get the thicker branches bent down to a lower level and then move over to LSTing + Scrogging. The growing shoots are quite flexible and easy to work with.
Perhaps you could give us more information because it's difficult to give advice when we don't have all the facts.
- HPS wattage + final distance from canopy
- Cooling solutions
- Temperature & Humidity (measured at the canopy. That's where it counts the most)
- Plant height
- Pot size and height
140cm is not a whole lot of headroom, so you might be looking at a lot of training but nothing's impossible. You can always tie down the branches as they grow if they get too close to the light. Scrogging the plant will make things easier.
Perhaps you could post some pics of your plant and your setup. It's easier to come up with ideas if we can see what it all looks like.
love the thread. thought i'd ask for some advise on my grow. I was considering some pruning and topping but my concern was that half of my grow is more mature than the other.
I think topping now would probably require me at least 2 weeks to veg until flipping, right? Would topping the taller plants also buy me more time to let the others veg? I would prefer these plants to be more even as i don't want some plants overshadowing others in flower...know what i mean? I would love to flip soon but i don't think the younger ones are ready quite yet...don't even seen preflowers; they're about 3 weeks old.
thoughts and comments appreciated! thanx
I think topping now would probably require me at least 2 weeks to veg until flipping, right? Would topping the taller plants also buy me more time to let the others veg? I would prefer these plants to be more even as i don't want some plants overshadowing others in flower...know what i mean? I would love to flip soon but i don't think the younger ones are ready quite yet...don't even seen preflowers; they're about 3 weeks old.
thoughts and comments appreciated! thanx
Hi dante, sorry for the late answer.
You have a very nice collection of strains there and the plants seem very healthy.
This time it's difficult to give advice because your plants look so great that I would be tempted to just leave them alone. I can however give you some options to consider.
The fact is that there is no fast and easy way to an even canopy here. If you top the taller plants, they will slow down for a while but they will also grow fatter, wider and with more dominant shoots. They might end up crowding the smaller plants even more.
If you flip the switch now without topping the plants, the smaller plants might stretch for the light so that they end up as tall as the older plants but they will grow mostly stem and that is of little use to you. What you need are more bud nodes.
If you feel that the older plants need to be topped, only remove as much tissue as you feel is needed. Perhaps they need to be cut down in size so that they are about the same height as the smaller plants. In this case, you are probably looking at more than 2 additional weeks in veg because it takes the plants several days to resume their regular growth pattern and you'll need to give them time to make up for the lost tissue or you'll end up with less bud. The other option is supercropping but that might also give you even bushier plants that take up more space than they do now.
You can also consider a full-on training session for all the plants but that will require several more weeks of veg. You can top and train all the plants, so that they grow evenly and then you can scrog them for more control.
The second option requires no work at all. The smaller and younger plants will probably stretch more than the older plants after the 12/12 switch because they are not yet ready for flowering. So, they might reach the same height after all. They are not that far apart right now, judging by the picture. The older plants are pretty much set for flowering and might start budding fairly soon after the light schedule has been changed. The smaller plants might stretch tall enough to end up at the same height as the tall ones but the added height will be mostly stem and not potential bud sites.
In that case, I would flip the switch very soon because when the younger plants show preflowers, they will be ready to start budding soon after. I usually recommend a gradual switch, so that you reduce the daylight hours a little bit every day until you reach 12/12. In this case, I might go straight to 12/12 because it will make the smaller plants strech more. But like I said, it will be mostly stem.
The best option is probably Scrogging + LSTing. You seem to have more than enough space in your grow room for all the plants. You can install a scrog net above the plants and then redirect the shoots so that they cover the entire area without actually removing any tissue. You can place the smaller plants in the middle and the taller plants in the corners. Guide the taller shoots underneath the scrog net, so that they cover all the space that the smaller plants are not using. That will reduce the height of the taller plants. The shorter plants will grow straight up through the scrog net and end up in the middle. If you do it right, you'll end up with an even canopy that is spread out all over the grow area, and little space will be wasted. Ideally, you would have a "sea" of bud growing though and resting on the scrog net. The stems on the taller plants can be quite rigid, so be careful when you bend them. Do a little bit of LSTing every day until they have grown into the desired shape. The shoots will stretch and curl towards the light, so you that to your advantage when you plan the training. You can continue the training during flowering if needed. It won't stress out the plants.
Finally, if you feel that the plants are best left alone, you can always prop up the smaller plants by adding something underneath the pots, so that their canopy is at the same level as the taller plants. They will end up smaller that way but it's an easy fix. Getting them closer to the light will also reduce the overall stretch and that will give your smaller plants more bud nodes, although they will remain quite compact.
I would not remove any leaves at this point because they provide the plant with energy and should be left alone. You can always adjust that later on when you have a better picture of how much space each plant requires. It's also good to keep in mind that some of the light passes through the leaves, so removing them might not be necessary at all. As you probably have guessed, I'm not a big fan of pruning leaves. I've tried both ways and I always get fatter buds and healthier plants when I leave the leaves alone. They are the "solar panels" that provide the "factory" with energy. Raw materials are of little use to the "factory" if you remove the primary source of energy. The "production" depends on both. People often forget that nutrients have to be turned into chemical energy together with sugars before they can be used by the plant and that conversion takes place in the leaves. The excess energy is converted into starch, which can readily be turned back into sugar when needed. The plant uses up all the energy that is stored in the leaves during the final stages of flowering. That energy will also be lost when you remove the leaves. The leaves can always be tied or tucked out of the way. It's real easy to do when you have a scrog net in place.
There are many ways to go here. It's difficult for me to say what is best because you know the plant better.
I hope that I at least managed to give you some good options to consider.
You have a very nice collection of strains there and the plants seem very healthy.
This time it's difficult to give advice because your plants look so great that I would be tempted to just leave them alone. I can however give you some options to consider.
The fact is that there is no fast and easy way to an even canopy here. If you top the taller plants, they will slow down for a while but they will also grow fatter, wider and with more dominant shoots. They might end up crowding the smaller plants even more.
If you flip the switch now without topping the plants, the smaller plants might stretch for the light so that they end up as tall as the older plants but they will grow mostly stem and that is of little use to you. What you need are more bud nodes.
If you feel that the older plants need to be topped, only remove as much tissue as you feel is needed. Perhaps they need to be cut down in size so that they are about the same height as the smaller plants. In this case, you are probably looking at more than 2 additional weeks in veg because it takes the plants several days to resume their regular growth pattern and you'll need to give them time to make up for the lost tissue or you'll end up with less bud. The other option is supercropping but that might also give you even bushier plants that take up more space than they do now.
You can also consider a full-on training session for all the plants but that will require several more weeks of veg. You can top and train all the plants, so that they grow evenly and then you can scrog them for more control.
The second option requires no work at all. The smaller and younger plants will probably stretch more than the older plants after the 12/12 switch because they are not yet ready for flowering. So, they might reach the same height after all. They are not that far apart right now, judging by the picture. The older plants are pretty much set for flowering and might start budding fairly soon after the light schedule has been changed. The smaller plants might stretch tall enough to end up at the same height as the tall ones but the added height will be mostly stem and not potential bud sites.
In that case, I would flip the switch very soon because when the younger plants show preflowers, they will be ready to start budding soon after. I usually recommend a gradual switch, so that you reduce the daylight hours a little bit every day until you reach 12/12. In this case, I might go straight to 12/12 because it will make the smaller plants strech more. But like I said, it will be mostly stem.
The best option is probably Scrogging + LSTing. You seem to have more than enough space in your grow room for all the plants. You can install a scrog net above the plants and then redirect the shoots so that they cover the entire area without actually removing any tissue. You can place the smaller plants in the middle and the taller plants in the corners. Guide the taller shoots underneath the scrog net, so that they cover all the space that the smaller plants are not using. That will reduce the height of the taller plants. The shorter plants will grow straight up through the scrog net and end up in the middle. If you do it right, you'll end up with an even canopy that is spread out all over the grow area, and little space will be wasted. Ideally, you would have a "sea" of bud growing though and resting on the scrog net. The stems on the taller plants can be quite rigid, so be careful when you bend them. Do a little bit of LSTing every day until they have grown into the desired shape. The shoots will stretch and curl towards the light, so you that to your advantage when you plan the training. You can continue the training during flowering if needed. It won't stress out the plants.
Finally, if you feel that the plants are best left alone, you can always prop up the smaller plants by adding something underneath the pots, so that their canopy is at the same level as the taller plants. They will end up smaller that way but it's an easy fix. Getting them closer to the light will also reduce the overall stretch and that will give your smaller plants more bud nodes, although they will remain quite compact.
I would not remove any leaves at this point because they provide the plant with energy and should be left alone. You can always adjust that later on when you have a better picture of how much space each plant requires. It's also good to keep in mind that some of the light passes through the leaves, so removing them might not be necessary at all. As you probably have guessed, I'm not a big fan of pruning leaves. I've tried both ways and I always get fatter buds and healthier plants when I leave the leaves alone. They are the "solar panels" that provide the "factory" with energy. Raw materials are of little use to the "factory" if you remove the primary source of energy. The "production" depends on both. People often forget that nutrients have to be turned into chemical energy together with sugars before they can be used by the plant and that conversion takes place in the leaves. The excess energy is converted into starch, which can readily be turned back into sugar when needed. The plant uses up all the energy that is stored in the leaves during the final stages of flowering. That energy will also be lost when you remove the leaves. The leaves can always be tied or tucked out of the way. It's real easy to do when you have a scrog net in place.
There are many ways to go here. It's difficult for me to say what is best because you know the plant better.
I hope that I at least managed to give you some good options to consider.
Thanks for the good vibes 7asheesh, I also wish you the best.
I'm glad that people are finding the guide useful because that is why I wrote it in the first place.
As usual, all questions and thoughts on any topic are welcome on this thread.
Keep growing that sweet green gold
Kodiak
I'm glad that people are finding the guide useful because that is why I wrote it in the first place.
As usual, all questions and thoughts on any topic are welcome on this thread.
Keep growing that sweet green gold
Kodiak
I had a similar situation. Check out this blubonic stem it just split in 2
Attachments
Seeker, it won't hurt but you'll get a better picture if you top first and then train the branches as they grow.
Yeah, that's one wierd plant alright Mr. Yum. The cause can be genetic or environmental. I've seen mutant plants do strange things, like grow bud on leaves etc. Nice shot though.
Yeah, that's one wierd plant alright Mr. Yum. The cause can be genetic or environmental. I've seen mutant plants do strange things, like grow bud on leaves etc. Nice shot though.
islander420
Member
Great info
