A Complete Guide to Topping, Training and Pruning

[Chronito]

Thanks Kodiak for the info. Yes i agree on removing any plants that show signs of hermy. I dont breed BUT i will definitely be culling any plants that are not 100% female.. Im going to keep 1 or 2 of these strains as mothers so only the best will do!

I'll post up some fresh pics in about a week (if thats ok?) showing the topping progress. I topped fairly heavily and one thing ive noticed is that couple of the lower branches i topped (maybe i should have left these ones) are not really responding so far.. By that i mean the new growth is not starting below the cut like its supposed to.. ITs only been 2 days i guess they need more time?

peace
chronito

 

[Kodiak]

Sounds like a good plan Chronito.

Sure, go ahead and post some pics when the plants have had time to respond to the training. It might take slightly longer than a week though before you see a real difference.

Yeah, you need to give them more time. You'll see some progress in about 5-7 days. The shoots on the lower branches always seem to grow more slowly than the ones that are further up on the plant.

Removing too much at the same time might put the plant in defence mode and it will start releasing jasmonic acid. It's an insect repellent but it also inhibits growth, so go easy on the plants. It's nothing serious though and the plant continues to grow normally when it percieves that the "insect/herbivore attack" is over.

Some degree of stress is always good because it will help you to screen out the less resistant plants and hermies but too much stress at once will result in stunted growth. Just something to consider.

I'm sure that your plants will be fine, they look happy and well fed.

 

[Rabi]

thnx for the guide!!! got my first scrog on the way... i hope i wont do anything stupid!!
take care!

 

[Kodiak]

Hi Rabi, I'm glad that you liked the guide.

Try not to make any hasty decisions. You can always wait another day or two before doing something that you have planned. Let the ideas simmer for a while and the answer will come to you.

Good Luck

 

[Chronito]

Hey Kodiak! hope all is well in your neck of the woods..

A quick update on the topping.. so about a week ago i topped all my main shoots.. Everything has resumed growth and is coming along very nicely. There are now lots of new tops forming.. With 3 weeks left until flower my only regret is that i didnt top more often. Ive observed that by topping sporadically it can create weird shaped plants that are not entirely efficient. By this i mean that alot of the lower branches ive had to remove but i could imagine with more topping it would minimise what needs removing as more uniform growth of all shoots would occur resulting in a more even canopy of prime tops.

As luck happens ive just sprouted a few more beans to try and find some good genetics so i will be experimenting ALOT on these ones with regards to topping. I want to end up with bushes with many top colas all at about the same height, then i guess Scroging would become a very effective practice also?


Pics to follow later once i get new batteries for the camera.. Thanks again Kodiak I appreciate your guidance..

Oh and another matter i wanted to ask you about if u dont mind.. Ive read your info about LST'ing im not really that interested in doing this right from the start but what do u think about LIGHTLY tying some of the main branches to the rim of the potting container just prior to flowering? All i really wanted to achieve was to seperate the top branches a bit by lightly pulling them apart so they can all receive more light during flowering.. Do you think this is a good practice to follow?


Many thanks in advance

Chronito

 

[Chronito]

They say a picture is worth a thousand words.. Well heres 4 of them!

I cannot wait to start topping the little seedlings and see if i can make a bush worthy bush!

Peace
Chronito

 

[Scrogerman]

Hey Chronito,
Great looking plants(What are they?), ive been following along for a while now & your doing OK bro.
Just a few things to add, imo you dont need to be constantly topping branches(especially lower ones-thats a waste of time), Its HST & puts the plant under quite a bit of stress, as Kodiak has pointed out. LST/bending tops has arguably a better overall effect on the plants, as its LST as apposed to HST. Its all about Auxin distribution, the hormone that resides in the growing tips of the merristem &or the growing tips of the leading branches, once you top, the plant distributes the auxins to the other growing tips further down. Bending the leading branches has the exact same effect on auxins, but with less stress on the plant. I top plants myself, but only once, then i impliment LST. Just thought id mention this, hope you dont mind Ko'!!!.

btw, to slow leading branches height/verticle growth & to keep a nice even canopy i use the 'Crush or Pinch' tecnique(this is a type of HST), leading branches always try to become the main branch & will try to shoot off(especially Sati or Sati Dom Pheno's), a simple pinch a couple of inches from the tip slows that leader down, enabling the others branches to catch up, bending also re-distributes the auxin, doing this will help keep all your leaders even, giving you a nice flat canopy, making maximum use of light distribution. It takes some practice but implimenting both LST & the 'Pinch' tec i can make a nice flat/even canopy. imo constant topping is unessasary & is just stressing your plants more than is nessasary. A ScrOG Screen just makes the whole process easier, like stabilisers on a kiddies bike.

heres a nice little thread, the guys got the Lst cracked:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=185729

Best of Luck Guys!

(I get alot of people asking me about ScrOG & i always direct them to this thread, its one of the best on the site for learning about training, Great Work Kodiak!!)

 

[Kodiak]

Hi Chronito

Your plants look great, do doubt about it. You clearly have a knack for growing. Good work.

I agree with what Scrogerman said. You don't necessarily need to top every new shoot. Like he said, it's high stress training (HST) and upsets the plant to some degree every time. You are also removing growth that could be kept in check with Low Stress Training (LST).

If you top the plant too many times, you'll also end up with a whole bunch of smaller shoots. They might not produce as much bud
as slightly fewer but stronger main colas. Depending on the number of plants and the size of your grow area, I would say that around 6-8 big main colas should be enough for each plant. Much more than that and you will have the energy need spread out over too many shoots. This is however not always the case, so you have to be flexible in your decisions. Sometimes less is more and other times more is actually more. It all depends. You should be able to tell what the appropriate number is by looking at the plants.

By looking at the plants I can see that some of them have what seems to be the right number of main shoots. If you allow these branches to become dominant and grow thicker, they should be able to produce a whole lot of bud. By the looks of it, you might not have to do any more training on them. Just let them go. Since you intend to give them a few more weeks in veg, you'll be able to spot the most productive branches and shoots.

Since your plants are already so far along, I agree with your idea of spreading out the main branches in order for the light to reach further down. Sort of like opening an umbrella. This will allow the topmost shoots on the stronger branches to fatten up until flowering. Your plants are also quite tall already, so you have remember that they will stretch when you change to the flowering schedule. They might even double in height, so I hope that you have enough clearance. You can always LST in flowering as well, when needed. Using a scrog net will help because then you can bend the branches and tie them to the net if they venture too close to the light. You could even consider flowering them sooner than you've planned.

You probably still have to remove some of the weaker branches and lower shoots in order to push the production towards the tops. Don't remove anything until you have scrogged the plants and distributed the shoots so that they cover the entire grow area. By this time you will be able to clearly see which shoots are the keepers. Scrogging really helps to visualize things, so you don't have to wait much longer. When you look at the plants from above, the entire net should be covered in a "sea" of bud.

Keep in mind that the efficiency of your light decreases quickly over distance, so what you want is a high concentration of bud close to the light. When you scrog the plants, you can redirect the crowded shoots to areas that are not occupied. Any growth that remains in the shaded area underneath the scrog net, will probably use up more energy than it's worth. Don't remove too much too soon because some of the light passes down to the big leaves. Start from the bottom and move your way up, slowly but surely until you reach a point where you cannot remove anything else without doing more harm than good.

You can also allow the plant to make some decisions here. It will draw energy from the lower leaves and relocate the energy higher up. When you see leaves going yellow, it's safe to remove them. I usually remove all the small "popcorn" buds lower down on the branches because they are a lost cause no matter what.

Perhaps this picture says more than my words:

 

[IncredibowlBoss]

So I still haven't had the heart to flip her into flower because she just keeps GROWING! Finally switching the timer when I head to Vegas for CHAMPS (2 weeks). Had a little PM scare with one of her new roommates (since removed to quarantine), so she was temporarily quarantined under t5s & dedicated training was held up for a bit.

Top growth is out of control (in a good way!), and I just trimmed out all her lower foliage, but she already looks like she needs another trim. Got he SCROG net all ready to go for when we flip her.

(I'll take more pics after lights come on this eve)

 

[Scrogerman]

Wow, Great Graphic Ko',
That explains it visually very well indeed. Also i want to add that a plant will only yield to its full potential at any given Size. There comes a point where having more tops doesnt always mean your gonna get more Bud. ie- A nice Indica grown Big with say 30 tops compared to the Same plant grown Big with 100 tops doesnt mean your going to yield more. In my experience all that happens is the plant with 100 tops will give the same or similar yield but the Buds will be 'Alot' smaller compared to the plant with 30 tops. It goes more on Light output & light distribution given to that paticular plant in its paticular light footprint. Now we are trying to grow Bud not little stems. So imo its finding that balance, the amount of tops suitable for that paticular strain & the output of your light will dictate final yield. Im not very good at explaining things like this but this is my experience. I would rather 30 Nice fat Chunky Colas(not too big) than 100 little piddley popcorn buds, & you need to be aware of this. I mention this from my own personal experiences with training various strains, just to see exactly how much(maximum) i could squeeze out of a plant at a given size, under various HID wattages. I regularly hit 1.1-1.3 gpw(grams per watt), i do know theres more to consider that just 'GPW', like gpw per month of growing time etc. But as a general rule for say 400w HPS i give a 3-6 week veg time(which is decent) & a 7-10 week flower time-depending on strain, aiming for between 40-70 tops/colas per square meter(all at equal distance from the HPS/HID to maximise light distribution for each top). Many times ive seen people try to be greedy & go for 150 tops per square meter & they end up with a canopy of popcorn at harvest. They exceaded the plants fruit/bud potential & learned by this mistake.

Im not very good at explaining myself, i know you'll understand Ko, maybe you can add to the points im trying to make about a plant only yielding to its full potential at a given size, in a given space, under a certain wattage of HID, in a given amount of time. Too many tops & you end up with a screen of Popcorn at harvest! Ive found these points to be paticulaly important for Indica or Indica Dom Phenos, they dont like having too many tops, Sativa & Sativa Doms are a little more forgiving & you can push them harder.
Indica Doms id be looking at about 20-40 tops, psm but it is strain dependant. Sati Doms 40-70 Colas psm, ive found these numbers about perfect for most strains.(Talking ScrOG).

Best o Luck Guys!

 

[Kodiak]

I agree Scrogerman.

I prefer slightly fewer but heavier and fatter colas than a whole bunch of smaller ones. You get better bud structure that way. Nice dense nugs. They also look more appealing that a truck load of smaller buds. There is a golden balance between the two that can only be found by getting to know the plant. It takes a few runs of the same plant in order to really dial in the grow. Growing the same plant in different ways also gives you an idea of its potential.

You are right of course, a plant cannot exceed it's potential no matter how you train it. In the end it all comes down to roots.

Keeping an even canopy is also very important because then all the shoots will receive the same amount of light and you can also bring the light in closer. This helps to keep the bud structure nice and tight. Maximizing the surface area in the grow room is the name of the game.



Looks good IncredibowlBoss

Nice example of how to keep your plants low and productive. You can bring the light(s) really close to those plants.

Looks like they could use a few more weeks in veg. You've managed to keep them so low that a few more weeks won't hurt. Allow them to put on a little bit more weight before you flip the switch.

 

[Scrogerman]

Nice One Ko Man!
Im glad, i think i actually added something usefull to your exellent thread. Nice Pics InBB, Keep it Green Brothas!

Peace & Respect..........Scroger!

 

[Kodiak]

You sure did and I appreciate the help.

This thread is all about helping growers get the most bud that they possibly can from their plants.

Keep up the good work guys

 

[Kodiak]

I updated the guide with a few new pictures.

Enjoy

 

[Chronito]

Good Morning Guys,

See thats why i love this site.. the senior / experienced guys like Kodiak and Scrogerman and many others are always keen and open to help noobs like myself. Thankyou guys its a huge piece of mind having you guys here to receive guidance from..

Thanks for the very nice compliments Scrogerman to answer your question these plants are from Nirvanas Indoor Fem Mix, so its a mix of Skunk #1, Master Kush, Afghan, Pure Power Plant and Nirvana Special. Being the nooblet i am i have no idea which is which (i was hoping someone could tell me actually lol).

I am definitely thinking alot about implementing some kind of LST with these next seedlings.. As you could imagine im sure theres always a bit of hesitancy when its something new that has never been tried by that person before. In saying that though im one of the more open people out there when it comes to trying different methods. Thanks for that link to Chems Bushes unfortunately i cannot see his pics which i would dearly love to see.. Is it just me or have they been deleted on that thread? Im like a little kid i like pictures to go with the words lol. Id also like to see more of your methods which i will take a good look at later .. Maybe over a cone or 2 me thinks.. I take it you have a grow thread on here which i could check out?

Hey Kodiak thanks again for your compliments and advice. Yeah i was thinking about 6-8 main colas per plant would be a decent number.. so topping twice will generally give this many which is what has been done thus far. I will leave them alone now and let them vege out another 3 loooooooong weeks b4 flipping. Ive already started to clear out some of the lower stuff.. in fact most of it i used as cuttings which was really cool (zero wastage and all). I will clear out a few more lower branches over the next week or so.. I want to have all pruning done 2 weeks b4 flipping to give the girls the best transition into flower possible. Im trying to do little bits at a time like u said so not to stress the babies anymore than necessary. Great pic btw it certainly helps a ton having the odd pic here and there accompanying solid theory.

Luckily i have much room for the plants to stretch (i have about 8 feet to ceiling from floor to work with) so height is not a problem at all. Ive got my lights on chains also so its a very easy adjustment.

I definitely agree about different plants needing different treatments.. its a bit harder this time round dealing with multiple strains but next time round i will have culled the strains down to one or perhaps 2. The "golden balance" i like that one, as im learning i can see how it takes a few runs to really get our systems dialled in for any given strain.

Thanks again Kodiak and Scrogerman i always read your posts a few times over at least (depending on how high i am lol sometimes it takes me 4 times to read one sentence and take it in).. im going to do some more research on the Scrog method over the coming weeks and il see if i can throw a screen in there when it comes time to flower.. If theres any other handy links showing this method in closer detail id love to see them. Seeing as the plants are varying heights i may just do the umbrella thing this time and open them all right up.

Hey Incredibowl looks like you got the LST'ing down my friend.. very cool! How big a pot are your plants in? They look quite big.. Are you following the method shown on the very first page of this thread by Kodiak?.. so basically you tie down all the main shoots and create a "ground bush" so to speak.. Please tell me more about what you are doing here..


Ok better get going for now guys i need to clean up my house!

Thanks again.. Take care and Stay safe
Chronito

 

[IncredibowlBoss]

Hey Incredibowl looks like you got the LST'ing down my friend.. very cool! How big a pot are your plants in? They look quite big.. Are you following the method shown on the very first page of this thread by Kodiak?.. so basically you tie down all the main shoots and create a "ground bush" so to speak.. Please tell me more about what you are doing here..

I dunno - this is definitely my first garden and especially my first time LSTing! Thanks very much!



We started pretty early w/ Sour D - we tied down her main stem completely upside-down, and let her go for about a month, then untied her. During the untied phase, she seemed to grow much more quickly - almost like she was catching up for the time she was tied down, and some new growth tips (apical meristems) started to distinguish themselves, so they all got tied down, and the cycle repeated. In each tie-down, I try to reposition branches to let light penetrate.

The law they're proposing here states that plants under 8" count as clones, not plants, so I'm trying to learn how to pull a pound from a "clone" .

All the plants are in different sized pots depending on how they're growing - my whole method is pretty intuitive (half-lazy, half-crazy). The Sour D plant in the pics is in a 10-gallon - we've been concentrating mainly on root structure, soil life, and tight internodes - looks like it's paying off, but we're not even through veg yet.

Your topping looks SWEET man - I was scared to try it; I figured if I went with LST and it wasn't working out, I could always untie (which was the case with a Durban Poison I tried - she just did NOT like it, but after letting her grow a bit, she was fine with it). Did you use the cuttings to make clones? Did you do all the cuts at the same time, or space it out? How long does it take to recover?

You guys all make this whole process so much more rewarding.

 

[Kodiak]

Yeah, you don't necessarily have to top your plants in order to LST them. Sounds to me like you have been concentrating on the right things IncredibowlBoss. You could consider giving your plants a few weeks of 18/6 before you flower them. I've got a feeling that they might like it.

Good thing you have all that clearance Chronito because those plants will get pretty big. I'm sure that they will turn out great.

You can do both. Tie the branches to the pots, which will open up the plants a bit. Then scrog them for even more control. Scrogging is not that difficult. All you're doing is guiding the shoots through a plastic net. You can get scrog nets at almost any gardening store. Place the net above the canopy and allow the plants to grow through it. The shoots will be quite close together until you separate them into their own sections. This makes the plant a lot easier to manage and working with the individual buds a lot easier. The scrog net will also provice the branches with support. The buds might become so fat and heavy that the branches cannot support the weight, so I recommend that you look into it.

Growing a lot of different strains, sativas mixed with indicas, is the best way to learn because then you have to apply all sorts of techniques in order to keep the plants in check. You should aim for an even canopy but expect some differences in height nonetheless. Sometimes you have to do some additonal training in flowering but you can deal with that when the time comes.

 

[Xerhoss]

Great thread...timely read.

I'm growing 4 strains, 3 of them are indica dominant. The few sativa-dom girls in the bunch had to be topped in order to maintain even canopy, unfortunately the rest are all ready to flip. I'll give em a few days, but in my limited space that's about all the more veg time i can afford with the numbers i'm running.

Thanks for the great info!

 

[Kodiak]

Thanks, I'm glad that you liked it.

You might have to do some light LST'ing in flowering if the sativa-dom girls start getting out of control. LST'ing can be done at any time and I often LST in flowering as well as in veg. The plants recover in no time at all. The shoots and leaves will start turning back towards the light in less than 24 hours.

Good Luck

 

[MrShpongle]

Kodiak, I'm looking for some advice. I've just grown MK Ultra for the first time, and I let it go without any trimming or training to get a feel for its natural shape. And what an odd shape it has! It's just one thick main stem with buds and leaves all over it (sorta shaped like a tall vase or half a baseball bat). It doesn't look like a sativa or indica. With this background, what technique(s) would you recommend on it? I was advised against scrogging it by the person who gave me the original clone. What about topping, FIMming, or LSTing? And do you think this would be a good plant to try monstercropping down the road?

P.S. I'm 2-1/2 weeks into my monstercropping experiment. I took 3 cuttings from plants that were 20 days into flower. All rooted in rockwool within a week. They are now in soil and rooting like crazy. There's no topside growth yet, but I'm sure the flowering hormones are still swimming inside the stems, so I really don't expect to see them return to vegging for another 10-14 days.