3 plus 3=?

[GMT]

Sounds like you're going to have quite a collection of genes going pretty soon. I'd deffo recomend making your own crosses. It's so much fun, and ads a real adventure every time you pop a new seed. Not to mention the knowledge that what you're smoking (4 months down the line) is something that no one else in the whole world has. Always gives me a buzz that one.

 

[GMT]

Hey Big D, missed your post as I was replying to Shaun, Thanks, and thanks

 

[shaunmulok]

yea cant wait just went and checked the post not today maybee tommorrow

 

[GMT]

lol, a watched post box, and all that.

well time for this weeks update, just a quick look at the quad, had a slow week this week, the balast thats been with me from the start finally gave up the ghost, so had to wait for a new one to be delivered. Also finally took the chance to change the bulb, so we'll see what kind of difference a new bulb makes.

 

[nekoloving]

Outdoorgrower, trying. Although I'd rather it was an option rather than in half of everything.

Herbal, thanks, I'm not entirely convinced that these types of plants do contain 3 helixs on their dna chain. It could also be the result of a single gene doubling itself (or some type of typical mutation resulting in trifoliar tendencies) within one of the chromosomes, which takes place all the time, having varying effects. Until someone actually maps the genome of one of these, (and I don't have those resources), it's all guess work as to what's going on at that level. Although I would have though myself that a true polyploid would pass that trait onto all of it's offspring. Whereas when breeding trifoliar plants, the offspring tend to show traits which would be more relevant to standard hiredity theories, such as dominant and recessive traits. With the trifoliar pheno being a recessive trait. But like I said it's all theory at this point.
Some links to genetics related sites:
genetic glossary
http://library.thinkquest.org/19037/glossary.html#h
gene school
http://library.thinkquest.org/19037/general_info.html
more detailed
http://flux.aps.org/meetings/YR02/MAR02/baps/abs/S7500.html
great article on history
http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/content/full/92/6/979
more sex genes evolve
http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v95/n2/full/6800697a.html
gender determination
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00276.htm

Hi Hal, depends on how you grow, I get more growing sites from topping bifoliars repeatedly. They just look nice

ok amazing stuff there, +rep

question: if what your saying is true, it should be very easy to tell genetically speaking. it should just show as a pheno as my very limited bio knowledge whispers, right?

so just seed these with themselves and grow a couple hundred and see how many keep it, etc. pita but very doable, no? even if its just a matter of a hormone, a gene could be causing odd levels so its doing some fairly predictable mutation, no?

i say with itself to maximize chances of the double recessive - please feel free to be harsh~!~

 

[GMT]

Current theory

Current theory

Hey Neko, wow, that's a very old post you're quoting there, must be near the start of the thread for the links to appear. Can I ask how far you got through before skipping to the end lol. Not that I blame you if you did. I'm just glad that you're actually interested in what's going on "behind the scenes" as it were. Ok, I'm about to start rambling now, it may be a short ramble or it may take some time, I never know when I start a post like this.
I've given this post a title so that I can find it myself, as it's always handy to have a record of what I was thinking a while ago.
The post that you quoted was something that I wrote a while ago, and I've made several observations since then. The member on this board who I have the most respect for, for their knowledge base on genetics is a guy called Charles Xavier (his nic), and when I spoke with him on the subject he agreed with the conclusions that I had written in that post. However since then there are things that do not add up. Fristly lets take the case of a recessive gene in humans, the easiest to use for that purpose is the case of red heads. When a red head has a kid with a brown head, the brown head gene will always dominate the red head gene, and the kid will always be a brown head. That brown head though will have a red head recessive gene. As the red head parent will always pass the red head gene on since both parents pass on one gene, and to make a red head parent they need to posses 2 redhead genes. Now that brown head kid will have one dominant brown head gene and one recessive redhead gene ( I realise this is basic but you'll see where I am going with this in a minute), (looks like its going to be a long post lol). Now if that brown head kid has a kid with a red head, there will be a 50:50 chance of getting a redhead kid itself. Because it posses a red head gene that hasn't been expressed and the red head it bred with has 2. If 2 red heads have a kid, it will always be a red head, as both redhead parents have 2 redhead genes and no brown head genes. They can only pass on red head genes. The double recessive passing on that you would get if you selfed a redhead.
So what I have been doing is playing with crossing tri parents to tri parents, in the hope of passing on the double recessive genes. If the simple one recessive gene theory held true, then that should be succesfull. As if a diploid species (2 strands of dna, one made up from the dna of each parent (not the same thing as the same as the parents dna strand)) receives one recessive gene from each parent, it should posses a double recessive gene combo. The reason that I haven't selfed one (though I have considered doing that) is if I am going to use up seeds searching for examples of tri's that are suitable for breeding, and then take the time to breed them (or in that case self one female), and then take the trouble to search those seeds, then I want some of them to be males so that I can use them for breeding. Also my seeds will not hermi under any conditions, (though I have not tried poisoning them), and I tend to feel (not proved just a personal suspision), that encouraging that to happen may in fact cause a natural suseptability in successive generations. The point being, that even if I selfed one plant and got some tris from it, I would only be in the same position as having bred a tri to a tri, but with extra risks in the subsequent generations.

Unfortuantely, simply crossing one tri to another tri, does not in the first generation create a high number of tri offspring. Nor does doing it several times. In fact its taking a lot of generations to slowly bring the numbers up. Though I did introduce new genes of a bifoliar unrelated plant quite a few generations ago, which had an impact on the frequency. Though I am now getting the ratios up again. In fact the simple one recessive gene theroy does not stand up to observation. But then neither do any of the other available theories including the triploid/polyploid theories.

I have not created another theory to explain what is going on as that would be merely guess work, and the addition of quads now, makes things particularly difficult to work out. In theory a quad is the ultimate tri, having received a gene that says double up here, on both of its dna strands. This would imply that crossing a quad with a bifoliar example would create an all tri offspring. Unfortuantely crossing a quad with a tri does not create an all tri or quad offsrping as you may expect. Though the exstence of the quad would suggest that there is a "double up here" command somewhere that can be passed on from a single tri parent, 2 tri parents both passing thier "double up here" command resulting in a quad. The fact that tri's and quads can also revert to standard bi foliar examples in some cases also suggests that that command exists and can be either turned on or off (prob through RNA receptors). So not only do I need to control which genes are passed on but also the epigeneology too (the experience of the parent plants and offspring plants). I am still ruling out the triploid/polyploid theories though, as I find it very hard to believe that an entire DNA strand can be switched off.

I haven't covered it all there, but I hope I gave you something to consider. Hopefully without boring you too much. Please if you have anything else you'd like to ask, it's usefull for me to make a note of it too. Thanks for the interest.

 

[GMT]

Another quick important note, at the point of "writing" the new dna strands, the dna of the parent strand is separated into its various chromosomes, and the gene sequences within those chromosomes are re-written. Some of them are reversed, some of them are doubled, and some of them are halved. As this happens small mistakes are made sometimes and new CATG sequences are created. Thes new versions of the genes are then used to create the individual, where these sequences generate superior individuals, the individuals are more likely to survive and have kids, hence evolution, and this is the case with the tri's and quads, only rather than the environment selecting which individuals get to breed succesfully, I do. It is possible that the "double up here" command as I refered to it above, needs to be written one way, and any of the processes which alter this code, prevent it from generating the effect we are talking about. Once the same gene code is used on several successive generations, it tends to get hard wired into the sequence, and other areas are concentrated on for the "scrabble effect" of rewriting. That gene then being returned to for re-writing in the future. This way the whole genome is being constantly altered, though normally only one stage at a time in small ways in order to ensure each re write gets a fair chance at being tested on its own. It maybe that this "double up here" command is currently in this stage in these plants, and that each successive genereation is slowly hardwiring that command into the genome.

So much for not making any guesses on new theories lol.

 

[nekoloving]

about a dozen pages in i think, still reading up on everything. i think i'm gonna grab a bio book and read a few chaps too. thanx for taking the time to make it make sense to a layman

the quote etc was specifically for the links i was originally going to edit that post, and add anything that was left after finishing the thread, however i now choose this post for that purpose :>


[reserved space]

 

[GMT]

lol, dont do that, just add new questions into a new post at the end of the thread, wherever that is when you think of them, as I tend to only read back to my last post.
The best place to start reading is by clicking through those links I provided, they are the best I could find on the net after weeks of solid searching and reading.

 

[nekoloving]

ok few questions now that i'm done. and um mebbie i fibbed abit? 1-2 not 12?


right so sorry for the fib. i've properly read the entire thread. i really was just looking for some interesting threads to read saw the linkys, figured they deserved it lol.

however!

I'm very glad i did read the thread, as breeding is something I'm interested in long term, would be an awesome retirement project; and as long as if i found anything really good, passed it on to others who could use it, i think a significant contribution enough to feel good about it [i'll probably suck hehe]

anyhow so then here we go with no further ado

LOL, Hi Core, I knew no one was paying attention these days. The girl in the back of the pic, the BN, is my F4 BN girl, she is a tri, pollinated with the tri male BNF4, whose parents were the BNF3 tri male and female, whose parents were the BN F2s, Tri Male and tri Female, The BN F1 female was normal but her husband was tri, and her mother, grandmother, and great great grandmothers were tri. Each generation, I'm getting a little closer, but I dont think I'll get a new species that are all tri for around 10,000 years or so, that seems to be the time line that evolution takes in nature.
It does go to show though that these breeders who claim to have taken a plant showing a pheno, and crossing it to another plant showing the same pheno, and claiming that the off spring will reliably show the same pheno, are either uninformed, or using sales tactics to sell to the uninformed.

certainly this type of information sharing [the passing infoz on to the future] is more of a generational thing than a timely fashion - lets go with 10k gens :>

On the speed thing, you may actually be wasting your time, icmag auto resizes all pics uploaded to it to 600x800 pixels and deletes and exif info, so what ever you upload, personally, being lazy, i just upload the 7.4 million pixel verion of my photos and ic sends out 480,000 pixels. I've tried resizing them myself, (it would reduce my upload time from 15 mins per pic to not much more than 1 min, but for some reason the pic quality is far lower, than when ic does it, so i send the whole files. So unless you are sending files smaller than ic resends em, you wont actually reduce the download speed. But I appreciate the thought mate, no worries, I dont mind waiting for a quality update, its just when I go back to see a reply and have to download them all again to see someone say nice pics etc, or have to download em twice to type a reply with smileys, or worse, when someone replies on the next page, reposting the whole of your post with the comment "awesome" or some such, underneath it that I throw something. Anyway, I'm still looing for the best broadband deal, so hard to compare the deals though, if I upgrade with my current provider it pricey, but if I cancel then resign I get a free laptop, or I can go elsewhere with my current laptop and get it for half the price I pay for dial up, all need contracts though, and I hate contracts, need to find someone who will let me pay the whole contract up front and cancel at the end of the min term before I start. Wont be too long till I enter the 21st centrury though, hey, isn't Buck Rogers supposed to get lost soon?[/quote]

this would be because when you upload the picture in order to remove everything and be sure about it, they are (were?) probably using something like imagemagic to `convert` it - each conversion introduces noise - like mp3's so yeh


`big echoing sounds`
more pestering questions!!!


echo
cho
ho
o

hrmz ok so i think you were saying a while back and kinda now that its not a single gene but perhaps several?
and there was some stuff ive seen in this thread and others about the leafs at differing numbers of nodes being tri bi etc and reverting back and forth or whatnot. and youve talked about plants that under stress reverted. so wouldnt it be interesting if its really production of a hormone at different phases in the cycle? like if it said, ok so for your first month put this out, second month this, etc etc. perhaps there are some subphases involved that dont seem visable to someone like me who is a bit inexperienced at this hehe.

anyway so with that thought in mind i started wondering how i would go about testing, and all i came up with was taking a branch off a tri/quad and SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZING all the juice out of it [like the sap or whatever] and going to a stable regular plant, and right as it's starting to think about splitting, puncturing from underneath or something but trying to cover it inside and out with the juice from the tri. or just dripping a few drops on it every so long hours?daily? whatnot. is this even feasable?

 

[GMT]

lol at the fib, so now you've read all 428 posts? are you fibbing again lol.

I've got myself the broadband deal that I was looking for now, no contracts and very low monthly price. So pic sizes are no longer an issue for me, jsut as well since the image size increased since then. I was being a little silly with Core, whos been here from the start and knows what I'm doing inside out now. And is probably bored to tears with it all. Besides he's breeding his own stuff these days, and producing some very sparkly plants in the process. I dont really expect it to take 10,000 years, I may start to run into issues if it does, like I may get bored myself at 6-7,000 lol. The point that I was making there was more about genetic stability in commercially available seeds.
I'm a big believer in man's rising to the throne of the animal kingdom being more about the education of the next generation than tools and fire myself. If we can learn from each other, then that's something less to work out for ourselves.

So anyway, yes back to the main subject.
Well, perhaps the interaction between several, prehaps one cluster that needs to be written in a certain way, I'm still unsure. Plants that revert tend to pass that revertion process onto their offspring, just like every other trait, so I dont tend to use those that revert in breeding. Or at lest the part that reverts is removed and only the part that contains the active genes are used for breeding. What ever causes the revertion, when it happens, it is not passed onto the next generation. That is it isnt allowed to breed from a point that has seen reversion take place. I dont think that there are subphases, as there are examples where it just doesn't happen at all. What ever the differences are, only "good" well behaved examples get to pass on their genes.
Your experiment could certainly be done, but I think its kind of like sqeezing a tall guy over a short guy and seeing if he'll grow taller. Although taking female hormones do turn a guy into a girl and vice versa, but these are genes that are already present, rather than adding new genes. If you could syphen off the RNA though in a lab and introduce high quantities (prob through a hydro system) into non tri plants that contain the tri genes and seeing if something is activated that would be a really interesting experiment. Though sadly with my one light and wardrobe, it's totally out of my reach. The reverse could also be done, introducing the rna of a bi to a tri and seeing if it reverted. You have certainly come up with an interesting idea, though I dont think the sap itself would affect this. Even that isn't really feasable for me to try, the quantities required would be enormous. If grafting was easier, it would be nice to try that out, but I've never managed to do a weed graft.
Thanks for the continued interest, keep any thoughts coming.

 

[nekoloving]

lol at the fib, so now you've read all 428 posts? are you fibbing again lol.

I've got myself the broadband deal that I was looking for now, no contracts and very low monthly price. So pic sizes are no longer an issue for me, jsut as well since the image size increased since then. I was being a little silly with Core, whos been here from the start and knows what I'm doing inside out now. And is probably bored to tears with it all. Besides he's breeding his own stuff these days, and producing some very sparkly plants in the process. I dont really expect it to take 10,000 years, I may start to run into issues if it does, like I may get bored myself at 6-7,000 lol. The point that I was making there was more about genetic stability in commercially available seeds.
I'm a big believer in man's rising to the throne of the animal kingdom being more about the education of the next generation than tools and fire myself. If we can learn from each other, then that's something less to work out for ourselves.

So anyway, yes back to the main subject.
Well, perhaps the interaction between several, prehaps one cluster that needs to be written in a certain way, I'm still unsure. Plants that revert tend to pass that revertion process onto their offspring, just like every other trait, so I dont tend to use those that revert in breeding. Or at lest the part that reverts is removed and only the part that contains the active genes are used for breeding. What ever causes the revertion, when it happens, it is not passed onto the next generation. That is it isnt allowed to breed from a point that has seen reversion take place. I dont think that there are subphases, as there are examples where it just doesn't happen at all. What ever the differences are, only "good" well behaved examples get to pass on their genes.
Your experiment could certainly be done, but I think its kind of like sqeezing a tall guy over a short guy and seeing if he'll grow taller. Although taking female hormones do turn a guy into a girl and vice versa, but these are genes that are already present, rather than adding new genes. If you could syphen off the RNA though in a lab and introduce high quantities (prob through a hydro system) into non tri plants that contain the tri genes and seeing if something is activated that would be a really interesting experiment. Though sadly with my one light and wardrobe, it's totally out of my reach. The reverse could also be done, introducing the rna of a bi to a tri and seeing if it reverted. You have certainly come up with an interesting idea, though I dont think the sap itself would affect this. Even that isn't really feasable for me to try, the quantities required would be enormous. If grafting was easier, it would be nice to try that out, but I've never managed to do a weed graft.
Thanks for the continued interest, keep any thoughts coming.

so you think its more like an rna thing rather than a few extra hormones circulating through the plants circulatory system? i would have mentioned something from the grafts, i just assumed that it wouldnt be too hard to squeeze the juice out - tho i see the intended point - blood transfusions from a boy thats growing to another boy thats growing [far shorter] trying to get enough growth hormone to trigger a measurable result. i was assumeing that if it were more of a chemical production thing. spose really we should be taking nubs from the tri/quad, where its STARTING to grow and pop that juice on a regular nub starting bit.

in any case, thou art indeed the expert, thankyou for being patient we me littering your thread with questions. and yes all of it. [this should be #430 and i think my 4th?] lol

time to do some major re-education in bio for me!

 

[GMT]

Well the problem is that even if it was that simple, I'd still need to produce enough of them to be able to squeeze lots of em. The simplest way to do that is to keep breeding with those that exhibit the pheno. Squeezing them all wouldn't help with that, but seeding them or using the pollen will.

 

[GMT]

Quick note just for my own purposes:

Quad showed sex yesterday, she's a girl, damn it.
Oldest tri still hasn't shown sex.
A bunch of F5 seedlings are growing and I found the bag of F5xF3s that I forgot about, seeds started popping this morning, 3 tris up so far. Assuming 24 days till sexual maturity the quad will be too old to pollinate by the time pollen starts to drop, so cuts taken from the quad. Plan: leave quad in flower and hope eldest tri is male, do a F5xF5 there and select best male from F5xF3 to cross to the F5 Quad cut that survives. Also do trixtri F5 x F5F3 to ensure the quad doesnt have neg effects on the tri trait. Smoke the rest.

 

[GMT]

quick update
Quad is showing signs of staggering the node points, not happy about that.
current garden, anything not the quad is a tri.

 

[GMT]

Timeline update, Oldest tri showed sex, a girl.
All plans out of the window, cuts taken, senis grow on the quad and tri, if they're any good, I'll regrow the cuts for seeds, if not, I'll just smoke em, ditch the cuts, and try with others. At least there should be some nice photos, in a couple of months, I haven't done a sensi bud grow for so long now. Pitty the compost I'm using isn't great, still they should pull through fine.

 

[Big D]

lol! This trend thats happening now , where GROWERS actually want males is very strange.

Anyway, grow you some sensi man you deserve it! That quad is gonna put out some bud!

Love your stuff, peace...D

 

[Desiderata]

GMT, hey bro! What strain did you start your experiment with? I'm kinda lost on that.

But that's great you got a female!!! on your triod!

I hope it's potent enough for further development!

Your extracurricular student....desi!

 

[GMT]

Hi Big D, in this age of female rights, it's nice to know that males still have some uses lol. Yeah it is time that I actually grew some nugs rather than just seeds. I only wish I had some decent compost in the posts right now. Got some photos below, you can see they aren't all that happy, but still growing so thats kind of a goodish sign. Soon see how that "used to be quad" will perform. It's branches are completely staggered now, just hoping the tri behaves herself and doesn't start to stagger too. If she does, then she wont be used in a re-run.

Hey Desi, it all started with an orangeberry. I was really hoping for a male on the tri, thought I'd make a small batch of seeds with the quad just to have a quick look if anything interesting came out, never mind, I can always make do with nugs Potency is something that I can pretty much guarantee, along with no hermies no matter how stressed, (for instance the last 4 days they've had 14, 8, 6 & 15 hours of light with one night being as short as 4 hours long). It's just about structure, yield, and leaf to calyx ratios now. Some day I'll get exactly where I want with it all, but I have no idea what I'll do then.

 

[nekoloving]

i would like to order a fresh salad with ranch please?