1st Grow - Advice requested

[mini-mota]

After lurking for over a year, I am now ramping up for my very 1st grow. I have Mandala #1, Speed Queen, and Satori seeds and plan to go indoor, organic soil, and micro. Quality is more important than quantity since I am only growing for my very modest personal usage (although I do prefer to be as efficient as possible ;-)
My needs and concerns:

* very stealthy (visibly innocuous and odor controlled)
* small cab/s
* have at least 1 flowering chamber and 1 mother/clone chamber (not necessarily in the same cab)
* fire-safe
* well-ventillated
* energy efficient
* fairly cheap to build

Questions:

1) For smaller cabinets, what are the most efficient/economical fans that you would recommend? I thought about getting a Panasonic Whisper (yes I know they are not cheap) but wonder whether it might be overkill for smaller cabs.

2) I know this question may cause some debate: For smaller cabs, would a 70w or 100w HPS be more heat and energy/yield efficient (with cooltube) or the same wattage with CFLs? (flower chamber only).

3) I've shopped thrift stores, Walmart, Home Depot, and Lowe's for cheap pre-made cabinets. The ones at Lowe's are very poor quality and somewhat expensive. Home Depot seems to have some decent pre-made white cabs. Have not been able to find anything at Walmart. There are a couple of "Closet Maid" cabinets at Home Depot that I think might work for me: A)Dimensions = 34.75"H x 24"W x 15.25"D and B)19.5"H x 24"H x 12.25"D
(B) is designed for wall-mounting and (A) is designed to sit on the floor. I'd really like to mount one or two units of (A) on the wall but don't know if there will be an issue since it's designed to sit on the floor. Any suggestions about how to wall-mount 1-2 units of (A)?
Any opinions on which cabs to buy considering my needs above?

4) For smaller cabs like those listed above, which of the DIY carbon scrubbers will be sufficient? Largest being Panasonic Whisper hooked up to DIY tray and smallest being a filter about the size of my fist.

Thanks!

mini

 

[ScrubNinja]

1) overkill is good when it comes to ventillation. Better to have a fan that can be slowed down than to have one that doesn't go fast enough.

4) For any cab, the filter with the most surface area is the best, assuming they use equal depth of carbon. So a tray is the best (not to mention easiest and most reliable) general diy idea. It will also allow you to tune the depth of carbon instead of being fixed to whatever size pencil holder (or wtf ever) you can find, or a best guess.

 

[fatigues]

If scrubbing is the plan, I'd go with a S&P TD-100/TD-100x instead of the Panasonic. Sound output is equivalent. Price is cheaper, ability to attach a scrubber is significantly enhanced. Plus - it's more attractive and you can be the same as the cool kidz

As for lighting in your cab - settle on the size of the cab first - lights second. I would point out that CMH is a viable option at low wattage HID (less than 250) and I'd go that way instead of a HPS, if HID was the plan. CMH performs better - and it's a veg and flower bulb. Best of all - it makes your plants look good too! Whitish light without all the yellow to mess up the look and feel when you gaze upon your girls. What's not to like about that? (Especially when they grow faster and bigger.)

In many cases, I would also advocate an aggressive wattage PL-L grow for a micro cab to medium cab, too. The High-Pod remains my all time fave grow here on ICM. Why stop at 330watts? 440w PL-L for the win

There are other options beyond cabs (see the HighPod and other Rubber Maid style grows). Still, if MDF cabs are to your liking - try and get one with the most depth you can find. Getting good depth on the prefab cabs is often the most difficult part in selecting your cab. The best place to look for cabs is the one you did not list: Craigslist. Cheaper, too. And you can find 'em built with real wood (or steel).

 

[mini-mota]

Thanks for the quick replies, ScrubNinja & fatigues!

fatigues: Where can I pick up the S&P fan locally in the States? Why would you go CMH at lower watts instead of HID? Would you also go CMH over CFLs at lower watts? If so, why?

I like the design of the High-Pod as well, but it may not be stealthy enough for me. That spiral scrog (?) looks efficient as hell, though.

 

[mini-mota]

Oops, you must have edited while I was replying - lol! You answered my CMH question regarding CMH vs. HPS. Honestly, I have not researched CMH (as I'm sure you can tell). I think I may have seen CMH bulbs at Home Depot but not the housing.

Inre: Craigslist - I looked there first but it's kinda hit/miss. I looked at craigs for about a month but the shit I wanted I did not move on quickly enough :-/ I would not mind a metal enclosure due to it being more fire-safe (I assume). However, I don't look forward to hacking the shit out of a filing cabinet.

I thought long and hard about rubber maid grows due to the simplicity. However, they are nowhere near stealthy enough for my needs. Most of those containers are not any taller than a PC. Stacking one on top of the other upside down and glowing like a nuclear reactor kinda looks suspicious . . .

 

[alegoblin]

I have ordered several times from these guys without a hitch.Prices are good too.S&Ps are great,have been running three for several years with no problems.Just remember to push hot air away from the fan rather than pulling it through the fan.You will get a lot more service life out of your fan.Efficiency will not be a factor if you implement a unit that has a higher cfm rating than needed.Trust me get more than you need you will need it on down the line. Peace,Ale.

http://www.hvacquick.com/products/r...Remote-Fans-for-Bath/SP-TD-Series-Inline-Fans

 

[mini-mota]

I have ordered several times from these guys without a hitch.Prices are good too.S&Ps are great,have been running three for several years with no problems.Just remember to push hot air away from the fan rather than pulling it through the fan.You will get a lot more service life out of your fan.Efficiency will not be a factor if you implement a unit that has a higher cfm rating than needed.Trust me get more than you need you will need it on down the line. Peace,Ale.

http://www.hvacquick.com/products/r...Remote-Fans-for-Bath/SP-TD-Series-Inline-Fans

Thanks for the reply, Ale!

I'm confused about what you mean by the fan placement, in regards to pushing/pulling the hot air. Could you please link to a pic or diagram of what you mean? I have seen pics of the Panasonic whisper pulling the hot air through the carbon filter and then expelling it out of the cab. I have also seen fans like the S&P pulling (?) air out of a cab and pushing it through a filter before the exhaust leaves. Is this what you mean by pushing vs. pulling?

Also, inre: noise level of S&P fans, the company did not rate the sones. Can you personally comment on how quiet/loud these are? If so, how do you have them connected/hooked up/filtered?

Thanks,

mini

 

[mini-mota]

I think I understand how you could pull through a filter and push through hot air on a cool tube setup for an HPS. My crude diagram below:

exhaust: HPS : fan : filter <---- airflow

I'm not certain how I would orient a fan in a CFL setup; since there are usually multiple lights, which are not conveniently in a tube that directs air flow.

 

[ShamelessJames]

 

[mini-mota]

The dr bud method sounds like a way for you as well. http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=69713

Check out that link, Go to Dr Buds user name and click filter by posts. If you want more check out all the threads started by him as well in his profile.

Thanks for the advice, Shameless! You are right on the money with your recommendation. I have read Dr. Bud's method and have also followed similar threads (Anti and Thunderkle). I definitely have some ideas about what I want to do, in large part (HUGE!!!! thanks) to these guys. Not only did I learn a lot of basics about growing from them, but I also decided that I wanted to model my personal grow/s after them too. Yes, they had that much influence.

There will probably be differences in my setup, though: 1) I want to keep plant count down as much as possible. However, I will probably have more plants at first while I find suitable momma's and poppas. After that, I'll try to keep it small and simple. 2) I am going full organic with very little if any extra ferts beyond compost tea. I'm not certain whether this will have an impact on the watering; i.e. - whether I will submerge the plants during watering. Mandala strains supposedly need little, if any extra nutes. This was one of the reasons I got their seeds since they seem to be a little more "newb friendly" with less for me to screw up if I don't fertilize much. 3) I may/may not go for a perpetual harvest. I'm a lightweight and really don't need that much for my personal consumption. Not sure where I'd keep/hide the extra stash too ^^ .

Bottom Line: In spite of all my lurking/reading, I'm still a 1st timer. I'd like to keep the first grow as simple, clean, and safe as possible.
That said, I'd also like to have a long-term grow plan. Knowing what my ideal/dream setup would help me start out efficiently without having to tear shit down or spend unnecessary $ later on.

Regards,

mini

 

[mini-mota]

Update: I'm seriously leaning toward these LEDs from HTG Supply for my flowering chamber:

http://www.htgsupply.com/viewproduct.asp?productID=53194

I've been seeing more and more successful grow logs using LEDs like these. Was thinking of going with two of them. Anyone in the forums with personal experience growing with these or something similar: please let me know how you like them.

If not the LED panels, then I was thinking about these two HPS lights (also from HTG) for flowering:

http://www.htgsupply.com/viewproduct.asp?productID=49255
(built in ballast)

http://www.htgsupply.com/viewproduct.asp?productID=53025
(remote ballast)

The prices seem pretty cheap to me for entry level/small setup lights. I'm trying to figure out a way to order the lighting + other gear from HTG to another address. Anyone know offhand if HTG takes Vanilla Visa giftcards,etc? Seems like a giftcard would be another good way to reduce the paper trail.

As far as cabinets go, I've been looking hard again at craigslist. I've seen a couple of steel cabinets for sale but the owners are way out in BFE. I'll probably end up getting Home Depot mdf pre-made cabs for the convenience. So far I'm leaning toward the following pre-made, white mdf units:

* two stacked 34.75"H x 24"W x 15.25"D cabs
* two side-by-side 34.75"H x 24"W x 15.25"D cabs
* one 34.75"H x 24"W x 15.25"D on top of a taller 71"H x 24"W wardrobe cab

I don't feel really comfortable with the larger wardrobe cab since I may have to explain what's in it and why it's locked - whereas the smaller cabs seem to invite less attention.

OH! I also bought a couple of 10" single socket cone reflectors that can accommodate up to 300watt bulbs. They include a mounted wire to hang from and clamps as well. However, each CFL would hang vertically, instead of horizontally, losing some height in the cab (and probably some usable light as well). Should not be a problem though if I just use them for clones/moms.

-mini

 

[FreezerBoy]

I love my S&P but it simply doesn't suck like a vortex. Whichever model you're looking at, go one model up.

 

[mini-mota]

I love my S&P but it simply doesn't suck like a vortex. Whichever model you're looking at, go one model up.

Thanks, FreezerBoy. What model of Vortex do you recommend? Also, any recommendations on the supplier for one? I'm still wondering how loud the S&Ps are. . . How do the Vortexes (Vortices ;-P ) compare in noise level to the S&Ps? Any idea on sones?

Regards,

mini

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

1) For smaller cabinets, what are the most efficient/economical fans that you would recommend? I thought about getting a Panasonic Whisper (yes I know they are not cheap) but wonder whether it might be overkill for smaller cabs.

They make 80 and 100 cfm models that wouldn't be overkill. I think they have a 150 too in case you need it.

2) I know this question may cause some debate: For smaller cabs, would a 70w or 100w HPS be more heat and energy/yield efficient (with cooltube) or the same wattage with CFLs? (flower chamber only).

Need to know your flower foot print size (length x width.)

3) I've shopped thrift stores, Walmart, Home Depot, and Lowe's for cheap pre-made cabinets. The ones at Lowe's are very poor quality and somewhat expensive. Home Depot seems to have some decent pre-made white cabs. Have not been able to find anything at Walmart. There are a couple of "Closet Maid" cabinets at Home Depot that I think might work for me: A)Dimensions = 34.75"H x 24"W x 15.25"D and B)19.5"H x 24"H x 12.25"D
(B) is designed for wall-mounting and (A) is designed to sit on the floor. I'd really like to mount one or two units of (A) on the wall but don't know if there will be an issue since it's designed to sit on the floor. Any suggestions about how to wall-mount 1-2 units of (A)?

Any opinions on which cabs to buy considering my needs above?

How much pot do you want per harvest?

4) For smaller cabs like those listed above, which of the DIY carbon scrubbers will be sufficient? Largest being Panasonic Whisper hooked up to DIY tray and smallest being a filter about the size of my fist.

A mesh pencil holder makes pretty good micro scrubber. Humidity and strong order will blow it out from time to time.

 

[mini-mota]

Thanks for your thoughtful replies, Disco ;-)

I have seen the 80cfm Panasonics for about $100 on ebay; not too pricey and they are silent.

I am not sure of my flower footprint yet - will post it when I know.

As far as yield, I'm growing only for my very modest, personal consumption; which is zero atm. One of the reasons that I'm growing is to make my own anti-anxiety/anti-depressive meds without having to buy retail from dealers. So, I'll be happy with plants that grow out healthy with a small/modest quality yield in a secure manner.

I've seen/read the mesh pencil holder DIY along with the netipot DIY scrubber by Sugabear. I understand the size you mean.

Thanks again ;-)

mini

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

mm, I don't always read as well as I should. That remote 150HPS from HTG is one of the best deals out there, IMO. HTG ships discreet and they don't charge x-tra for shipping.

For flower, you'll need about 2.5 to 3 square feet of grow space. Check the dimensions of the reflector. You'll want to be able to get it inside your cab/tent with the door(s) shut. If your footprint is rectangular, the bulb element needs to be parallel with the short wall to give the best light dispersion.

Another thing to consider might be to ditch the reflector and hang the bulb vertical. You can put plants 360 degrees around the bulb and yields should be larger than horizontal. If you go vertical, a square or round/octagonal footprint is best so you can fit grow pots all the way around.

I saw the LED you linked to. LEDs are in the early stages of effectiveness and the more expensive arrays do a decent job. Lesser expensive LEDs might be good for veg or supplemental lighting but that's about it. HID (hps) is very effective and you won't notice 150w on your power bill. When dialed in, a horizontal 150hps setup can get you 3 to 4 ounces with more possible. A vertical setup might get you 5.

 

[mini-mota]

mm, I don't always read as well as I should. That remote 150HPS from HTG is one of the best deals out there, IMO. HTG ships discreet and they don't charge x-tra for shipping.

I assume that you like the remote ballast better than the built in due to ability to divide (and conquer) the heat sources - the ballast being the highest heat producer, right? I'm not sure if I will have a separate chamber for the ballast but I suppose that I could hide it outside the cab somewhere . . . I'd prefer to have 99.99% of everything concealed though for stealth.

For flower, you'll need about 2.5 to 3 square feet of grow space. Check the dimensions of the reflector. You'll want to be able to get it inside your cab/tent with the door(s) shut.

I think the Home Depot prefab 34.75"H x 24"W x 15.25"D cab is about 6cubic ft, with a little over 2square feet of floor space. This size of cab is about what I'm looking for.

If your footprint is rectangular, the bulb element needs to be parallel with the short wall to give the best light dispersion.

So the length of the element | needs to be parallel to the shortest wall? I would have thought it would be the other way around. Please explain why, since it seems counter-intuitive (to newbish me).

Another thing to consider might be to ditch the reflector and hang the bulb vertical. You can put plants 360 degrees around the bulb and yields should be larger than horizontal. If you go vertical, a square or round/octagonal footprint is best so you can fit grow pots all the way around.

At this point, it is most likely that I will have rectangular cabs/footprints. Also, I consider vertical grows to be basically vertical SCROGs. While they appeal to me, I'm going to try for a more modest SOG. That way, if (when) various things go wrong with plants, I can remove/move without too much trouble. Small SOGs seem to be the safest bet for me until I get some experience under my belt.

I saw the LED you linked to. LEDs are in the early stages of effectiveness and the more expensive arrays do a decent job. Lesser expensive LEDs might be good for veg or supplemental lighting but that's about it. HID (hps) is very effective and you won't notice 150w on your power bill. When dialed in, a horizontal 150hps setup can get you 3 to 4 ounces with more possible. A vertical setup might get you 5.

Good call. I will hold off on buying LEDs until the prices drop and there is a larger knowledge base on how to use them effectively.

Besides the HPS setups, I am also open to T5 flouros or PL-Ls. I'm pretty sure I can set up some CFL bulbs in a pinch. I did purchase 4 x circular, porcelain lampholders at Walmart for $3 each. These bases can accommodate any CFL or incandescent bulb up to 660W.

Although I really like HTGs high output T5s like this, they are too long to fit in a 24" wide cab:
http://www.htgsupply.com/viewproduct.asp?productID=50100
Most of the prefab mdf cabs that I like are 24"W , so this is an issue.
I would not mind making my own cab but . . . I have some concerns:

Pros for making my own cab:
*exact dimensions that I need for lights, gear, chambers
*more durable if I use plywood instead of mdf

Cons for making my own cab:
*may attract more attention (upon completion/use) than a prefab due to uniqueness of size/shape; i.e. - It may not look right/fit in with the rest of the decor.
*cost of materials will probably exceed that of modifying a prefab
*might be asked what I'm making and why am I making it; i.e.- attract unwanted attention.
*I might have trouble making a proper door and hanging it right.

Thanks again for taking the time and thought to respond, Disco ;-)
I appreciate your input and advice.

- mini

 

[FreezerBoy]

Thanks, FreezerBoy. What model of Vortex do you recommend? Also, any recommendations on the supplier for one? I'm still wondering how loud the S&Ps are. . . How do the Vortexes (Vortices ;-P ) compare in noise level to the S&Ps? Any idea on sones?

Vortex? None! A Vortex screams like a Banshee with it's foot in a vise using a bull horn set to 11. We're talking Cape Canaveral at liftoff loud. Unless you can keep it under lock and key, stealth and centrifugals do not mix. I had an Elicent (5-10 dB quieter than the Vortex) With the garage door open, using: insulated duct, speed control, fan isolation box, muffler, all buried under a pile of foam, the elicent could be heard across the street at my neighbors door.

If you can lock up the fan in the attic, basement or secret bunker that no one ever enters, that's different but, anyone in the room with the fan will know and will ask. Questions bad, very, very bad.

S&P gives no dB or sone ratings. Quiet as they are, they are not silent. You'll still need a patsy like my freezer or, a mask like a box fan or aquarium.

So the length of the element | needs to be parallel to the shortest wall? I would have thought it would be the other way around. Please explain why, since it seems counter-intuitive (to newbish me).

Lamps throw little to no light forward or aft, light radiates out the sides. Point an HID at the wall and it throws a shadow. Hanging parallel to the short side allows you to lower the lamp AND increase footprint at the same time provided the grow is rectangular rather than square.

 

[mini-mota]

Vortex? None! A Vortex screams like a Banshee with it's foot in a vise using a bull horn set to 11. We're talking Cape Canaveral at liftoff loud. Unless you can keep it under lock and key, stealth and centrifugals do not mix. I had an Elicent (5-10 dB quieter than the Vortex) With the garage door open, using: insulated duct, speed control, fan isolation box, muffler, all buried under a pile of foam, the elicent could be heard across the street at my neighbors door.

If you can lock up the fan in the attic, basement or secret bunker that no one ever enters, that's different but, anyone in the room with the fan will know and will ask. Questions bad, very, very bad.

. . . . um . . . . ok . . . I think I am done pissing myself from laughing so hard! Your metaphors made my day ;-)

S&P gives no dB or sone ratings. Quiet as they are, they are not silent. You'll still need a patsy like my freezer or, a mask like a box fan or aquarium.

Sounds like I should try to stick with a Panasonic or something quiet then since I'm going for heavy stealth. The sone ratings on the 80 CFM Panasonic Whisper is at .7( I think). I believe that 2 sones or less is pretty much silent. Insulation/etc. will help as well. Do you think that an 80cfm or 100cfm bathroom exhaust fan is enough ventilation for an enclosure of these dimensions: 34.75"H x 24"W x 15.25"D?

Lamps throw little to no light forward or aft, light radiates out the sides. Point an HID at the wall and it throws a shadow. Hanging parallel to the short side allows you to lower the lamp AND increase footprint at the same time provided the grow is rectangular rather than square.

Excellent explanation and diagrams. You really helped educate me on this aspect of HID lighting, Freezer. Now I understand why I have to make sure that any HID housing/reflector's length does not exceed the depth of my (rectangular) enclosure before I purchase/attempt to install it. I really appreciate the amount of thought and time that you put into your response.

Thank you!

- mini

 

[FreezerBoy]

Your metaphors made my day ;-)

You like metaphors, cool, try this one. Across the street it was no longer heart attack loud. Just irritatingly loud like a cricket in the next bedroom. "What is this sound, that has no excuse to exist in a residential neighborhood, doing at my door?" Questions, bad.

A lion roars at the zoo, nobody notices because the sound belongs there. Lion roars in your bedroom, you'll hear real fast. The wrong sound in the wrong place triggers 5 million years of survival instincts.

Never tried Panasonic Whisperfans but, no fan is silent. I'd still suggest some sort of white noise generator. Something people can see and blame. My freezer is audible throughout the garage but, freezers are supposed to make noise. Show them the noise and the noise disappears.