12/12 From Seed: A Different Way To Grow

[Truth]

um, if you have a 6 inch to a 1 foot clone, it will definitely finish quicker than a seed. the whole point of clones is to save preferred genetics and make sure you have females for budding. a clone takes a week to two weeks to root, which even after 2 weeks in veg from seed, should still be smaller than a clone. take a 1 foot clone, and a seedling, and put both on 12/12 after rooting, and the clone will be larger and finish quicker. also seeds root immediately after germination, so you really can only go by when a clone is rooted to, but even when you add the time it takes to root, it still finishes faster than seeds. plus with seeds, you may lose 50% of your bud potential to males. with clones, you are certain to get a female, and not waste any time growing males. so in terms of yield, it wins there too.

 

[sugabear_II]

I'm going to first say that I really do approve of this method whole heartidly. I have been recommending to people that seed plants never be given more than 3 weeks veg time prior to flowering for micro and cabinet growers out there. In my experience 2 weeks is often times ideal.

And I have found that since I grow hydro dwc I still get a very bushy plant for scrog. With this method I can consistently grow an 8-9 week flower period plant from seed in 10-12 weeks yielding a minimum of an ounce and up to 2 ounces per plant.

I have never grown 12/12 from seed but have always employed very short veg times to keep my seed plants under control in a cabinet environment.

with that said...

12/12 From Seed: A Different Way To Grow

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/19355IMG_0522.JPG
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Some critics claim that the amount of the main cannabinoid, THC, produced by plants grown this way is less than plants that are allowed to mature with a vegetation phase. This opinion is based on a study done many years ago, well before modern gardening techniques took hold, and almost certainly did not test any plants that were grown using this lighting regimen. New tests must be done, that’s all there is to it. More importantly, the empirical evidence from those who have grown this way, and the experience of their friends who have smoked these plants, is that this cannabis is just as potent as any they have ever smoked (strain variety taken into account, of course). If there is any difference in THC percentages, it is minute, and not noticeable to the cannabis consumer.

I have to anidotely provide my experience on the above... and that is to say that I have found that some strains will show a slight increase in potency from a clone as compared to the seed plant mother. In particular I have noticed this difference with sativa dominant strains - in two cases; NL x c99 I found that a clone of the seed plant flowered after the original seed plant (i.e. I flowered the seed plant, took a clone and flowered the clone starting when the seed plant had finished, making the clone aprox 2 months older than the seed plant when put into flower) the other case was with wood horse trainwreck again I grew started to flower the clone long after the mom had been harvested.

On the other hand I have grown several other strains that were just as potent in the original grow from seed as they were from clone. I would say the majority of strains fall into this later category in my case these were indica dominat or highland short season sativas.

but to add confusion to the matter I will throw in that in the one long flower period strain (12 weeks) I grew I don't think it mattered at all.

So basically I think there are some short flower period sativa dominant strains that will show a slight increase in potency when vegged longer.

But for the majority of strains the difference will be nill.

........................................................................................................................

Other thoughts on the subject;

seed plants show an incredible growth spurt in stretch as compared to clones of the same plant.

seed plants show more bud growth in the last 2-3 weeks of flower but tend to be slower at the start of flower as compared to clones of the same plant which tend to have a more linear bud growth rate.

Yield on a seed plant that is 4" tall will be higher than on a 4" clone if flowered at same time.

-suga

p.s. I'm just sharing my experience having grown several strains from seed and then a clone of the seed plant under same conditions.

 

[sugabear_II]

QUESTION:

Soon I'll be looking for some mom plants to keep. I want to be able to sex the plants ASAP from seed. Should I 12/12 the plants, sex them and then revert to 18/6; or would it be better to veg from seed at 18/6 and then 12/12 at 3/4 weeks to sex?

Is there any risk in using 12/12 to sex and then reverting to a vegetative light cycle?

why not clone the plant once sex is shown and root the clones allowing them to reveg and just let your seed plants finish. This way by the time the clones are back to normal you will have harvested and know which moms to keep.

I always take clones of my seed plants after the show sex and are just finished with stretch (2-3 weeks in) - I find that there are so many nice little shoots on the lower part of the plant that I am trimming off anyways to make into clones.

just my .02

-suga

 

[Elephant Man]

I like the 'decay timer', if I wasn't perpetual, I would definately look into one...thanks SatGhost.

And welcome Blunt Africa, glad you joined the party.

IMO, this method cannot be compared to a SOG of clones. Has everyone forgotton the extra cost and labor of moms, vegetative and cloning room?

I personally am quite excited at the variety of meds I will have in 2 months, I can germ whatever I want, whenever I want, and be smoking it 2-3 months later...while many are just taking cuttings. 50 different strains if I wanted. I am willing to sacrifice yeild for that, but I'm not entirely sure that will be the case, especially since now veg is gone, and lights were moved into flower, I have quite the area to fill will seedlings.

Later

 

[Blunt Africa]

Maybe I can help out here a bit with the little quarrel above regarding seeds vs clones.

In my 80L Cinnamon bubbler I originally had 4 seeds germ, unfortunately one of them died very quickly. What I did do is to take a cutting from a NYCD I've got that is just starting to flower and put it into the place where the 4th Cinnamon was.

A week later under 12/12 this clone had rooted in the bubbler and the Cinnamon's roots are at the same stage or thereabouts, hence the plants are basically at the same stage. The clone has just rooted and so have the Cinnamon's...

They are in the same bubbler getting the same nutes, everthing is identical so let's see what happens....

 

[JWP]

this thread makes we want to switch now at three weeks and kind of mad i didnt go 12/12 from seed

12/12 is a great idea but in reality the plant can only mature as fast as it can mature. So if your going 12/12 and the flowering time for your strain is 55 days its still going to take 55 days no matter what. So you would count your flowering time from when you see your 1st preflowers at around 3 weeks from seed. That’s a total of 76 days. If you on 18/6 for the first 3 weeks then go 12/12 it’s pretty much the same.

If anyone is experiencing results that contradict this statement I would love to see some evidence. Like pix of mature trichomes or whatever other evidence you may have.

Edit: I grow 12/12 and in my experiance its allways the flowering time + 2-4 weeks untill they are fully matured.

 

[Elephant Man]

12/12 is a great idea but in reality the plant can only mature as fast as it can mature. So if your going 12/12 and the flowering time for your strain is 55 days its still going to take 55 days no matter what. So you would count your flowering time from when you see your 1st preflowers at around 3 weeks from seed. That’s a total of 71 days. If you on 18/6 for the first 3 weeks then go 12/12 it’s pretty much the same.

If anyone is experiencing results that contradict this statement I would love to see some evidence. Like pix of mature trichomes or whatever other evidence you may have.

Exactly my thinking...some sativas with 3 or 4 week 'veg' (maturing) are going to be big already, and indoor is all about penetration. Why veg? Closet growers I would think would be all over this method...and in my case, 6 months of the year, it is too hot to have lights on during the day.

Another good point that was mentioned early on, is that this method can promote more females than vegging, I'll let you guys know how that goes for me.

 

[Mad HattersWrld]

I think munkie has a great experiment for this thread\method to have some credibility. looks like he will finish in 3 months germ to harvest with three different strains. If it yeilds nice on all three strains then the method works for what his requirements were(no veg room)

 

[atmosphere]

3 weeks fom seeds, flowering females !! when you use time to veg it will always take more time than that. As long as seed plants are not matured in veg they will start maturing as soon as you put them on 12/12 ,this always takes a certain time

It takes only little space to do that 3 weeks on 12/12 . Lots of pots on a small space . The males will be very small when they show sex , only using a very small amount of space.

After about 10 days from seed:

3 weeks from seed ! flowering females that will develop faster than clones


another grow with 12/12 from th estart plants in th efront and a few Indica's that vegged in the back .

the same room same plants a few weeks later ,plant sizes a more the same now ,as was planned


Keeping moms takes more time and space !

 

[Guest]

I like the 'decay timer', if I wasn't perpetual, I would definitely look into one...thanks SatGhost.

perhaps DJ's "trade secret"? lol

IMO, this method cannot be compared to a SOG of clones. Has everyone forgotten the extra cost and labor of moms, vegetative and cloning room?

exactly. if you look at the GE calculator again you can see that anything with 'veg' or 'root' is automatically 0, that says a lot about the efficiency of this method. here's the updated GE calculator for 12/12 growers, as you can see it's much simpler:

FlowerEnergyTime = (FlowerWattage × (FlowerWattageOnTime ÷ 1000)) × FlowerTime
Energy Efficiency = DryYield ÷ FlowerWattageTime
Space Efficiency = DryYield ÷ (FlowerGrowArea x FlowerTime)
Garden Efficiency = (Energy Efficiency + Space Efficiency) ÷ 2

I personally am quite excited at the variety of meds I will have in 2 months, I can germ whatever I want, whenever I want, and be smoking it 2-3 months later...while many are just taking cuttings. 50 different strains if I wanted. I am willing to sacrifice yield for that, but I'm not entirely sure that will be the case, especially since now veg is gone, and lights were moved into flower, I have quite the area to fill will seedlings.

that's another good point. many jars containing different strains, pheno's, cure times... and possibly greater yield? did someone say "no fun"?

 

[Haggis123]

Well guy's thought I would post ye all a quick update of my AK48 12/12 from seed.
It defo looks like it's going to be more than a 1 gram'er...lol...but we wont go down that road anymore...lol.

We are currently on day 4 of week 7 and it's starting to swell up mighty fine.
I am looking to start the flush in the next couple of days, but I was looking at the trich's a few days ago and they're all still clear.
Is it best waiting for them to start turning before I start the flush or will they start turning during the flush ???

 

[Hal]

Nice girl there Haggis! Looks like she is putting on some of her post-teen fattiness that happens to so many of the females we love to love.

I'm getting real close to chopping down my girls too. Probably will happen on Saturday, it will be day 63 of flowering. The trichomes seem to be mostly cloudy and clear, not very many ambers (last time I checked though was a few days ago...I'm assuming that there hasn't been that big a change), but that ok, I like the buzz to be more chatty than couchlock anyway. And because I have 5 girls, they will likely be at different points in their ripeness anyway, so good chance one or two might be a tad more stoney. Gotta say the phenotypes in these plants is pretty darn similar for Nirvana stock.

I have one question that I would love some feedback on though. I have been flushing my girls (only watering with straight water, no nutes, to the point of considerable run-off out the bottom of the container) for the past 2-3 weeks. Not really seeing any yellowing of the fan leaves at all yet...just one or two leaves, and only a little bit on those. I would have figured that the nitrogen would have been getting sucked out of the fan leaves by now....especially considering that I am growing in very small containers (about 1 liter), and there isn't much soil in there. Makes me wonder whether the 12/12 from seed method doesnt' eat up the nitrogen very much due to their not being the nitrogen hungry veg phase.

Any thoughts?

 

[Haggis123]

Thanks for the comp's Hal.

Sorry couldn't answer your question for you.

Got any pics of your girls ???

 

[Elephant Man]

Nice girl there Haggis! Looks like she is putting on some of her post-teen fattiness that happens to so many of the females we love to love.

I'm getting real close to chopping down my girls too. Probably will happen on Saturday, it will be day 63 of flowering. The trichomes seem to be mostly cloudy and clear, not very many ambers (last time I checked though was a few days ago...I'm assuming that there hasn't been that big a change), but that ok, I like the buzz to be more chatty than couchlock anyway. And because I have 5 girls, they will likely be at different points in their ripeness anyway, so good chance one or two might be a tad more stoney. Gotta say the phenotypes in these plants is pretty darn similar for Nirvana stock.

I have one question that I would love some feedback on though. I have been flushing my girls (only watering with straight water, no nutes, to the point of considerable run-off out the bottom of the container) for the past 2-3 weeks. Not really seeing any yellowing of the fan leaves at all yet...just one or two leaves, and only a little bit on those. I would have figured that the nitrogen would have been getting sucked out of the fan leaves by now....especially considering that I am growing in very small containers (about 1 liter), and there isn't much soil in there. Makes me wonder whether the 12/12 from seed method doesnt' eat up the nitrogen very much due to their not being the nitrogen hungry veg phase.

Any thoughts?

Are you growing organic? Mine rarely yellow either.

 

[Hal]

Hey Haggis...

Nothin Fancy...a group shot of the girls. The tallest is about 37" or so, the shortest about 30".





Hey EM...

Yeah, I'm going organic. That would be interesting if that is the reason there isn't any yellowing going on. Thanks for that info.

 

[sugabear_II]

well technically not 12/12 from seed I thought you might like to see this female seeds ice plant I vegged for 1.5 weeks from germ then into flower.

here's a picture at 6 days 12/12.

and here we are at 65 days of 12/12









I'm letting it go longer than some might - here it is this week 73 days of 12/12



I'll chop later this week

so mayb 85 days from seed to bud - could have been 75 days if I had taken at 65 days - this is a 9 week strain...

 

[atmosphere]

The plant at the pic is about 16 day's old then , am i right?

 

[sugabear_II]

atmosphere - yes the first picture was when the plant was 16 days old, counting from when I put the seed in the wet paper towel.

 

[Haggis123]

Are you growing organic? Mine rarely yellow either.

No I do hydro..

Nice looking girls there Hal. Gonna have a good smoke there dude..

 

[Berry_Coughin']

There are people on Marijuana Passion.com who believe this is IMPOSSIBLE.... I tried to explain my position on this method and was banned.... wtf eace: