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MKIVc question

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BrownGuy420

Member
Hey everyone, I am using a MKIVc and I love the machine and she seems to run real well. I am using the 900gram dewaxing column and the machine is pulling amazing oil. Only issue is the percentage of return from my material, I am only seeing about a 5% return on my runs.

I have tried running anywhere from 1lb to the whole 2lbs in the column. I have found that getting 2lbs in tends to get a better clearer end product and my guess is better contact with the cold from the dry ice. I use a trs21 pump and will pull with it once the column has sat for an hour with anywhere from 4 to 4.5lbs in the column chillin. I pull the dump valve and shortly after the liquid valve and let the suction from the pump pull everything cold into the collection pot which the 4 or so lbs of gas reaches the PTFE seal at the top of my shatter platter.

I pull all the butane and pull to -15hg then pull and scrape oil and vac. I feel I am pulling everything into the collection pot but yield seems low...5% or 50g for every 900g....seems low. Also it seems that I have gas loss from anywhere from .8lb to a whole lb....my guess is its in the weed? maybe thats where the rest of the oil is at?

I feel pulling to -15 is fine and I dont see any standing butane in machine at cleanout....slightly wet material tho.....any help will do, hopefully GreyWolf the man himself can chime in on this one...THX
 
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Old Gold

Active member
Gray Wolf said:
How much butane are you passing?
Click to expand...

BrownGuy420 said:
I use a trs21 pump and will pull with it once the column has sat for an hour with anywhere from 4 to 4.5lbs in the column chillin.
Click to expand...
This is likely your answer as far as yield concerns. I pass about 9 lbs of solvent per 2-2.5lbs material. And I do that twice usually, sometimes even thrice, if I pack her more full.
What kind of material are you using? Indoor/outdoor, nug runs, fine sugar leaf, combination of sugar and fan leaves, etc.

I've lost up to that much to the column before, usually when running in super cold ambient temperature and not giving the column any applied heat during recovery. Usually not a whole lb, but depending on temperatures packing density, and the pump being used, you could certainly lose a lb to the column.

BTW, what are dimensions on the material tube for the 900g dewax colum?


BrownGuy420 said:
I feel pulling to -15 is fine and I dont see any standing butane in machine at cleanout....slightly wet material tho....
Click to expand...

When you say slightly wet material, I assume you're referring to inside of the column, not the final product, correct? Try filling the sleeve with mildly warm water near the end of recovery, say, as you approach vacuum pressures. That may help recover the last bit of vapors.

Also a reminder why columns should be unloaded in as safe of an environment as you operate it in! Unless you've given plenty of time to vent with proper temperatures. Reference GW's post-blast, expansive vapor mechanism for unpacking a column .. :smoky: heehee
 
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BrownGuy420

Member
Old Gold said:
This is likely your answer as far as yield concerns. I pass about 9 lbs of solvent per 2-2.5lbs material. And I do that twice usually, sometimes even thrice, if I pack her more full.
What kind of material are you using? Indoor/outdoor, nug runs, fine sugar leaf, combination of sugar and fan leaves, etc.

I've lost up to that much to the column before, usually when running in super cold ambient temperature and not giving the column any applied heat during recovery. Usually not a whole lb, but depending on temperatures packing density, and the pump being used, you could certainly lose a lb to the column.

BTW, what are dimensions on the material tube for the 900g dewax colum?

I am only passing 4 to 4.5lbs through the column due to that is what is filling the column. I then let tane sit in the dewax column for about 60 min then dump, this is all going down in the dewax column presently. I was running a 3"x36" material column and then the 3"x36" dewax column and would fill material column and soak for 10min and then release and let it shoot over to the dewax column and I would apply heat to the material column to expose of the left over gas. Yields were about the same but I have only been running 1 pass this entire time. Is this the issue? Can you run 2 passes through the material if your packing it all in the dewax column and not with seperate material column. I feel like when the seperate material column was in play I had more scenerios where gas gets trapped in the dewax column and vac will pull to -15hg and on breakdown there's gas stuck in the dewax column ready to spill out....DANGER!....So I opted to choose the one dewax column packed tight and doing this was seems to give a nicer product anyways. At the moment this is all outdoor Oregon trim.

When you say slightly wet material, I assume you're referring to inside of the column, not the final product, correct? Try filling the sleeve with mildly warm water near the end of recovery, say, as you approach vacuum pressures. That may help recover the last bit of vapors.

wouldn't this melt out all the dry ice? It most definately would work I would believe but I don't want to melt all that ice...its kinda costly around here, or at least goes hella quick.

Also a reminder why columns should be unloaded in as safe of an environment as you operate it in! Unless you've given plenty of time to vent with proper temperatures. Reference GW's post-blast, expansive vapor mechanism for unpacking a column .. :smoky: heehee
Click to expand...

Thank you guys for the wisdom, hopefully we can straighten me out on these low harvests...lol:dance013:
 
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BrownGuy420

Member



everything else seems right on with the oil just the overall yeild...First pic is of the old way I was using the machine and now I don't use the material column and just pack everything into the dewax and run it through there.
 
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Old Gold

Active member
You can definitely run a second pass after recovery. I suggest you do. As long as you've recovered to -10" Hg or lower, or at least enough so that you won't overfill your collection pot on a second dump, you can run right away. You've already previously vacuumed the system, so no air has been introduced, and you're good to go. You won't reach full vacuum due to the vapors still in the column as well as solvent in the collection pot product. By the time you're at -10" Hg (I go for -15" or -20" Hg), the material column has re-frozen itself, as the pump-assisted recovery of vapors cools it down plenty.

To come to a decent conclusion on the matter, recover as you normally do, pour or scrape your collection, and set it back up for another run. See what yields on run 1 vs run 2 vs run 3.

BrownGuy420 said:
wouldn't this melt out all the dry ice? It most definately would work I would believe but I don't want to melt all that ice...its kinda costly around here, or at least goes hella quick.
Click to expand...

If you fill it with dry ice and alcohol/acetone, it will reach temps of -78°F. Put a ball valve on that drain port, and drain the acetone/alcohol into a metal or glass bucket. Then you can fill with warm water.
This should also save you spendy trips to the store, as the alcohol/acetone is reusable and doesn't require nearly as much dry ice.
 
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BrownGuy420

Member
Old Gold said:
You can definitely run a second pass after recovery. I suggest you do. As long as you've recovered to -10" Hg or lower, or at least enough so that you won't overfill your collection pot on a second dump, you can run right away. You've already previously vacuumed the system, so no air has been introduced, and you're good to go. You won't reach full vacuum due to the vapors still in the column as well as solvent in the collection pot product. By the time you're at -10" Hg (I go for -15" or -20" Hg), the material column has re-frozen itself, as the pump-assisted recovery of vapors cools it down plenty.

To come to a decent conclusion on the matter, recover as you normally do, pour or scrape your collection, and set it back up for another run. See what yields on run 1 vs run 2 vs run 3.



If you fill it with dry ice and alcohol/acetone, it will reach temps of -78°F. Put a ball valve on that drain port, and drain the acetone/alcohol into a metal or glass bucket. Then you can fill with warm water.
This should also save you spendy trips to the store, as the alcohol/acetone is reusable and doesn't require nearly as much dry ice.
Click to expand...

Awesome advice brotha Thx! I will try exactly that, my help just arrived and we're packing the column as I type....I'll let you know how a dbl pass goes...thx
 
O

Old Gold

Active member
BrownGuy420 said:
I feel like when the seperate material column was in play I had more scenerios where gas gets trapped in the dewax column and vac will pull to -15hg and on breakdown there's gas stuck in the dewax column ready to spill out....DANGER!....So I opted to choose the one dewax column packed tight and doing this was seems to give a nicer product anyways
Click to expand...

My mention of GW's expansive vapor column unloading, basically he accidentally left his column shut off overnight after a full recovery. The tiny amounts of liquid/gas solvent reached ambient temperatures and built up pressure. When he came back to remove the triclamp, the column lid was shot up in the air (DANGER!) and the confetti party began! I think he or someone else even claimed they use it as a regular unloading mechanism.. I wouldn't lol
I've seen vapors pouring out as I open one end of the column as well. They're there.

You could also set up your system as pictured, but switch your columns (not what's inside of them!) Use the wall-mounted jacketed column as a pre-chiller for butane at the injection point. Then dump when your solvent is at the desired temperature. No soak would be done in this method. Selectivity comes with the temperature and contact time.
 
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BrownGuy420

Member
Old Gold said:
You could also set up your system as pictured, but switch your columns (not what's inside of them!) Use the wall-mounted jacketed column as a pre-chiller for butane at the injection point. Then dump when your solvent is at the desired temperature. No soak would be done in this method. Selectivity comes with the temperature and contact time.
Click to expand...

I like the way you think bro, that sounds like it would work! Thats how I used to run was ice cold tane thru the material instead of icing the material in the column like people do. So I would guess change to a top feed so that tane falls into the dewax column? then just use pump and vacum from the material column and collection pot to pull tane in, recover then allow the -10hg to pull new tane into the dewax column...let chill...blow thru material again...recover and pour. Pretty much a dbl pass with super chilled tane.
 
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BrownGuy420

Member
Quick thought if I went that route wouldn't it be just as efficient but bigger yield to just toss the tank in dry ice or dry ice alcohol mix and chill the entire can, strap up the 4"x48" column (not dewaxing) and just push like 11 or 12lbs of gas through....recover...pass another 11 or 12lbs thru....recover and pour?

Whats the ups and downs to not using dewax column vs just subzero tane passed straight thru the tube?

Thanks my friend
 
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Old Gold

Active member
Soaking in the dewax column will give higher yields per amount of solvent, but imo isn't worth the time and amount of dry ice required for each run. It will take much less time to chill solvent without the material, or to increase the surface area of cold-contact for the solvent stream (i.e. condensing coil).

The reason chilling the entire solvent tank doesn't always work is because you will need vapor pressure to push the sludgy, sub-zero butane through the hose lines. I will be getting full validation on all this very soon myself. I'll try to set up my sleeve column as a pre-chiller, and compare that to the condenser coil that is about to arrive. I didn't enjoy doing the 45 minute soak in the giant sleeved column too much.

Maybe someone else can chime in, as I haven't tried it yet. I doubt it's be necessary, but has anyone had to pressure assist the dump when using another column as the solvent pre-chiller?
I imagine it's also not that necessary considering the help of gravity, vacuum feed, and pump assist....or simply, if the solvent stream never really has to fight gravity (condenser coil directly above the material column?)
 
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BrownGuy420

Member
Old Gold said:
Soaking in the dewax column will give higher yields per amount of solvent, but imo isn't worth the time and amount of dry ice required for each run. It will take much less time to chill solvent without the material, or to increase the surface area of cold-contact for the solvent stream (i.e. condensing coil).

The reason chilling the entire solvent tank doesn't always work is because you will need vapor pressure to push the sludgy, sub-zero butane through the hose lines. I will be getting full validation on all this very soon myself. I'll try to set up my sleeve column as a pre-chiller, and compare that to the condenser coil that is about to arrive. I didn't enjoy doing the 45 minute soak in the giant sleeved column too much.

Maybe someone else can chime in, as I haven't tried it yet. I doubt it's be necessary, but has anyone had to pressure assist the dump when using another column as the solvent pre-chiller?
I imagine it's also not that necessary considering the help of gravity, vacuum feed, and pump assist....or simply, if the solvent stream never really has to fight gravity (condenser coil directly above the material column?)
Click to expand...

So I ran today and packed the dewax column like I typically do and put my starting 4.4lbs into the dewax column with material. Let it sit about 35min and then dumped cold and once pump pulled down to -15hg I refilled column with gas but only could squeeze in 2 more lbs due to that on a cold dump I usually only pull the first 2lbs or so and setting in 85 degree water to recover the other lb or so (usually lose about .8 to 1lb in material) Doing it this was we were able to up my yield avg. from 50g every 900g to 84g!:dance013: so with just 2lbs more we were able to raise yield by 34g....WOW!


I see what you say about just using cold tane in the tank, would vapor assist into the cold tane take care of that issue? Tomorrow I am thinking about packing the 3"x36" regular spool with 900g and chill tane 50# bottle with dry ice for about 30min before I run and just push 9lbs through the material and recover. I don't have anything safe at the moment to hold the dewax column up so I can't use it to chill tane in yet. Im curious about just running icy tane thru the material...I used to do this with the ironfist and had great results, just figured a dewax column would be more efficient but it seems more of a pain in the butt. Maybe better with older trim but with fresh, nicely cured trim it seems to always blast pretty nice and translucent.
 
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Old Gold

Active member
I haven't done that, so I can't say how it should work. Worth noting you've pulled it off in the past.

Also, there ya go! That's a nice yield for just 2 more lbs solvent. I did mean to say to recover to -15" Hg in lukewarm water. Anywhere from 50F-85F is OK in my books.
 
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BrownGuy420

Member
Old Gold said:
I haven't done that, so I can't say how it should work. Worth noting you've pulled it off in the past.

Also, there ya go! That's a nice yield for just 2 more lbs solvent. I did mean to say to recover to -15" Hg in lukewarm water. Anywhere from 50F-85F is OK in my books.
Click to expand...

yup I recover at 80 which has been pulling great terps on the oil. I will pressure assist tomorrow and update on how pushing a straight chilled 9lbs through the column will do.

Maybe GW will chime in with all his wisdom on the difference if any
 
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shiftypickle

Member
do not ever run solvent through your material more than once, if you cant pull it all in one pass you are doing something far more incorrectly than just losing yield. i only run 8lbs of solvent total to extract a 4x24 and less than 15 for a 48". dry ice columns are a shitty tech (no offense, you didnt invent them) what you should be doing is chilling your solvent inline to your system and precluding any inactive water solubles from the extraction in the first place

this is my process: with pumps running, inject solvent until liquid reaches the collection spool and close dump valve immediately, soak for 30sec, dump 2lbs of solvent then soak for another 30sec, dump column and allow additional 2-3lbs to flush column. i have a positive pressure vapor assist plumbed from my pump outlet which i use to clear latent liquid from my column, i allow this to run, looping vapor pressure through my system until i see no liquid dripping from my column, i then close my dump valve and allow the vapor from the column to be drawn out the top and into my lines, this keeps any waxy garbage from dripping into my tasty gold while recovering. i would highly advise talking to GW about a heating system for your columns which will aid in flipping the butane phase from liquid to gas and will ensure a total recovery, even without my heating system i only lose .25lb per run
 
Gray Wolf

Gray Wolf

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BrownGuy420 said:
yup I recover at 80 which has been pulling great terps on the oil. I will pressure assist tomorrow and update on how pushing a straight chilled 9lbs through the column will do.

Maybe GW will chime in with all his wisdom on the difference if any
Click to expand...

We don't use a dry ice column, just chilled butane, and it does a good job limiting wax pickup.
 
B

BrownGuy420

Member
Gray Wolf said:
We don't use a dry ice column, just chilled butane, and it does a good job limiting wax pickup.
Click to expand...

Thanks GW we are chilling the tank right now as we speak and are going to push 9lbs straight through the material and see what happens. With having a pump and bottom feed I should be able to fill with 4 or so lbs and dump and then fill with another 4 or so lbs and dump only closing the dump valve long enough to fill column. Does this sound about right?
 
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MrSpectre

Member
I use about 2.5lb solvent per lb material and I'm getting 25% yields on certain materials. I ran two identical runs back to back with 2lb of trim; one with 13lb solvent (no ball valve) one with 5lb solvent (with ball valve) and both yielded identical 130g (14%) slabs. Wasn't even a gram difference. When using a closed loop the ball valve is key as you can take advantage of the pressure/saturation of the material whereas without it you are essentially open blasting in a sealed environment. Just my two pennies :)
 
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worker630

New member
In my experience a ton of oil gets left in the column with a bottom flood, single volume and dump pass. It's even worse with a chilled column as the tayne and oil is much more viscous. From a 700g trim run I got maybe 30g running as the OP described. I ran the same column again the traditional way and pulled out at least another 100. Terpp has some instructions on running their sleeved columns if you email them.
 
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