Protekt cloudy?

Kygiacomo!!! · Jun 16, 2015

Hey guys what do u think is the reason for protekt going cloudy on me? i get the water out of a stream in the hills and every time i add protekt to the water its going cloudy. i add the protekt first just like dyna gro says. it does not go cloudy on me when i use water from here at the house. this water source is at one of my plots and it saves me alot of water carrying uphill so i dont want to have to abandon the close water source. i just need to identify what is the cause and then work to correct it so i can get the benefits from silica and the close water source.

StoneyK · Jun 16, 2015

Maybe the stream water is more mineral rich?

Diatomaceous earth is a great option for silica too.
I think its actually better than the protekt I believe the potasium silicate is actually less usable than the food grade diatomaceous earth. Its a different type of silica cant for the life of me remeber the name :/

krunchbubble · Jun 16, 2015

Kygiacomo!!! said:
Hey guys what do u think is the reason for protekt going cloudy on me? i get the water out of a stream in the hills and every time i add protekt to the water its going cloudy. i add the protekt first just like dyna gro says. it does not go cloudy on me when i use water from here at the house. this water source is at one of my plots and it saves me alot of water carrying uphill so i dont want to have to abandon the close water source. i just need to identify what is the cause and then work to correct it so i can get the benefits from silica and the close water source.

The protekt is reacting to something organic in your water....

Its not serious....

Kygiacomo!!! · Jun 16, 2015

StoneyK said:
Maybe the stream water is more mineral rich?

Diatomaceous earth is a great option for silica too.
I think its actually better than the protekt I believe the potasium silicate is actually less usable than the food grade diatomaceous earth. Its a different type of silica cant for the life of me remeber the name :/

i been thinking about the De. how do u use it? mix it into soil or in a gallon of water? or top dress it and then water.

krunchbubble said:
The protekt is reacting to something organic in your water....

Its not serious....

hey Krunch im not sure what it is reacting to bc its just a stream out in the mountains of appalachia. when it goes cloudy like that will my plants still be getting the added benefit of silica or is it just so fked up and im wasting it? thanks

StoneyK · Jun 16, 2015

Well im still lookin into it for my indoor, im in the researxh phase an theres lots of info on silica, tons of threads here on it.
Im currently usin protekt just like you.
Indoor im concerned the de will not break down fast enough for a silica supplement I plan on using it more as a gnat deterent, Outdoor you should have more time for it to break down ive read 60 days to really start kickin in tho?

Dkgrower · Jun 16, 2015

You dont want it to get cloudy- you are locking up positive charged elements .

Also i really question if its the silica in your product that works or the large K boost you are giving your plants

Anyway you dont want to mix it with any other fertiliser and i dont care what canna related fertiliser companys are saying, not a single one have done a compability test with there products and silica is such a reative element that i will bond to any Mg, S, Ca, K in your solution locking it up.

I have talked with 2 indenpendent agricultural specialist and they both pointed out that it need to be biological active and it should be organic stabilised ortho silicate

Pls do hit me hard if i am wrong but the more i study silica i start to question what we are getting out of protek and related potassium silicat products.

EclipseFour20 · Jun 16, 2015

For some "advanced studies" in Silica, may I suggest reading these papers.

1. Good primer on "silica fertilizers" with a bias towards Diatomaceous Earth www.privilifesciences.com/download/A-review-of-Silicon-and-its-benefits-for-plants.pdf

2. Agripower (the company that published the above primer) also conducted numerous field trials, very interesting indeed. http://www.agripower.com.au/#!trial-sheets-f/cmzi

3. For a textbook styled presentation of Silica, read this one: www.siliforce.com/pdf/7c/Snyder%20Mati%20Les%20effets%20du%20Silicium.pdf

4. Now, this particular study is detailed, a bit deep--but it does compare a number of Si sources (calcium silicate, potassium silicate, cement, etc) and contains lots of tables with numbers and "ranking" by harvest yield--very telling for sure. elibrary.sugarresearch.com.au/bitstream/handle/11079/12957/CLW009_Final_Report.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

The type of DE I use is foodgrade quality, Fossil Shell Flour, which is derived from fresh water sources and has the consistency of talcum powder. I add an insane amount of FSF to my custom grow medium at the equivalent rate of 20lbs per cubic yard....or 336 grams per cubic foot.

Guaranteed analysis of PermaGuard's FSF are attached--almost 90% amorphous silica oxide, 50 lb bag for less than $30. That equates to about $0.67 per pound for SiO2, compared to say AgSil 16h which is $6.06 per pound.

Proof:
50lb bag of AgSil16h contains 52.8% SiO2 and available around $160 (plus shipping).
50lbs X 52.8% = 26.4 lbs SiO2
$160 (price) ÷ 26.4 (lbs SiO2) = $6.06/lb

50lb bag of Fossil Shell Flour contains 89% SiO2 and available under $30 (plus shipping).
50lbs X 89% = 44.5 lbs SiO2
$30 (price) ÷ 44.5 (lbs SiO2) = $0.67/lb

Lots of stuff out there on silica for sure...if one looks. BTW, the preferred "flavor" of Potassium Silicate is one that includes "monosilicic acid" which is "plant available silica" (as is amorphous silica (DE)). Point to ponder--not all "silica" sources are immediately "plant available" and must be "siliconized" first--which can take days/weeks to complete.

Tyson53 · Jun 16, 2015

maybe the stream contains some fert run off if there are fields close by..or the water contains some other disolved minerals or organics...

EclipseFour20 · Jun 16, 2015

Tyson53 said:
maybe the stream contains some fert run off if there are fields close by..or the water contains some other disolved minerals or organics...

Or maybe there is something to adding Si sourced from Diatomaceous Earth. Here are two of my posts from a different thread--with a link to another research--that should make you say "hmmmm" as you stroke your chin.

EclipseFour20 said:
....Let's begin with a report from someone that probably has forgotten more about Si than ALL OF US WILL LEARN DURING OUR COLLECTIVE LIFETIMES....Vladimir Matichenkov

http://www.regional.org.au/au/asa/2010/farming-systems/nutrients-water/7052_matichenkovvl.htm

Please take a gander at Table 2 (Barley experiment) and please note that Diatomaceous Earth bested "chemically pure SiO2" in all experiments.

That experiment measured the biomass of Barley in grams after NPK rates of 100 & 500 kg ha-1:

Control 0.16 grams (no NPK)
NPK 0.25 & 029 grams
NPK+SiO2 0.28 & 0.30 grams
NPK+DE 0.30 & 0.34 grams

It appears that "chemically pure SiO2" added very little to the equation (0.03 & 0.01 grams over NPK....with DE providing 0.05 & 0.05 grams over NPK). All the details of how/what/when/how much are in the report.
...

EclipseFour20 said:
...Si researchers are entrenched in various camps....but they all agree on one thing, there is much to learn about Si and how it effects various plant species--especially passive Si uptake and its interaction with other elements/nutes/minerals/fertility/enzymes/bacteria/fungi; not much certainty here. And the results are not universal, the trials show excellent results for tomato crops but lousy for cucumbers. There is much to learn.

IMHO, that Barley experiment does tell an interesting tale, which I think you missed.

Control 0.16 grams (no NPK)
NPK 0.25 & 0.29 grams
NPK+SiO2 0.28 & 0.30 grams
NPK+DE 0.30 & 0.34 grams

Difference between SiO2 & DE 0.02 & 0.04 (7.1% & 13.3%).

Why did the NPK+SiO2 lag the NPK+DE? It took only 100 kg of NPK for NPK+DE to produce 0.30 grams...while NPK+SiO2 required 5 times the amount (500 kg NPK) to achieve the same results. Is it because DE is more efficient? Is it because SiO2 takes a while to "kick in" while DE was "immediate"? That extra weight (0.02 & 0.04) equates to 7.1% and 13.3% increase over SiO2--usually anything over 10% is significant and worthy of further investigation.

BTW...if one thinks that 0.04 gram increase ain't squat, then lets change the unit of measure to pounds. Using the 500kg rates, no NPK produced 16 pounds, adding NPK produced 29 pounds, with SiO2 produced 30 pounds (1 pound increase...whoppie!), and DE blessed you with 34 pounds (5 pound increase over NPK, 4 pound increase over NPK+SiO2...now we're talking!). Which one would you run....the 29 pounder, the 30 pounder or the 34 pounder routine?

...

So...Si sourced from Fossil Shell Flour (foodgrade DE) is "plant available silica" (amorphous) and bested "chemically pure" SiO2 (which is not "plant available"). Hmmmm...stroke, stroke...puff, puff.....29 pounds vs 34 pounds...hmmm.

Kygiacomo!!! · Jun 16, 2015

there is nothing at all in the jug except protekt when it goes cloudy. i didnt add no fertilizer bc when i got the water out the stream the 1st time and as soon as i put it into the jug i seen it go cloudy so i didnt add nothing else. this got me to thinking what could be causing it? so i come back home ran some water out the tap and put 2.5ml of protekt in it and its crystal clear. now i need to find out what is causing it to go milky at the streams or just cut it out all together from watering it in from the stream water. i can take a 32 oz spray bottle with me from the house and folair the plants with it and then just dump the rest into the soil so i can get the benefits of silica,but the question still remains "Why is this stream water out of the mountains causing it to go cloudy"? i think StoneyK is onto something about the minerals in the water but then again how can i check to find out to correct the issue?

Kygiacomo!!! · Jun 16, 2015

EclipseFour20 said:
Or maybe there is something to adding Si sourced from Diatomaceous Earth. Here are two of my posts from a different thread--with a link to another research--that should make you say "hmmmm" as you stroke your chin.

So...Si sourced from Fossil Shell Flour (foodgrade DE) is "plant available silica" (amorphous) and bested "chemically pure" SiO2 (which is not "plant available"). Hmmmm...stroke, stroke...puff, puff.....29 pounds vs 34 pounds...hmmm.

great info brother! im gonna order this food grade DE right now fkk this protekt. i will just use the protekt to mix up my neem oil with form here on out.

Mikell · Jun 16, 2015

Bring a jug home and measure EC? It could be a high turbidity issue if the stream is moving along quickly, in which case you may notice a degree of settling.

Kygiacomo!!! · Jun 16, 2015

Mikell said:
Bring a jug home and measure EC? It could be a high turbidity issue if the stream is moving along quickly, in which case you may notice a degree of settling.

how do i check EC? i dont those fancy meters that i see ppl talking about all time lol honestly in all my years of growing i have never once checked Ph of water or soil and EC.

Mikell · Jun 16, 2015

Well then you're shit outa luck

Unless you can borrow one I suppose. The dreaded grow store may have one handy.

Kygiacomo!!! · Jun 16, 2015

Mikell said:
Well then you're shit outa luck Unless you can borrow one I suppose. The dreaded grow store may have one handy.

haha yep im fuked brother! no grow stores within a 2hr drive of my house. i suppose i can just foliar the protekt and be done with it since i can carry 32 oz spray bottle with me to the plots. there has to be something in that water that is making it do it. i just went over to my moms and dads house to get some water from their tap which is well water and its also clear when i add protekt. my tap is city water and its also clear. would the water Ph make it go cloudy?

Mikell · Jun 17, 2015

Yes, I believe above 8-9pH (correctly explained on next page). But again requires testing. Damn you, science.

Kygiacomo!!! · Jun 17, 2015

Mikell said:
Yes, I believe above 8-9pH (possible from stream water). But again requires testing. Damn you, science.

haha right bro! i just ordered some basalt rock dust,DE and bioag new product humix and silica powder. i had just checked that site early on today and the humix & silica product wasnt there then a few hours later i went to look at the price for basalt rock dust and BAM it was there. it was a calling for me since i was seeking silica LOL. im just gonna folair the protekt and not worry about putting it in my water for that cloudy bullshit. id say the stream has high PH like u said

Avenger · Jun 18, 2015

the preferred "flavor" of Potassium Silicate is one that includes "monosilicic acid" which is "plant available silica" (as is amorphous silica (DE)). Point to ponder--not all "silica" sources are immediately "plant available" and must be "siliconized" first--which can take days/weeks to complete.

When you talk about things you do not understand very well, you sound dumb. I do it sometimes too. So don't be too ashamed.

would the water Ph make it go cloudy?

yes,

"The water solubility depends on the pH. Above a pH of 11 - 12 stable solutions of monomeric and polymeric silicate ions exist. The soluble content rapidly decreases when the pH is lowered to 9. Below pH 9 only a small proportion is present as soluble monomeric silicate ions, the majority existing as insoluble amorphous silica gel."

"at environmental pH values of 6.5 – 8.5 only a small proportion of silicate ions will
be in solution."

a previous discussion on this subject:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=258971

EclipseFour20 · Jun 18, 2015

Avenger said:
When you talk about things you do not understand very well, you sound dumb. I do it sometimes too. So don't be too ashamed....

Ahh Aveng, and sometimes when someone tries to be "cute"...they kinda step all over themselves...lol.

"Let me explain Lucy"--by cutting and pasting what smarter people have concluded: Why I said monosilicic acid is the preferred "flavor" of Potassium Silicate, let's refer to this little ditty from: www.privilifesciences.com/download/A-review-of-Silicon-and-its-benefits-for-plants.pdf

Silicon (Si) is one of the most abundant elements in the earth’s crust. Soils generally contain from
5 to 40% Si (Kovda, 1973) consisting of mainly poorly soluble quartz and crystalline silicates,
which are inert. Whilst silicon is plentiful, most sources of silicon are insoluble and not in a plant available
form.
Plants can only absorb Si in the form of soluble monosilicic acid, a non-charged molecule.
Monosilicic acid, or plant available silicon (PAS), is a product of Si-rich mineral dissolution
(Lindsay, 1979). Different Si sources have different dissolution rates; the solubility of quartz is
low compared to the easily soluble amorphous silica, diatomaceous earth (Savant et al, 1999).
PAS is absorbed by plants, benefiting the plant in terms of growth and resistance to disease and
environmental stresses. PAS also has a significant effect on soil texture, water holding capacity,
adsorption capacity, and soil erosion stability.

Go here and read the Savant 1999 paper--www.researchgate.net/profile/Lawrence_Datnoff/publication/251449083_Silicon_Management_and_Sustainable_Rice_Production/links/53d01e7d0cf2fd75bc5d175f.pdf?disableCoverPage=true

And why "not all "silica" sources are immediately "plant available" and must be "siliconized" first"--we have this from the same pdf:

In the soil solution, or liquid phase, Si is present as monosilicic acid (Si(OH)4, referred to as PAS)
and polysilicic acid (the polymer of PAS) as well as complexes with organic and inorganic
compounds such as Al oxides and hydroxides (Berthlesen et al, 2003). While it is the PAS that is
taken up by the plants and has a direct influence on crop growth, the polysilicic acid and
inorganic and organic complexes are important sources/sinks that replenish the PAS following
crop use. They also have an important and significant effect on the soil properties such as
improving soil aggregation and increasing soil water holding capacity as well as increasing the
exchange and buffering capacity of the soils (see CEC section) (Berthelsen et al, 2003).
The solubility of Si in the soil is affected by a number of dynamic processes occurring in the soil
(see Figure 3 below) including the particle size of the Si fertiliser, the soil pH7, organic complexes,
presence of Al, Fe and phosphate ions, temperature, exchangeable/dissolution reactions and soil
moisture8 (Berthelsen et al, 2003).

(Savant's Figure 6 is same as the above referenced Figure 3)

BTW, Fossil Shell Flour is nearly 90% SiO2 and is classified as: Plant Available Silica, Biogenic Silica and Amorphous Silica, and happens to be "natural" (derived from diatoms). Potassium Silicate is derived from "glass lumps", is not in PAS, rather it is polysilicic acid--a polymer of PAS, and must be "siliconized" before it becomes PAS.

So, now who is "ashamed" of having a momentary lapse of "dumbness"? LOL. Please read some of the literature I linked to in my earlier post--all good stuff and zero stoner logic!

Avenger · Jun 18, 2015

What is your definition for "siliconized"?

Protekt cloudy?

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