The search for a proper recovery pump..

HG23 said:

I have called and talked with Richard at Master Vapor.

Their pump is indeed a diaphragm type driven by a NEMA 7 electric motor. It uses CO2 for backing pressure.

They are working on a 150PSI model for higher propane mixes that is still in development for several months.

One thing that I found especially interesting is the fact that the internals of the pump are all FDA approved. Richard thought the wear and dust created by friction in a reciprocating type pump would not pass muster once someone analyses the cleanliness of our process.

Before I saw Master Vapor, I was thinking about buying a Blackmer, however, even though I'm familiar with their design I worry about lubrication oil leaking through into the gas stream. What do you think RB? I know you guys own a couple Blackmers at this point.

Graywolf, one thing I have been wondering about is the max output of these pumps in relation to the level of vapor pressure assist I use. Sometimes my vapor pressure tank will have 100+ PSI when I'm trying to push cold solvent around. It's during those times I'm most concerned about exceeding the output pressure limits of pumps like this.

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Hello friends I'm Tracy with Master Vapor Pumps. I'm here to answer any question you have about our new MVP-6CFM electric diaphragm hydrocarbon solvent extraction processing pump.

I'll start with the questions I have seen:
The MVP-6CFM's maximum continuous output pressure is 60 psi and can increase to 70 psi in intervals. The MVP6 is different from any other electric diaphragm pump in the fact that it cannot "stall out". Instead of allowing the pump to overload, the MVP6 disengages the diaphragm at the gearbox level. Once the pressure reduces the gearbox engages and the pump continues operation. This happens without stalling out or causing any damage to the pump or its motor.

It's true that we are working on a 150 PSI model, but that's only to continue to move towards the perfect pump. The current 60 psi model works flawlessly even with pure propane. Propane went first when we started testing in the field. Of course adequate heat exchange is required to keep the pressure down.however any pump needs a heat exchange to operate efficiently. The pump is a workhorse, and the specs are moderate for what it can actually handle.

The MVP-6CFM is MAWP 350. It uses a CO2 cushion as backpressure for the diaphragm. Even during a rupture there is no chance of air contaminating the system or gas leaking out. This was the largest limiting factor for diaphragm pumps to actually achieve 3rd party certification. We solved that problem.

The real sleeper game changer here is the -27HG that the MVP-6CFM pulls. Our customers have been replacing nitrogen and warm gas pushes with the vacuum power of the pump. Compared to other pumps which struggle to pull a vacuum, this is a serious improvement.

http://www.refrigerant-recovery.com/product/caresaver-universal-refrigerant-recovery-unit/

Anyone have experience with one of these? My friend has one and runs propane; he swears by it.

I've been running heavy propane through cmep-ol's and the output side is always 100 psi. The guy at xtractor depot, currently fixing one of them, says that's too high. Any advice? Are the cmep-ol going the way of the dinosaur? I hate to think so cause I've got 4. Help!

MasterVaporPump said:

The MVP-6CFM is MAWP 350. It uses a CO2 cushion as backpressure for the diaphragm. Even during a rupture there is no chance of air contaminating the system or gas leaking out. This was the largest limiting factor for diaphragm pumps to actually achieve 3rd party certification. We solved that problem.

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Do you guys have a real website other than your facebook/IG presence?

Any drawings/pictures of what the pump internals actually look like? Full spec sheet?

Does customer need to supply tank and regulator for the gas cushion on the backside of the diaphragms?

What's a rebuild kit cost and what parts does it include?

The real sleeper game changer here is the -27HG that the MVP-6CFM pulls. Our customers have been replacing nitrogen and warm gas pushes with the vacuum power of the pump. Compared to other pumps which struggle to pull a vacuum, this is a serious improvement.

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I'm very skeptical of this claim. While I don't doubt that your pump can pull vacuum (and if it can do it long-term without falling apart like the CMEP pumps do, I commend your engineering team). Assuming that your storage tank is holding cold liquid and is at 0 PSI pressure the max amount of push that you can get from putting vacuum on the end of that liquid line is going to be 1 ATM (14.69 PSI).

Now, if you let enough of that liquid thru the pump you may get more but that's using a hot gas push due to heat of compression thru your pump.

I'm not trying to shit on your pump design - I'd love an opportunity to test one out though I'm not sitting on enough cash to buy one outright. But keep in mind that everybody here heard many of the exact same claims about the CMEP and those of us stupid enough to fall for the lies found out very quickly that it was sales malarkey, not anything with roots in reality.

I'm sick of adapting down to my recovery tanks. Can one use the normally plugged ports that are on a tank, in the process? Can I remove the center Y valve, replace it with a dedicated vapor valve, as well as replace the plugged 3/4" opening with an additional vapor valve/port, and use the 1/4" plugged opening as the liquid port with dip tube? Would it be recommended to use a special seal tape/dope like one see's on tanks?

Thanks.

I'm looking for something sub $1000, only really need it to last a year or so until I can get the client base to move up to the Haskells. I see a lot of people talking about the Robinair RG6 or the CPS TRS600 and others... is there a general consensus on the best value for a recovery pump in this price range?

Run passively. I run a small column that holds 1000g currently, and can recover 6kg in an hour to an hour and a half. And that is slow by my standards (due to shitty plumbing and thin vessels).

Yeah thats what Im doing, considering that your recovery speed is not far off what I get with a pump and all the baggage involved with it.

How much condensing surface area can one achieve for the same cost as one or two TR21's?

Deep freeze glycol baths and multiple 100lbs tanks in my immediate future.

You could do a mock Bizzybee recovery, and use a sleeved dewax column to recover into, but leave the bottom valve open and constantly draining into the recovery tank. Thinner columns will maximize your surface area for cooling, unless you can also imploy an internal cooling coil or similar.

I am currently just submerging one recovery tank in dry ice.

Half way through recovery, if you flush the recovered solvent back into the feed/storage tank, you take a lot of load off of the dry ice, and speed the recoovery way up again. Also a good way to pull muffins to full vacuum at the very end of recovery...

Old Gold said:

Run passively. I run a small column that holds 1000g currently, and can recover 6kg in an hour to an hour and a half. And that is slow by my standards (due to shitty plumbing and thin vessels).

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I was under the impression that the recovery times for using a pump was 15-20 mins vs an hour or 2 doing it passively but if I'm mistaken please let me know.... this is for income not just for my own use.

So just to clarify, your 1000g column takes 6kg to flood and your spending 60-90 mins right? Or did you mean your recovering your 1000g column 6 times to make 6kg of product?

Old Gold said:

You could do a mock Bizzybee recovery, and use a sleeved dewax column to recover into, but leave the bottom valve open and constantly draining into the recovery tank. Thinner columns will maximize your surface area for cooling, unless you can also imploy an internal cooling coil or similar.

I am currently just submerging one recovery tank in dry ice.

Half way through recovery, if you flush the recovered solvent back into the feed/storage tank, you take a lot of load off of the dry ice, and speed the recoovery way up again. Also a good way to pull muffins to full vacuum at the very end of recovery...

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I dont have a rack/stand yet, so mock bizzy style is not easily achievable.
I also like to keep it simple and cheap, so for chilling dont want to have to deal with consumables or commercial chillers etc. For my situation its less work and hassle to just have a few deep freezers churning.

Good tip on clearing out your recovered tanks part way through!

Old Gold said:

You could do a mock Bizzybee recovery, and use a sleeved dewax column to recover into, but leave the bottom valve open and constantly draining into the recovery tank. Thinner columns will maximize your surface area for cooling, unless you can also imploy an internal cooling coil or similar.

I am currently just submerging one recovery tank in dry ice.

Half way through recovery, if you flush the recovered solvent back into the feed/storage tank, you take a lot of load off of the dry ice, and speed the recoovery way up again. Also a good way to pull muffins to full vacuum at the very end of recovery...

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A "mock bizzybee recovery? OG can you please explain this further? Maybe I've heard of this process just with a different name?...

Best Value Vacs has the Master Vapor pumps discussed above in stock.


MVP-6CFM EXPLOSION PROOF RECOVERY PUMP

Mastor Vapor Pumps MVP-6CFM Vapor Recovery Pump is designed for hydrocarbon extraction processing. The Dual-Diaphragm pump is electrically powered by an explosion-proof motor. It is built with stainless steel wetted parts and has a max allowable working pressure of 350 PSI. Eeach unit is certified and made in the USA.

Performance Factoids:

Recover LP-Gas vapor at over 6CFM (cubic feet per minute)
Recover butane at up to 1 LB/Min (pounds per minute)
Recover and recondense butane at over 12 GPH (gallons per hour)
Maximum pumping outlet pressure: 60 PSI (4.1 bar) continuous, 70 PSI (4.8 bar) intermittent
Maximum pumping inlet vacuum produced: 27 InHg (0.91 bar)
Maximum pumping speed: 190 CPM (cycles per minute)
Pump static withstand pressure rating: MAWP 350 PSI (24 bar)
Materials: pressure section: stainless steel; diaphragms: FKM; reed valves: stainless steel
Optional PTFE diaphragms kit available
Process gas temperature range: FKM -40-275F (-40-135C); PTFE +40-220F (4-104C)
Recommended FKM replacement schedule: every 1000 hours running time
Air temperature range for motor/gearbox operation: 32-104F(0-40C)

Pump Head Charge:

Motor is coupled to diaphragms with patented gas pressure charged chamber
Pumping outlet pressure runs about 10 PSI lower than the charge gas pressure level
Non-reactive CO2 gas is used to charge the pump head
CO2 gas is safer than air for driving the pump
CO2 gas is non-flammable and non-explosive with LPG (should a diaphragm ever leak)
CO2 gas regulator with gauges is provided with pump assembly
CO2 tank is operator provided (cannot ship filled tanks) - from any welding supply store
Pump charge gas supply: standard (#20) 5 LB tank of industrail CO2
Typical CO2 gas usage: <0.2 SCFH (very little); estimated life of charge gas tank: 1 year
Pump charge gas pressure range: continuous 5 to 70 PSI (1.4 to 5.5 bar); to 80 PSI intermittent

Electrical and Mechanical:

Electric motor: explosion proof for C1D1 hazardous areas; rated Class I Gr C & D, Class II Gr F&G
Electric motor: 1 HP, 1800 RPM, 60 Hz
Motor option: Model MVP-6CFM-1PH: Single-phase: 115/208-230V, 13.4/6.7 FLA (full load amps)
Motor option: Model MVP-6CFM-3PH: Three-phase: 208-230/460V, 3.3/1.65 FLA, Inverter-rated
Pump Speed: 190 CPM (cycles per minute) at 60 Hz
Noise: sound pressure measured 1 meter from pump: 80.5 dBa
Porting: process inlet and outlet: 1/2" JIC-male
Added ports for optional pressure gauges: inlet and outlet: 1/4" FNPT
Inlet & outlet ports at ideal equipment connections heights 46" and 41" above floor
Size: 17.0" x 19.9" x 46" tall; minimum use of valuable floor space
Weight: 182.5 lb (82.8 kg)

Operating Manual: https://mastervaporpumps.com/wp-con...r-Pumps-MVP-6CFM-Operation-Manual-3A5262A.pdf

Motors & Wiring: https://mastervaporpumps.com/wp-con...Vapor-Pumps-MVP-6CFM-Motors-Wiring-rev1-1.pdf


https://www.bestvaluevacs.com/mvp-6cfm.html

When those stats say that it can recover and recondense butane at 12 gallons per hour, do we know the conditions at which they achieved that? What are the ideal input and output psi's? I assume the output tank pressure is 0psi for ideal conditions, although that's nearly impossible.

What can it do in my system, where I'm currently running a single TR21 with 15-20psi input and 20-50psi in the recovery tank, cooled only with regular ice (20-30L of butane)? Right now it takes about an hour to recover 15L, but I'm only chilling my recovery pump input line with a 25' SS coil sitting in regular ice (and replacing the ice regularly). Currently nothing in the whole system ever gets above 75°F (the recovery tank, towards the end of a cycle). But I think that if I upgrade my recovery pump to a pro model like the one above or if I just add a second TR(S)21 (more likely), I'll need to upgrade my cooling system or I'll be dumping in new ice non-stop. I really need a coil and recovery tank cooling solution that is bigger/badder than ice to take much advantage of a bigger pump, eh? Like a chilled glycol setup. I'm just at that point of deciding where to spend the money first, with 3 options:

1)prechilling butane before injection to pull less waxes

2)further chilling recovery coil and tank for faster recovery times

Or

3) adding more/better recovery pumps for faster recovery times/safety/redundancy.

As IGT notes, pump performance data is meaningless without accompanying operating conditions. I've run both a GAST diaphragm pump as well as a proprietary pump being developed for the cannabis market and found that they work well within their parameters, and have their charms, but they are a fixed displacement design, which moves one volume of its displacement each stroke, assuming 100% volumetric efficiency, and atmospheric pressure (Zero gauge) on the inlet and outlet.

Atmospheric pressure is actually 14.7 psi, but if it is the same on both inlet and outlet, the gas it just passing through without compression or expansion.

If the inlet is at 14.7 psi, gas laws tell us that their will be twice as much gas in the pump chamber, so each stroke will put out twice as much.

It also tells us that if the inlet to the pump is under 14.96" Hg of vacuum, the air will only be half as dense as at atmospheric 29.92" Hg, so each pump stroke will put out half as much (at 100% efficiency).

Taking it to the next step, if the outlet is under 14.7 psi gauge, each stroke of the pump will be compressed into half the space, adding heat of compression, which added to BTU’s picked up from the pump mechanical losses adds to the outlet pressure, unless those BTU’s are removed.

Fixed displacement diaphragm compressors have less sliding friction that piston type, but still get hot from flexing the diaphragm and share the issue of heat of compression.

They also don’t like starting under pressure, so provisions should be made to accommodate that quirk.

Small fixed displacement compressors typically get 2 to 2.5 cfm per horsepower. The VaporHawg was about a 6 cfm piston pump, which was down to about 5 scfm at 60 psi, and the proprietary diaphragm pump that we tested was about the same size, and delivered at about the same rate under the same conditions.

The VaporHawg was designed to operate at 60 psi and required just under 2 horsepower to do so, but horsepower requirements are not linear and go up as a log function versus pressure, so it behooves us to operate at as low a pressure as possible on the discharge side and pressure higher than atmospheric on the inlet side.

A key issue was that both pumps were capable of handling more flow than could be evaporated from a 12” diameter pot surface area without pouring in heat, because the evaporation cools the pool, which drops below boiling point and just evaporates off at a low simmer.

To get full performance from either, requires more surface area to work with, or enough heat to keep their inlets under positive pressure.

A key to performance is post pump heat dissipation and the higher the flows, the cooler they are, because the same pump entropy gains are spread out over a greater volume and their residence time in the pump is less. The pumps also run hotter when under vacuum for that reason.

Calculating heat of compression and entropy losses is harder and less accurate than just measuring the outlet fitting of the compressor to get an actual number, which is what I recommend doing.

n-Butane and Propane have a specific heat close enough together to ignore the difference at - cp - (Btu/lboF or cal/goC, J/kgK) 0.39 Btu/lb/F, or 1675 cal/g/C, J/kgK, and 0.39, 1630 respectively.

n-Butane has a boiling point of about -0.4C/31.2F and n-Propane about -42.2C/-44F. Looking at the vapor pressures in the Engineering Toolbox chart at: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-butane-mix-d_1043.html , a 70/30 mix of n-Butane and n-Propane boils between -23.3C/-10F and -17.78C/0F.

Therefore one pound of that mixture at 125F, would need to lose about 130 degrees to liquefy, so 1 lb X .39 Btu X 130 degrees F delta T= 50.7 BTU per pound at that temperature.

Great useful info as always GW.
As it looks like a 12" recovery pot with 3" jacketed shatter platter is what I'm working with for the foreseeable future, it still seems like multiple trs21's is the way to go. I'm thinking 3 or 4 should max out the 12" collection spool. I also really like the idea of redundancy and individual bypasses so I never have to stop work due to a pump failure. Nice to know that if something goes out, I'd still be running at66% capacity and only need $150-400 for a rebuild or 800 for a new unit to be back at full capacity. I've also rebuilt my tr21 several times including replacing the piston (x3 rebuild kit) so I know what easy work that is.

I would imagine that anything over 12" for a collection pot is going to be custom made. Any recommendations on who's doing that? I thought I read about someone with 22"ers?

Itsgotatail said:

Great useful info as always GW.
As it looks like a 12" recovery pot with 3" jacketed shatter platter is what I'm working with for the foreseeable future, it still seems like multiple trs21's is the way to go. I'm thinking 3 or 4 should max out the 12" collection spool. I also really like the idea of redundancy and individual bypasses so I never have to stop work due to a pump failure. Nice to know that if something goes out, I'd still be running at66% capacity and only need $150-400 for a rebuild or 800 for a new unit to be back at full capacity. I've also rebuilt my tr21 several times including replacing the piston (x3 rebuild kit) so I know what easy work that is.

I would imagine that anything over 12" for a collection pot is going to be custom made. Any recommendations on who's doing that? I thought I read about someone with 22"ers?

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Not sure whose offering 22" pots, but we had our pots custom made by Marks Brothers in Boring, OR. http://marks-brothers.com/

Gray Wolf said:

Not sure whose offering 22" pots, but we had our pots custom made by Marks Brothers in Boring, OR. https://marks-brothers.com/

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Purge Labs makes a 600L jacketed collection pot with a bottom drain for collection.

600L? Whoa. That's a bit overkill. Certainly understand the spout. You definitely aren't pouring that thing! 80-100L would be great for me. I'd like to move up to a 6x48" material column (or maybe an 8"x24" to keep the total height down...should work OK since I'm doing bi-flow). I have a second 12x12" spool. I suppose if I stacked both of them them plus the shatter platter, I could almost do that, but not quite.

Some large units at bhogart, 4'x6' base, up to a ton of liquid in one of em!

Itsgotatail said:

600L? Whoa. That's a bit overkill. Certainly understand the spout. You definitely aren't pouring that thing! 80-100L would be great for me. I'd like to move up to a 6x48" material column (or maybe an 8"x24" to keep the total height down...should work OK since I'm doing bi-flow). I have a second 12x12" spool. I suppose if I stacked both of them them plus the shatter platter, I could almost do that, but not quite.

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They also have a 100L collection base on their atlas system which comes with a 30lb extraction column that can be rotated vertically by turning a crank. purgelabs.com I haven't seen one in person, but they look like a lot of fun to run.