Do Amino Acids have a roll in organics?

somebody041 · Aug 2, 2009

Hey everyone,

Has anyone experimented with amino acids in conjunction with teas and stuff?

I got a free sample of Amino Aide made by aurora (roots organic people). It's NPK is 5-0-0 and it says it was derived from kelp extract, yucca extract, L-glycerine and L-Arginine. I couldn't find much info regarding amino acids.

i already supply kelp via maxicrop powder in my compost teas.

any insight would be appreciated
:joint:

maryjohn · Aug 2, 2009

It's bullshit, like the 90% of grow products marketed to stoners. plants make all the aminos they need. That's why they need nitrogen.

have you ever seen a plant with all nutrients it needs develop an amino acid deficiency? just starve it for nitrogen and you have instant amino acid deficiency.

Johnny Rotten · Aug 2, 2009

MaryJohn,

Plants also make all the hormones they need but we know it's beneficial to add them, right? You don't see plants with hormone deficiencies, right?

It still helps to add them so it is illogical to think like that.

Don't be so quick to knock different methods. If you'd like to explore why you think it's bullshit with evidence to back it up than that's what we're all about. Just dropping in to say it's bullshit with a logical fallacy to back it up is trolling...shitty trolling.

This is the organic forum and we think beyond N+P+K=plant.

Somebody041,

There is a ton of info out there about amino acids and there interactions with plants. I'd say got for it but start off small and see what it does for you. I seriously doubt you'll see any ill effects and if it was free than you don't have much to lose. It may be the the best thing since sliced bread but if you took MaryJohns advice, you'd never know. Good luck

geopolitical · Aug 2, 2009

While plants themselves probably don't utilize amino acids, it's likely symbiotic fungi and bacterium would find them useful

maryjohn · Aug 2, 2009

geopolitical said:
While plants themselves probably don't utilize amino acids, it's likely symbiotic fungi and bacterium would find them useful

Actually in another thread Johnny pointed to some reasearch suggesting plants may actively take up aminos, which means he may have a point.

But - a handful of blood meal is jam-packed with aminos. Any soil with a microherd is full of aminos, because all those contain protein, which is made of aminos. It's already there.

I'm not saying not to give your plant aminos. I am saying you already are giving your plant aminos, and that these expensive products are not necessary and have not been demonstrated to do anything at all that isn't already happening. It pisses me off to see an industry take advantage.

Johnny,

As for hormones, who is adding what hormone to an organic grow? I can't think of any besides the synthetic auxin some people add, but that is most definitely not organic. In organic gardening you don't mess around with the chemical messengers within the plant.

you're right Johnny, I should have made my point better, but here's what I think is going on: MJ growers have an almost irrational desire to increase yield by small amounts using very expensive technology, because the product they are trying to grow is a controlled substance and therefore artificially expensive. It seems to me when growing MJ it is easy to throw skepticism out the window, because if these products did half what they say it would be worth it. I like to ask "would I use this product to grow brussels sprouts (my favorite veggie)?"

I apologize for making my point with emotion instead of reason. doesn't help my case or this community.

Trust the microherd. They will take care of everything. It's so easy and cheap! There are many methods to get it done, some better than others, but here are no shortcuts. Find the method that works for you, and have fun experimenting, but please don't be a sucker. If buyers don't buy bullshit then sellers won't sell it.

Johnny Rotten · Aug 2, 2009

Kelp is full of hormones and is added by a ton of people for that reason. Alfalfa as well.

maryjohn · Aug 2, 2009

Johnny Rotten said:
Kelp is full of hormones and is added by a ton of people for that reason. Alfalfa as well.

ah, that's what you meant. well, that's really defining things pretty loosely, isn't it? Kelp is a whole product, a plant. So is alfalfa. They contain hormones shown to have beneficial effects, much like other plants contain hormones designed to do the opposite and slow down the competition. If I bottled some kelp extract, made it very expensive, and sold it as hormone, would I be a bullshitter? would it be worth it to extract just the hormones when the plant or seed can use it just fine in natural state?

When you add kelp and alfalfa, you are adding kelp and alfalfa, not "growing with hormones". It's not superthrive.

Calling kelp and alfalfa hormones is like calling blood meal aminos. It's in there. You're already getting it, and nothing further is required.

Johnny Rotten · Aug 2, 2009

This is the organics forum. 99% of everything we talk about is not in its pure form.

I'm not here to argue semantics, I'm here to learn and help people learn. I don't know what you're here for...

maryjohn · Aug 2, 2009

Johnny Rotten said:
I'm not here to argue semantics, I'm here to learn and help people learn. I don't know what you're here for...

I'm here because I find it interesting. I'm on this thread because I am a skeptic. That's my prerogative.

I'm certainly not here to question your motivations, or anyone else's (except companies selling bullshit products to MJ growers). Please show me the same courtesy. We can talk about this without getting personal. it's a good topic and you say good things. I don't believe I have shown you disrespect, though I may have set two opposing ideas against each other in an adversarial process to see which comes out on top.

If you don't want to argue semantics, don't stretch the semantics, or at least be straight about it from the start. If you say you grow with hormones I think of superthrive, not kelp. Kelp is not a hormone, it's a whole plant. Kelp extract is also not a hormone, it's an extract of a whole plant derived through simple and natural processes. Extraction and synthesis are not equivalent, so I'm not sure what you mean by things "not being in their natural form". Organics is not defined by the use of or abstention from using unprocessed ingredients.

would you care to comment on the amino acid content of blood meal? Or the ubiquity of amino acids in living organic soil? those are the big points I made, and I believe you are quibbling over the ancillary points.

Clackamas Coot · Aug 2, 2009

somebody041 said:
I got a free sample of Amino Aide made by aurora (roots organic people). It's NPK is 5-0-0 and it says it was derived from kelp extract, yucca extract, L-glycerine and L-Arginine. I couldn't find much info regarding amino acids.

i already supply kelp via maxicrop powder in my compost teas.

any insight would be appreciated

somebody

The ability of Aurora (Roots Organic) to come up with complete and total bullsh*t is only rivaled by the clowns down at Fox Farms when it comes to marketing their 'products'

Kelp meal/extract definitely has a place in agriculture and horticulture as well as a supplement for livestock, pets and humans.

Yucca extract is used as a surfactant, foaming agent in carbonated drinks, a foaming agent for shampoos, soaps, etc. and many other uses in food manufacturing. It's also used as a wetting agent in some professional nursery blank soil products like Sunshine Mix, ProMix, et al. It's can be mixed with neem seed oil for the prevention of powdery mildew and mites as well as other invaders.

I'm very familiar with Arginine as a supplement for animals and humans. Look it up yourself and see if you can find a single scintilla of information about using this specific amino acid in a horticulture and/or agriculture environment. Same with the other amino acid that Roots Organic is touting in their special elixir.

If you're using Maxicrop in the powder form then you have the 'kelp extract' covered. Buy yourself some yucca extract and go forth and save a ton of money and not support the ass-clowns at Roots Organic over in Eugene.

Yucca extract is beneficial and there's a ton of information about why you would want to use it on your plants.

HTH

CC

somebody041 · Aug 2, 2009

Clackamas Coot said:
somebody

The ability of Aurora (Roots Organic) to come up with complete and total bullsh*t is only rivaled by the clowns down at Fox Farms when it comes to marketing their 'products'

Kelp meal/extract definitely has a place in agriculture and horticulture as well as a supplement for livestock, pets and humans.

Yucca extract is used as a surfactant, foaming agent in carbonated drinks, a foaming agent for shampoos, soaps, etc. and many other uses in food manufacturing. It's also used as a wetting agent in some professional nursery blank soil products like Sunshine Mix, ProMix, et al. It's can be mixed with neem seed oil for the prevention of powdery mildew and mites as well as other invaders.

I'm very familiar with Arginine as a supplement for animals and humans. Look it up yourself and see if you can find a single scintilla of information about using this specific amino acid in a horticulture and/or agriculture environment. Same with the other amino acid that Roots Organic is touting in their special elixir.

If you're using Maxicrop in the powder form then you have the 'kelp extract' covered. Buy yourself some yucca extract and go forth and save a ton of money and not support the ass-clowns at Roots Organic over in Eugene.

Yucca extract is beneficial and there's a ton of information about why you would want to use it on your plants.

HTH

CC

Thanks CC, your input is always valued and appreciated. I've been curious about yucca's purpose for a long time :laughing:

Maryjohn - yes, i understand what you are saying about the microherd supplying everything. my style of growing encompassing trusting the herd as well. it's amazing how well they take care of the plant

Johnny - i appreciate you encouraging me to try it out. that's the best way for us to learn anything... do a side by side.

Since i got this small 4oz bottle for free then I'm gonna try using it on one plant and see how it goes.

CT Guy · Aug 3, 2009

I totally concur. You have to be careful with salespeople. (I say this with a bit of a grin on my face, seeing as how I do work in the industry). I was at a tradeshow party last year and I was talking to this guy and he started telling me about his products. He went on and on like it was this mysterious new finding. He told me they were mining soils from prehistoric times, "like back when the dinosaurs roamed the Earth." He then went on to tell me this "prehistoric soil" which they carefully package and preserve will allow the plant to get all its mineral needs from the ground and actually carry them into the plant. I just looked at him and go "You mean humic acids?" And he just gives me this blank look and goes "Yeah." I couldn't believe the load of crap he'd invented to showcase his "special" product!

I also hear stuff like "you plant NEEDS this, you gotta try it out." or "you'll double your yields" or some other BS claim. Find products that are backed by real science, and you'll find that 90% of the organics industry is either total bullshit, or just people repackaging the same stuff with cool marketing labels and then charging an arm and a leg for it.

It's unfortunate really, I think the bogus claims, poor products, and huge markups are really ruining our industry.....

So Somebody....even if your plant does well, make sure that it's actually the product in question that's making the difference and if that is the case, make sure that it's still worth the expense for the gain in yield or quality.

Spend your money on your soil if you're going to buy anything...(this coming from a guy who doesn't even sell soil).

maryjohn · Aug 3, 2009

Well said Ct guy

Clackamas Coot · Aug 3, 2009

CT Guy said:
I also hear stuff like "you plant NEEDS this, you gotta try it out." or "you'll double your yields" or some other BS claim. Find products that are backed by real science, and you'll find that 90% of the organics industry is either total bullshit, or just people repackaging the same stuff with cool marketing labels and then charging an arm and a leg for it.

Absolutely right.

Take the Endo Micronized micorrhizal fungai from Mycorrhizal Applications which is priced at around $230.00 for 20 lbs. or $11.50 per lb. in bulk. The single price is $14.60 per lb. from one of their distributors in Portland.

Wholesale customers include Fox Farm Fertilizer, Fungi Perfecti, Down-To-Earth, Roots Organic, Dr. Earth, E.B. Stone, Monrovia Nursery, et al.

Fungi Perfecti, for example, sells this very same product, under the copyrighted name, for $5.00 per ounce or $80.00 per lb.

Down-To-Earth isn't much better though on first glance it appears that their version of 'beneficial microbes' is priced okay until you read the label and see that it's been cut with Leonardite down below 50%.

Same deal with kelp extracts, bat & bird guanos, etc. - by the time it's bottled and on the shelf at the local indoor garden center the prices have increased 500% and higher.

Kelp meal is another example. By the time you buy the little 4 or 5 lb. box, you're paying 200-300% higher at the grow store vs. a real nursery center.

Good business to be in I suppose.

CC

CT Guy · Aug 3, 2009

Clackamas Coot said:
Good business to be in I suppose.

CC

Ha! Except it's hard to convince people that they can get the same or better results without spending all the money. One of the biggest lessons I've learned in the past few years is that people need to feel like the product they're purchasing has value and for 90% of them that is associated with price.

You see 2 different wines at the grocery store. Both use the same grape but one costs 4X as much. You're going to assume (maybe subconsciously) the the expensive one is 4X BETTER than the cheaper one, or at least have a lot of skepticism as to the quality of the cheaper product.

:wallbash:

it's a daily struggle....sigh....

Clackamas Coot · Aug 3, 2009

It's referred to as 'bragging rights' - kinda like buying a Corvette to drive around town in to pick-up groceries and run errands.

Or something like that......

CC

maryjohn · Aug 3, 2009

In your case Ct it makes perfect sense to charge more if your customer gets your assistance after the purchase.

Better yet, keep prices down and market yourself as a consultant. IN organics the most valuable thing is knowledge.

Microbeman · Aug 3, 2009

CT Guy said:
Ha! Except it's hard to convince people that they can get the same or better results without spending all the money. One of the biggest lessons I've learned in the past few years is that people need to feel like the product they're purchasing has value and for 90% of them that is associated with price.

You see 2 different wines at the grocery store. Both use the same grape but one costs 4X as much. You're going to assume (maybe subconsciously) the the expensive one is 4X BETTER than the cheaper one, or at least have a lot of skepticism as to the quality of the cheaper product.

it's a daily struggle....sigh....

I know, it's ridiculous. I got into the brewer business because I wanted to provide an efficient affordable brewer; because I was disgusted by the prices charged for brewers that might not even work. People still choose the brewer priced 10 times more than mine most of the time. They want something pretty which is reviewed by Martha Stewart. I hope Kharma wins out in the end.

CT Guy · Aug 3, 2009

Your brewer isn't pretty. :laughing:

Clackamas Coot · Aug 3, 2009

CT Guy & Microbeman

Speaking of 'nice looking' -

I was 'this close' to buying one of these units until I spoke to some folks and then read the review on this model over at Soil Food Web.

They definitely look nice!

LOL

CC

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