Downward Leaf Curl [Pic Heavy]

raphenilweed · Sep 15, 2010

Your plants are sad because of a few reasons.

Too much water. Let the soil dry.
Lights are too close to the plants. The intensity is too much for them
Nute burn. When they are small little seedlings they do not need an incredible amount of fertilizers. A lightly rich soil like .5-0-0 and a light dosing of B1 once or twice a week..
Coffee grounds are too acidic unless mixed thoroughly with other compost.

Confidential · Sep 16, 2010

BlueberryLovr said:
If it really isn't from overwatering and they do better sitting outdoors, consider improving airflow (plenty fresh air) for your indoor setup.

Hi BlueberryLovr,

This is in the works.

raphenilweed said:
Your plants are sad because of a few reasons.

Too much water. Let the soil dry.
Lights are too close to the plants. The intensity is too much for them
Nute burn. When they are small little seedlings they do not need an incredible amount of fertilizers. A lightly rich soil like .5-0-0 and a light dosing of B1 once or twice a week..
Coffee grounds are too acidic unless mixed thoroughly with other compost.

hi raphenilweed,

Water:I plan on drilling a few more holes in the containers, but I don't know if they can get any dryer before they get water. Soil edge is pulling away from the container. Dry as a bone 4" inches below the surface.

Lights: How far should they be from the lamps? Dropping them would definitely help with circulation. The way the intake is oriented, it will give them some more direct airflow.

Nutes:They were repotted a week ago and have received nothing but PH'ed water since. Hopefully once everything else is taken care of this will aid in their recovery.

Coffee: Water and runoff have been PH'ed to ensure they're in the right range. What's weird is that the only time things really picked up was the day after they got watered through the coffee grounds.

Thanks for the input. :tiphat:

raphenilweed · Sep 16, 2010

the outdoor picture looks good. makes me want to point a finger at air flow.Try pointing a fan on the droopy ones. Maybe they aren't strong enough to hold themselves up. You want the leaves fluttering so that they build strong cell walls and refresh the CO2 available at the stomata.

I like the lights at least a foot from the top of the canopy. It looks like you don't have that kind of room though. Tone down your wattage maybe.

Confidential · Sep 16, 2010

raphenilweed said:
the outdoor picture looks good. makes me want to point a finger at air flow.Try pointing a fan on the droopy ones. Maybe they aren't strong enough to hold themselves up. You want the leaves fluttering so that they build strong cell walls and refresh the CO2 available at the stomata.

I like the lights at least a foot from the top of the canopy. It looks like you don't have that kind of room though. Tone down your wattage maybe.

They have pretty beefy stems for their size, actually. The 6000K CFL's did wonders for them in that dept.

I think you and blue have the right idea that airflow is definitely a contributing factor, though.

The exhaust fan is a 180CFM. I believe the hole is 8" in diameter. Intake is definitely undersized, but prior to raising the plants up the temps were in the mid 70's and air was flowing well. (The intake would pull a piece of paper out of your hand from an inch away)

Only reason they're so high now is because the intake feeds into the space below the shelf. The exhaust is above the shelf, so they get air, but lowering the shelf a few inches will solve that. I also might drill a couple 1" or 2" holes in the shelf between runoff trays so circulation is even better.

Will also be adding a circulation fan in both rooms.

Confidential · Sep 18, 2010

Here's a rough drawing of the setup:

The blue boxes are light traps. Air comes in the bottom, goes through the holes, and out the bottom of the light trap on the opposite side of the wall.

The intake holes are vastly undersized for this application, so they are getting opened up along the entire light trap. I hope this helps, but I'm thinking that since the opening for the light trap is so small (approx 18"x 1/2"), it might still be bottlenecking the flow. Either way it will be better than the two inch holes that it's currently dealing with.

You can also see that the current level of the shelves causes the intake air to come in under them. In the mother room air doesn't even hit the plants, and temps get pretty high. In the flower room temps are within the acceptable range, but I doubt it's enough.

I'd really like to add 2 more vents. One for the intake into the mother room, up high above the shelf. And one up high between the mother/flower rooms.

Before I get too far into things, though, I'm leaving the door cracked for a few days just to see if they perk up.

jiggasouza · Sep 18, 2010

i have a very similar problem. they are all drooping down, but are not wilted cuz there sturdy and not flimsy. they get a lot of airflow and the lights are like 3 feet above the plants. the only conclusion i can come across is that there is something in the water that the plants dont like. maybe ph or combo of both. so i just got a r/o system and i didnt get to use it yet but will in the next few days or so. yours seemed to have looked better when u gave them bottle water no? mine are running from collected rain water which could have been treated with some type of chlorine product. but i'm in a worst situation than you. its not just a handful of plants, and they look worst than yours. i'll try get some pics soon. till then good luck.

dachieftan · Sep 18, 2010

First and foremost, almost every pic you have shows that the soil is wet so it makes me think you are overwatering or don't have proper drainage. I usually don't water for @ least 3 days with the party cups but make sure you have proper drainage. Whenever I poor water into the soil, it bubbles because of the huge holes for drainage on the bottom of the cups. I also have greensand and perlite in my soil mix for better drainage. Correct me if I'm wrong, your ph strips indicate that your runoff water is on the lower end of the ph scale? Could be much lower than 6.2? All I know for sure is that it is NOT high ph b/c the leaves would be more twisted. A PH pen has been the best investment for my set-up and if you can afford one I would strongly suggest getting one. I think you should start with your ph. You said you added coffee grounds to your mix but do you realize that coffee is very acidic? Then focus on the details of your room such as light and ventilation. I think mid 80's for temps is too hot IME. if you can get temps down to 78 we can rule out too much heat. To sum it up... Check your water/drainage, Ph, and temps.

DIGITALHIPPY · Sep 19, 2010

way over watered... yuou set them on a death spiral....
i use ffof with all my seeds. works well... just dont watrer too much next time.
probably better to start w/nmew seeds as these plants will take a while to recoup and most likely be boys due to stress...

Confidential · Sep 19, 2010

DIGITALHIPPY said:
way over watered... yuou set them on a death spiral....
i use ffof with all my seeds. works well... just dont watrer too much next time.
probably better to start w/nmew seeds as these plants will take a while to recoup and most likely be boys due to stress...

Do you think that overwatering would account for the plant that I moved back inside? It was fine outside. I brought it in and gave it a normal watering with a little runoff and within a few days it curled up. The new soil it was transplanted into has way more perlite, so it's holding onto less water than it did outside.

What is your method for determining when it's time for water?

I water when the pots are light, and the soil starts to pull away from the pot. The top 3-4 inches are bone dry. Should I wait longer?

I've seen the outdoor plants start to wilt when they need water. They usually perk up within a few hours of getting some. I'm a bit nervous with seedlings, but still wait til pots are light and the top layer is dry. Should I let them go til they wilt? Will they be as forgiving as the full grown ones?

I have some newer seedlings next to these 4. Time to do some drought resistance testing.

Thanks for your help everyone. This is frustrating, but quite educational.

dachieftan · Sep 19, 2010

I stick my finger into that soil and if it is even the slightest bit damp, I don't water. You have to make em work for it so that they branch out their roots in search of water to survive. Don't baby them too much! MJ is a very strong plant. If you don't trust your instinct, then purchase a moisture meter (less than $20). Also, remember that it's also about HOW MUCH water as well as WHEN to water. You should also quit using straight tap water because it has chlorine! I know it is expensive to buy an RO machine or RO bottled water so you could just buy an inexpensive airstone/ pump from an aquarium store and bubble your water for 24 hrs. Not only are you enriching the H20 w/ oxygen but the chlorine will eventually evaporate.

RugerBaby · Sep 19, 2010

over watered!!! The reason thw ones outside look better is because the heat is drying up the soil faster giving them oxygen! Let the babies breathe!!

Confidential · Sep 20, 2010

Watering may have been the initial trigger, but it is not the case anymore. They got water on the 15th, and today the top 2 inches is bone dry. There is still a little moisture below that, so they'll probably get water on the 22nd.

The seedlings in there are a little over 2 weeks old and seem to be doing ok. They are in miracle gro moisture control soil. A couple are looking great, but others are beginning to claw and crinkle/shrivel on the older, larger leaves.

Here's what the sick ones look like up close:

And the two that got moved inside recently. Received water on the 15th as well. Will be watered again on the 22nd. I'm not sure how they could be suffering from overwatering.

Will be triple checking the PH when they all get water on the 22nd.

Thank you all for your input. I hope more people can chime in. I'm not giving up on these yet!

raphenilweed · Sep 22, 2010

I think over watering can be ruled out. Your diagram is nice but it doesn't show dimensions. No worries though, figure out the volume of the box (LxWxH) then compare it to the 180cfm fan. You want negative pressure. Is enough air exhausting in 1 minute?
I still think they need a fan blowing on them so that the leaves can build some "muscle". Get a small oscillating fan or 2 clip fans so that the leaves can flutter in the wind like they would do outdoors. If that doesn't help my next guess would be bad genetics. If you got the seeds from a dime bag you picked up, then it could have received weak genes from a hermaphroditic plant, or stray pollinated from an unknown source. From the looks of the symmetrically lateral nodes I can assume they havent been sexed yet. They could be males. Males use more nitrogen because they grow faster which could explain the yellowing of the leaves. Also males like to stretch up above the females and the closeness of the lights is "sunburning" the leaves down.
The 6 in the front look pretty good compared to the others. Are the good one about the same distance apart as the wilted ones?

jiggasouza · Sep 22, 2010

im telling you, its something to do with ur water or soil. that looks like ph problem. even though your ph is on, there still could be something in your water or soil that is causing this. water with bottle water from now on n tell me that dont help. have you been using bottle water?

Skinny Leaf · Sep 22, 2010

Your ph is off. Buy a ph meter. Having the correct ph is essential to making these things grow indoors. The investment in a good ph meter will make things go alot smoother.

Here is what I would do.
First quit watering so much. You are overwatering. Those in the bigger pots can go as much as 10 days between waterings. Probably more with the lack of growth. Just like the top of the plant the roots are most likely stunted also.
Secondly I would plant more seeds. By the time you get these to recoup you could have started over correctly and be at the same point.
Third move them away from the light. That 100 and 70 are hot.
Last but not least buy a ph meter.

Here is a simple recipe for growing start to finish. Crack seeds. Plant in Fox Farm Light warrior after sprout in container at least 4" deep. Water ph corrected. Grow in cup for 14 days. Transplant after 14 days into 1 gallon container with Fox Farm Ocean Forest. Grow for 14 more days. Watering with ph corrected. Transplant to 3 gallon container with Fox Farm Ocean Forest. Turn light back to 12/12. Water with ph corrected water for next 3 weeks. At 25 days into flower add 1 tablespoon in each cointainer of Fox Farm 5-5-5 multi purpose fertilizer. At day 30 water with a high phosphorus bat guano at 1-2 tablespoons per gallon of water ph corrected. Water like this every other time until 2 weeks before harvest. Two weeks before harvest flush with ph corrected water.

Advanced growers tip 101: Use horticultural molasses for a ph down. I use it every watering to feed the microbes in the soil. From seed to finish.

Confidential · Sep 22, 2010

raphenilweed said:
I think over watering can be ruled out. Your diagram is nice but it doesn't show dimensions. No worries though, figure out the volume of the box (LxWxH) then compare it to the 180cfm fan. You want negative pressure. Is enough air exhausting in 1 minute?
I still think they need a fan blowing on them so that the leaves can build some "muscle". Get a small oscillating fan or 2 clip fans so that the leaves can flutter in the wind like they would do outdoors. If that doesn't help my next guess would be bad genetics. If you got the seeds from a dime bag you picked up, then it could have received weak genes from a hermaphroditic plant, or stray pollinated from an unknown source. From the looks of the symmetrically lateral nodes I can assume they havent been sexed yet. They could be males. Males use more nitrogen because they grow faster which could explain the yellowing of the leaves. Also males like to stretch up above the females and the closeness of the lights is "sunburning" the leaves down.
The 6 in the front look pretty good compared to the others. Are the good one about the same distance apart as the wilted ones?

Hey raphenilweed.

The door to the mother room has been left cracked for 6 days now and nothing has really changed. Either way the existing intake will be opened up, and a second one will be added to each wall near the top of the box to increase airflow. Fans will also be added for circulation.

The 6 in front have all been the same distance from the light as the wilted ones throughout their growth cycle. From the way they are growing, it appears that they are being affected by the same problems, but the onset is much slower and was delayed compared to the older ones. These are in MG moisture control soil and receiving ph'ed tap water. Only time will tell how they do, though.

jiggasouza said:
im telling you, its something to do with ur water or soil. that looks like ph problem. even though your ph is on, there still could be something in your water or soil that is causing this. water with bottle water from now on n tell me that dont help. have you been using bottle water?

Hey jiggasouza.

They have been getting PH'ed bottled water for a couple weeks now. You may be on to something with PH, though. The last picture I posted of the PH strips shows that the soil was pretty acidic b/c of a top dressing of coffee grounds. They are due for water today.

The plan is to PH the water to 7 and see if the soil is still pulling the runoff down. We shall see.

Confidential · Sep 22, 2010

Skinny Leaf said:
Your ph is off. Buy a ph meter. Having the correct ph is essential to making these things grow indoors. The investment in a good ph meter will make things go alot smoother.

Here is what I would do.
First quit watering so much. You are overwatering. Those in the bigger pots can go as much as 10 days between waterings. Probably more with the lack of growth. Just like the top of the plant the roots are most likely stunted also.
Secondly I would plant more seeds. By the time you get these to recoup you could have started over correctly and be at the same point.
Third move them away from the light. That 100 and 70 are hot.
Last but not least buy a ph meter.

Here is a simple recipe for growing start to finish. Crack seeds. Plant in Fox Farm Light warrior after sprout in container at least 4" deep. Water ph corrected. Grow in cup for 14 days. Transplant after 14 days into 1 gallon container with Fox Farm Ocean Forest. Grow for 14 more days. Watering with ph corrected. Transplant to 3 gallon container with Fox Farm Ocean Forest. Turn light back to 12/12. Water with ph corrected water for next 3 weeks. At 25 days into flower add 1 tablespoon in each cointainer of Fox Farm 5-5-5 multi purpose fertilizer. At day 30 water with a high phosphorus bat guano at 1-2 tablespoons per gallon of water ph corrected. Water like this every other time until 2 weeks before harvest. Two weeks before harvest flush with ph corrected water.

Advanced growers tip 101: Use horticultural molasses for a ph down. I use it every watering to feed the microbes in the soil. From seed to finish.

Hi Skinny.

Watering intervals are in the 7-9 day range currently. I also took a drill to all containers on the bottom and sides to allow more oxygen to get to the roots.

More seeds have been planted.

Plants are between 8-10" from the light.

Unfortunately I don't have access to the FFOF or other fox farm products. In the past I've used pro mix/perlite with success, though. I might switch to that and ditch this organic stuff for the time being. Could be a bad batch of that for all I know.

I can't get a PH meter at the moment. For now the PH strips will have to suffice.

I was feeding them unsulphered blackstrap molasses @ 1tbs/gal but stopped a few weeks ago to try and diagnose these sickly plants.

raphenilweed · Sep 22, 2010

Confidential said:
These are in MG moisture control soil and receiving ph'ed tap water. Only time will tell how they do, though.

the miracle grow might be too hot of a mix. again i believe over watering can be ruled out, maybe a splash less during the next watering. From the looks of the size of the pots 1/2 cup of h2o should be plenty. I switched to Black Gold Moisture Holding coco/ power flower mix and have noticed that the moisture holding formula really holds more water than any other soil i have used, so I water just as frequently as before but with less fluid.

If these were my problem plants I would wait till the pots felt light as a feather to water them, add some fans and wait a few days to see what happens. I wouldn't add any fertilizers or transplant them into different soil, they are stressed out enough.
The twisting leaf curl and discoloration looks a bit odd and doesn't look like the 6 in front have the same problem or isn't as pronounced.
I agree with skinny, the bulbs are hot and could be burning the plants. But again the other 6 don't seem as bad. I have about 25 clones in 3.5inch cups >6inches above the tallest plant all under 2 hydrofarm 2 ft T5's and it seems plenty enough light. The last week they have been in a small closet with very stagnant air and the leaves are a bit droopy and 1 looks like its dying.

One last thing, the PH could be right on but its most likely chlorinated. Bottled water has added minerals and "flavoring" which is usually sodium fluoride. My water comes from a spring and is higher in mineral content but is pretty close to PH neutral. The higher mineral content reacts with the copper plumbing which leaves blue/green staining in my sinks and tubs. Most my problems are a result of the water. A Reverse Osmosis machine is on the list.

Still all this fuss over unsexed plants.

Confidential · Sep 22, 2010

raphenilweed said:
the miracle grow might be too hot of a mix. again i believe over watering can be ruled out, maybe a splash less during the next watering. From the looks of the size of the pots 1/2 cup of h2o should be plenty. I switched to Black Gold Moisture Holding coco/ power flower mix and have noticed that the moisture holding formula really holds more water than any other soil i have used, so I water just as frequently as before but with less fluid.

If these were my problem plants I would wait till the pots felt light as a feather to water them, add some fans and wait a few days to see what happens. I wouldn't add any fertilizers or transplant them into different soil, they are stressed out enough.
The twisting leaf curl and discoloration looks a bit odd and doesn't look like the 6 in front have the same problem or isn't as pronounced.
I agree with skinny, the bulbs are hot and could be burning the plants. But again the other 6 don't seem as bad. I have about 25 clones in 3.5inch cups >6inches above the tallest plant all under 2 hydrofarm 2 ft T5's and it seems plenty enough light. The last week they have been in a small closet with very stagnant air and the leaves are a bit droopy and 1 looks like its dying.

One last thing, the PH could be right on but its most likely chlorinated. Bottled water has added minerals and "flavoring" which is usually sodium fluoride. My water comes from a spring and is higher in mineral content but is pretty close to PH neutral. The higher mineral content reacts with the copper plumbing which leaves blue/green staining in my sinks and tubs. Most my problems are a result of the water. A Reverse Osmosis machine is on the list.

Still all this fuss over unsexed plants.

The MG is definitely a hot mix. They are very dark green, but not burning.

I'm taking your approach to watering. Strict 7-9 day windows. Even more if necessary.

The shelf was lowered another 2" away from the lights.

I don't know about the water issue. I see people (even in hydro) using tap water with no problem, but maybe they're just in an area where the additives are better for plants. What I do know is that neither tap nor bottled water makes a bit of difference in this situation.

It's pretty clear that the ones in MG are going the way of the others, though.

Unfortunately they are probably going to be more stressed. The shelf fell just after they were watered and wet soil went everywhere. Plants mostly stayed in their containers, but lost a lot of soil around the roots in the process.

Grrr. Bad luck all around here. :cuss:

So they got PH'ed water today. Pretty much all the older leaves have died off.

Ventilation will be addressed this weekend.

The reason i'm fussing so much over these unsexed plants is because even though they are bagseed, i've spent the better part of the last few years collecting and cataloging all these seeds, the characteristics of their mother, etc. As a result some hold sentimental value, and others were just really dank and needing to be grown out.

vancerz · Sep 25, 2010

get a coco based mix with humus, roots organic is cool easy to deal with and can take a bit of watering with zero problems.

Downward Leaf Curl [Pic Heavy]

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