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Is it possible to stimulate the biosynthesis of terpenes in plants
- Thread starter shaggyballs
- Start date
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That has 3 negative charges and hence won't pass a cell membrane. Also, you'd have to get it targeted into the plastids of the trichomes gland/disc cells...
And more precursor doesn't necessarily make the plant produce more of the desired final product (geranyl pyrophosphate is a rather general precursor, for example also for cholesterol). Again, it's like a car which won't run faster with more fuel in its tank.
To my knowledge (I may be wrong though), precursors applied in vitro (in a cell culture or an enzymatic cell free assay) will result in more product but sadly will neither 'stimulate' the production of terpenoids (i.e. altered enzyme expression) nor will they lead to an increase in terpenoids in a living plant.
Too much precursor might even have a negative feed back effect maybe even causing the prenyl synthesis to shut down...
And I guess the money to get the precursors won't match up with an eventual increase in harvest quality. Better give your plants some real sunlight and a greenhouse
.
Bubbleblower
Member
Yes, if the right genes are present.
You can even have transgenetic Tobacco produce THC.
Certainly
IMO this and managing the VPG are the future of growing.
It's obvious that one needs the genes first...
Question is not if one can produce something but how one can produce more of it. Every organism has a certain level of proteins which may theoretically be in-/decreased in order to get them to work more or less. Alternatively, their activity can sometimes be modulate for example by adding a substrate.
The original question isn't what's theoretically possible but what's feasible in real life and more importantly how to achieve it.
Simple answer to the first question is: You don't - period.
The answer to the second question is: Theoretically maybe, practically no. Stress may increase terpenoid synthesis but usually not in a very specific manner (e.g. treating with JAZ).
Inhibiting the pathway for mono-/diterpenes will increase synthesis of sesqui-/triterpenes and vice versa. Though, is it wise to do so? If you want to feed your plants your heart medication (i.e. 'statins', HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors) in order to inhibit the mevalonate pathway to favour the MEP pathway, then yes. Although certain species also use the latter for sesquiterpenes, plants depend on a functional MVA pathway for example for hormone biosynthesis. Another drawback for us is that both pathways are mandatory for cannabinoid synthesis...
Bubbleblower
Member
But it is still interesting it is possible.
Why shouldn't we do it?
if it is possible in theory surely we can figure out a way to make it work in reality.
Most certainly, this is highly interesting!
It's not about the why (there are a lot of reasons why we should do it) but the how.
Bluntly said, terpene synthases are often very similar enzymes which are induced in bunches (families) and synthesise each a set of different terpenes; playing with gene expression is therefore no solution. We don't know of any useful allosteric modulator nor is it possible to externally apply precursors/substrates (you could apply them but they aren't bioavailable and even if, they're too pricey for any benefit). A very limited number of chemicals are known inhibitors of some of the involved enzymes but usually function only as toxins/herbicides (for example fosmidomycin, FR900098, and GA synthesis inhibitors aka plant growth retardants)...
People are working on it but it's much like developing a new drug/medicine. And that's the point where you start to think in billion $$... Who's going to pay that amount of money just to get a substance likely too toxic to apply it on food crops? MEP inhibitors aren't that much of an issue per se as animals lack this pathway but who wants to smoke drugs with their drugs, so to speak? It's like using phosphonate-based insecticides, triazole fungicides, and CCC or Alar all over again... no thanks!
Genetic engineering would be the way where you don't have to treat your plants with a bunch of chemicals... but again, no thanks!
It's not about the why (there are a lot of reasons why we should do it) but the how.
Bluntly said, terpene synthases are often very similar enzymes which are induced in bunches (families) and synthesise each a set of different terpenes; playing with gene expression is therefore no solution. We don't know of any useful allosteric modulator nor is it possible to externally apply precursors/substrates (you could apply them but they aren't bioavailable and even if, they're too pricey for any benefit). A very limited number of chemicals are known inhibitors of some of the involved enzymes but usually function only as toxins/herbicides (for example fosmidomycin, FR900098, and GA synthesis inhibitors aka plant growth retardants)...
People are working on it but it's much like developing a new drug/medicine. And that's the point where you start to think in billion $$... Who's going to pay that amount of money just to get a substance likely too toxic to apply it on food crops? MEP inhibitors aren't that much of an issue per se as animals lack this pathway but who wants to smoke drugs with their drugs, so to speak? It's like using phosphonate-based insecticides, triazole fungicides, and CCC or Alar all over again... no thanks!
Genetic engineering would be the way where you don't have to treat your plants with a bunch of chemicals... but again, no thanks!
not to be the interventionist hippy out of spite,
but rather to offer a solution perhaps unexplored previously,
instead of torturing the little buggers by putting them through all kinds of crap, why not simply ask them?
they're alive, they can feel you. they know who you are. be patient and go through a few generations respecting your plants ability to be a living, aware being. perhaps in ways you are not encouraged to be accustomed to. let them know what you need.
but rather to offer a solution perhaps unexplored previously,
instead of torturing the little buggers by putting them through all kinds of crap, why not simply ask them?
they're alive, they can feel you. they know who you are. be patient and go through a few generations respecting your plants ability to be a living, aware being. perhaps in ways you are not encouraged to be accustomed to. let them know what you need.
Bubbleblower
Member
That's what I do and they forgive me for all my mistakes.
It's no longer hippy talk, we know plants and humans communicate.
What effect on genetic expression do these amino acids have:
Alanine, Aspartic acid, Arginine, Asparagine
Cysteine
Glycine, Glumatic acid
Hydroxiproline, Histidine
Isoleucine
Lysine, Leucine
Methionine
Proline, Phenylalanine
Serine
Threonine, Tyrosine
Valine
Hi
,That's not one question but maybe 19 and will take a lot of time to answer. It's for most of these also way off topic...
First, apart from hydroxyproline, these are common proteinogenic amino acids and as a general rule (which has it's exceptions) don't do much at low concentrations except serving as building blocks for proteins. They can be used as fertiliser (mostly nitrogen, some also sulphur) without too much influence on plant physiology apart from nutrient-related effects.
One can not say that they directly change gene expression; they aren't signalling molecules but for most parts nutrients and hence play central parts in plant metabolism where they are regulated/sensed/controlled but usually don't regulate/sense/control.
Most amino acids can be interconverted or shuttled in or out of different metabolic pathways such as the Krebs cycle, gluconeogenesis/-lysis, beta-oxidation, Yang cycle, and so on.
Furthermore, they aren't directly involved in terpene synthesis except as an indirect source for carbons.
Certainly, one can play with feeding certain amino acids in order to promote certain physiological reactions or at least guarantee that they won't become the limiting factor.
As an example:
Aspartate (and hence also asparagine) is involved in cellular parasite sensing; low intracellular concentrations as a result of parasites feeding on the cytoplasm lead to a strong defence signal and trigger SAR. Furthermore, they (amongst others) are the metabolic precursors for polyamines (which are involved in transcriptional regulations) and pipecolic acid (a mediator of SAR).
Phenylalanine is the precursor of phenylpropanoids which are involved in lignification and defence mechanisms.
Proline/glutamate (and hence glutamine and arginine) play central roles in stress responses (e.g. proline being the result, not the mediator). Arginine is also involved in polyamine synthesis (see above) and an important nitric oxide donor (NO plays important roles in many cellular processes).
That said, most amino acids won't trigger anything (unless used on seedlings at concentrations at 100-1'000 ppm, which often causes growth arrest) but will be used for a bunch of different more or less important thing. Their regulatory effect is often limited to the plant sensing their concentrations and reacting appropriately (for example by changing genetic expression but mostly by metabolic reactions). Notably, the effects on SAR/ISR induction have an indirect effect on volatile terpenes as a stress/defence reaction but as said, proteinogenic amino acids usually don't trigger such a response but are used as building blocks during these processes.
I guess I should start taking a salary for private lessons LoL.
Bubbleblower
Member
One crazy man can ask more than 1000 wise man can answer
But I got somewhere if the answer to this is yes and yes;
Would hydroxyproline help the production of carboxylic acid, a lot?
Ugh... not sure if I understand what you meanOne crazy man can ask more than 1000 wise man can answer
But I got somewhere if the answer to this is yes and yes;
Would hydroxyproline help the production of carboxylic acid, a lot?
.Hydroxyproline, if not used in free form as osmoprotectant, is usually degraded/metabolised for example to sugar.
It is an important part of cell wall proteins but it's actually proline which is incorporated into the proteins and hydroxylated later (aka posttranslational modification). Does that help you? Guess not...
You'd be better off using proline or glutamate instead; these are interchangeable and can be incorporated into proteins but also function as building blocks for a lot more stuff than just being converted to sugar like in the case of Hyp.
What do you define as carboxylic acid exactly or can you explain what you want to do with it? I know what carboxylic acid means and that's precisely why I ask you what you think it is
.If you mean things like citric acid, then give your plants (or are you talking about human nutrition?) a better and faster available precursor for the Kalvin cycle. Though, that one is tightly regulated and modifying it's 'turnover' is usually only possible in diet pill advertisements.
I think organic does this compared to chemical feeding, as well as companion plants can have an influence I believe. Lots of organic molecules created by the microherd as well as interactions cause more terpenes to be created. A lot of the more expensive chemical feeds include a bunch of enzymes to mimic this process, I suppose.
Other than these natural growing methods I don't think there's another way to get a product that is still natural or safe to smoke.
Nature's given us so much to work with yet some people always want to go the monsanto route and think they can invent warm water or at least get a shortcut towards it by manipulating nature with chems... I'm a strict nonbeliever of this practice. Only things chems have done in nature is create the need for more chems to fix the damage done, in an endless loop.
Other than these natural growing methods I don't think there's another way to get a product that is still natural or safe to smoke.
Nature's given us so much to work with yet some people always want to go the monsanto route and think they can invent warm water or at least get a shortcut towards it by manipulating nature with chems... I'm a strict nonbeliever of this practice. Only things chems have done in nature is create the need for more chems to fix the damage done, in an endless loop.
methyl-jasmonate or jasmonic acid are excellent. gibberelic acid is also but will cause foxtailing (undesirable condition you can google it). also, jasmonic acid is approved for use on crops in more states but not all. giberellic acid i think is exclusively for ornamental crops though you can find many "hydro store" products containing it. Jasmonic acid you will have to probably source from elsewhere if you live in any of the major medical states.
i could not find link earlier https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=200972
SpaceJunkOG
Member
there are some products that are *trying* to do this..... the purpose as-marketed by some of these nutrient companies who sell "flavored" carb products.... is precisely to change the terpene profile of plants.
the "grape, citrus, banana" etc etc sweeteners are supposed to bring out terpenes that express those flavors / scents. and they can, but generally not very efficiently or profoundly, you get the best results when it's done very deliberately with a certain flavor on a certain strain that already has those attributes. And still it's not a huge difference.
Regardless, I recently got very curious about how they do this, as I wanted to try and use the science in my own way, or at least figure out what part of the product caused the flavoring. The answer?
I don't think any of these "flavored sweeteners" are the answer, and I don't think any nutrient company is ever going to come out with a magic "make your weed smell like fresh oranges" nutrient. It's just not gonna happen (i think). But if it is *theoretically possible* then I, too, would like to mess around with turning that theory into reality, just for the sake of fun and experimentation.
So to the OP - yes, I think it's possible to bring out specific terpenes or sets of terpenes by feeding the plant *something* to stimulate the biosynthesis of those terpenes.... and beyond that I have no clue. @Only_Ornamental responded to a similar thread of mine and posted a link to this chart, I found it highly interesting....
https://jameskennedymonash.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/table-of-esters-and-their-smells.jpg
I naturally went down the chart and decided to research "methyl butanoate" as it looked like it was the ester responsible for pineapple smell (or maybe technically it is the scientific name given to that particular ester). Wikipedia says, .. . . . .
"Methyl butyrate, also known under the systematic name methyl butanoate, is the methyl ester of butyric acid. Like most esters, it has a fruity odor, in this case resembling apples or pineapples."
And when you read the descriptions on these flavored sweetener products, they claim to be using "esters" and "flavonoids" to achieve these results. So I get excited, because I think I just found the ester that creates the specific Pineapple smell, right? I'm like, "I gotta go buy some methyl butyrate off amazon and feed it to my plants." (Don't worry, that was just a fleeting thought in my foggy brain).
The problem is 1) I have no background in biochemistry, and 2) Even with no background in biochemistry I feel like I know enough to say; you can't just feed a plant a "flavor" and expect it to uptake that flavor. You have to feed it certain things which would interact with other things causing a reaction to occur which might create an enzyme or something which would THEN possibly tell the plant to produce more of a certain ester or flavonoid (i.e. the title of the thread: "...stimulating the biosynthesis of terpenes"). But hey, see #1, i have no background in science or biochem, and more likely than not I have no fucking clue what I'm talking about. All I learned is that you do have to stimulate their biosynthesis through indirect means, you can't just "feed them flavors." (People have been trying this shit for decades).
I may have not contributed any knowledge to this thread (instead just displayed my lack thereof) but I have been on the same quest as OP for a while now and am starting to accept that it is far too scientific a quest for me to tackle without the proper education (and you can't just self-educate yourself on the net when it comes to stuff like this).
Good luck~! I think I'm going to give up on this one for now play with my ACT recipes to increase terpene production. definitely works better than "Pineapple Rush" !
the "grape, citrus, banana" etc etc sweeteners are supposed to bring out terpenes that express those flavors / scents. and they can, but generally not very efficiently or profoundly, you get the best results when it's done very deliberately with a certain flavor on a certain strain that already has those attributes. And still it's not a huge difference.
Regardless, I recently got very curious about how they do this, as I wanted to try and use the science in my own way, or at least figure out what part of the product caused the flavoring. The answer?
I don't think any of these "flavored sweeteners" are the answer, and I don't think any nutrient company is ever going to come out with a magic "make your weed smell like fresh oranges" nutrient. It's just not gonna happen (i think). But if it is *theoretically possible* then I, too, would like to mess around with turning that theory into reality, just for the sake of fun and experimentation.
So to the OP - yes, I think it's possible to bring out specific terpenes or sets of terpenes by feeding the plant *something* to stimulate the biosynthesis of those terpenes.... and beyond that I have no clue. @Only_Ornamental responded to a similar thread of mine and posted a link to this chart, I found it highly interesting....
https://jameskennedymonash.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/table-of-esters-and-their-smells.jpg
I naturally went down the chart and decided to research "methyl butanoate" as it looked like it was the ester responsible for pineapple smell (or maybe technically it is the scientific name given to that particular ester). Wikipedia says, .. . . . .
"Methyl butyrate, also known under the systematic name methyl butanoate, is the methyl ester of butyric acid. Like most esters, it has a fruity odor, in this case resembling apples or pineapples."
And when you read the descriptions on these flavored sweetener products, they claim to be using "esters" and "flavonoids" to achieve these results. So I get excited, because I think I just found the ester that creates the specific Pineapple smell, right? I'm like, "I gotta go buy some methyl butyrate off amazon and feed it to my plants." (Don't worry, that was just a fleeting thought in my foggy brain).
The problem is 1) I have no background in biochemistry, and 2) Even with no background in biochemistry I feel like I know enough to say; you can't just feed a plant a "flavor" and expect it to uptake that flavor. You have to feed it certain things which would interact with other things causing a reaction to occur which might create an enzyme or something which would THEN possibly tell the plant to produce more of a certain ester or flavonoid (i.e. the title of the thread: "...stimulating the biosynthesis of terpenes"). But hey, see #1, i have no background in science or biochem, and more likely than not I have no fucking clue what I'm talking about. All I learned is that you do have to stimulate their biosynthesis through indirect means, you can't just "feed them flavors." (People have been trying this shit for decades).
I may have not contributed any knowledge to this thread (instead just displayed my lack thereof) but I have been on the same quest as OP for a while now and am starting to accept that it is far too scientific a quest for me to tackle without the proper education (and you can't just self-educate yourself on the net when it comes to stuff like this).
Good luck~! I think I'm going to give up on this one for now play with my ACT recipes to increase terpene production.
definitely works better than "Pineapple Rush" !
5 years and no reply.
