Development and Harvest Yields of Greenhouse Tomatoes in Six Orgnaic Growing Systems

Dave Coulier said:

Secondtry, did you ever post on cannabis-world? Theres a thread there thats about soil substrates, properties, etc, etc, that makes me think it may have been done by you.

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Yea that's me, I used to be gojo there. The admin and a few site 'bullies' didn't like my use of science. I was a member for over 4 years, I was one of the first, and yet the admin still acted less than cool.

That thread was when I first started trying to grasp all these topics, and as you probably noticed, I was lacking a lot of knowledge at that point. That was my original mix I used to grow tomatoes, peppers, cannabis (not to flower), etc last summer, great results. But this new mix should be a good deal better. In fact, I am using Fafard "organic soil conditioner" as the base for my soilless media I am mixing up next week, or the following week. Then I will send it to get tested with the NCSU porometer and other assays.

HTH

RE: surfactants:

I don't like yucca for the fact it's ability to be a surfactant comes from saponin, which can be anti-microbial. I have used polysorbate 80 (aka Tween80) in the past and had great results. I will use polysorbate 80 as a surfactant, not yucca.

RE: high quilty, high humus compost: (CMC quality)

From MidWest Biosystems. They have bags of compost that are 30lbs for about $30 and the moisture content is about 40%, so there is good amount of compost in a bag, a few cubic feet or so (the compost is about 1,400 lbs/yrd^3 bulk density). This compost is bagged and has holes so the microbes can breath, however, the 30lb bagged compost in their current stock is older (from last summer I think) and the microbial counts could be low/er. For me that is fine as I am using it more for bulk density, humus, CEC and OM than for microbes; I have another source of microbe active compost passing SFI benchmarks. A salesmen is sending me tech sheets on the compost assays soon.

The humus score that Midwest biosystems uses is based off of the Luebke Humus Score, but the Midweat biosystem score is based off of a 200 point scale, not 100 as is the case with Luebke Humus score. I don't know what the differences are between the two tests but the Midwest claims compost needs to have a score over 120 or they will not sell it as "humus compost". According to PikeAgi Labs the Luebke's say compost should be over 80 on their scale to be humus compost. Good info on their methods and compost

http://www.midwestbiosystems.com/acs-value.html


RE: worm castings:

The Ph.D I am in contact with suggested a brand over the phone but I could not locate them, I asked for contact info from him. He claims a lot of worm castings are too high EC and if applied over 2-5% (vol/vol) can hinder young roots. He specifically suggested one brand as low EC but high quality compost.

HTH

FYI Just a note that I find the science information over at CW mostly of the cut and paste variety with no real logic (gojo excepted). I've encountered people there calling themselves mycologists, who are not even close.

secondtry said:

Hey Dave,



NP. I will post URLs to the Penn State site unless you have already found it?


Yea I called them about it too, weirdos.

Anyway, here is a great source of natural zeolite ("clinoptilolite"), I have not used them before but I spend a while chatting with one of their tech guys and I am buying from them. They have many different sizes to choose from, but I am kind of torn between the "ultrafine mesh" with a median size of 6 microns and a mean size of 9.8 microns, and the "60 cycle" which is a median size of 15 microns and a mean size of 23 microns. I think the 60 cycle might be the better choice and in bulk it's cheaper...but I'm not sure. Regardless, I am buying 5 or 10 gallons of the '60 cycle' that is about 40 pounds per 5 gallons and few cubic feet (the size of a 5 gallon bucket).

http://www.bearriverzeolite.com/sales.htm


Cool, let me know. I have been speaking with a Ph.D. (I don't want to write his name in public) about these matter and specific mixes, etc, this Ph.D. is a graduate of NCSU Floraculture Dept and is trained in the use of the NCSU porometer. I am awaiting a large bit of data from him on many questions I wrote him about some specific data on specific medias. I will PM you the text of my email to him so you can see what he and I are discussing, or more accurately, what he is telling me and helping me with.

I asked him which method to measure pH he thinks is better and why: NCSU PourThru or the method/s suggested by Cornell U.

I talked to some people at Fafard and have some good info to post in my next post. Gotta go now.

Click to expand...

Im reworking my way through this thread and checking out all the links you've supplied, so I haven't gotten around to any of the newest stuff you mentioned. Ill take the Penn State links though.

Thanks for the zeolite link, but those prices are too high for me. I think Ill try out the Zeopro. It only costs $1.60/lb not including shipping.

Paul Nelson hasn't written me back yet. I think Ill give him a call next tuesday if he hasn't written back by then.

Im looking forward to the info from Fafard you have. I still haven't received a reply from their labs regarding soil testing, and soil properties of their Nursery Mix. Doesn't look like they will. Oh well.

Ive got a question. What do you do with the pieces of pine bark thats too big? I was thinking of putting them in a blender for a quick spin to chop em up into smaller sizes and re-screening them.

Care to let me know the name of the EWC? I like digging around google searching for stuff. I found a good paper about how apical dominace & levels of auxins affect flowering if you are interested. You probably are, if you're like me. I like to know exactly how everything interacts with our beloved plant, with the hopes of improving harvest of course.

Microbeman said:

FYI Just a note that I find the science information over at CW mostly of the cut and paste variety with no real logic (gojo excepted). I've encountered people there calling themselves mycologists, who are not even close.

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Haha, so true!: "science...of the cut and paste variety". If someone can't explain the science in their own words then they don't understand the science...

I too have seen people call themselves mycologists, and I think that term is misused by some people, but what does a mycologist make? It seems if someone grows mushrooms they are a mycologist, or maybe they just practice mycology(?), like someone who grows plants is a horticulturist. I think the word "mycologist" doesn't necessarily equal fungi scientist but I am not sure what the actual definition of mycologist is.

All the best, from one ex-CWer to another

Hey dave,

Dave Coulier said:

Im reworking my way through this thread and checking out all the links you've supplied, so I haven't gotten around to any of the newest stuff you mentioned. Ill take the Penn State links though.

Click to expand...

Penn State Department of Plant Pathology: Mushroom Science and Technology
http://mushroomspawn.cas.psu.edu/mushroom.shtml

Thanks for the zeolite link, but those prices are too high for me. I think Ill try out the Zeopro. It only costs $1.60/lb not including shipping.

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Yea that source I offered from BearRiver is about $2.5 per pound. But the quality is great and if you re-use your media it's cost effective over a grow or two. And considering you would only add 4-6% by volume (I miswrote by weight) that means for a 5 gallon bag of media you would only use 0.2-0.3 gallon of zeolite. My next grow will be nine 5 gallon containers which means I need about 1.8-2.7 gallons of zeolite which from BearRiver is only about $40 (on the lower application rate).

I have tried to find the source of zeolite from Vermont but I've come up empty so far. I will try again on Monday.

Here are two other sources of natural "clinoptilolite" zeolite and "laumontite" which is another natural zeolite. I am not sure of pricing, or if they sell retail but I placed a call already. According to BearRiver there are only 3-4 sellers of natural zeolite in the whole US, and of those only 2 (bearriver and the company I once ordered from) sell to public as retail, not only wholesale.

I don't know the pricing of these zeolites:

St. Cloud Zeolite (clinoptilolite)
http://www.stcloudmining.com/what-is-zeolite.html


Zeo-Tec (laumontite)
http://www.magicmineral.com/q_n_a.htm


Another possible (and less ideal) option could be "Green Gaia" rock dust, I have tried to find the CEC of that rock powder but I have come up empty. I have called many retailers and even the manufacturer and no one seems to know the CEC of Green Gaia, even tho Green Gaia is sold as a means to increase media CEC...


What type of zeolite is Zeo-Pro? What else is in it?

Im looking forward to the info from Fafard you have. I still haven't received a reply from their labs regarding soil testing, and soil properties of their Nursery Mix. Doesn't look like they will. Oh well.

Click to expand...

I got ya covered, I got lots of data and info last week, check out FOF 30 and FOF 70. The FOF 70 is orgnic versoin of the Nursery mix you wrote about. I also have info on media testing by Fafard whom I now trust to carry out all testing without prejudice. I'll post the info in the next post.

Ive got a question. What do you do with the pieces of pine bark thats too big? I was thinking of putting them in a blender for a quick spin to chop em up into smaller sizes and re-screening them.

Click to expand...

That could work, but take forever and destroy your blender. I have used medium heavy duty leaf/branch shredder (from Patriot) to reduce particle size, I ran them thru the shredder a few times.

I add large piece of bark I can't use in media to my compost piles and simply use them as mulch. However, the "organic soil conditioner" by Fafard is their aged pine bark** and it's already screened from over 5/8" (~15 mm) and 3/8" (9 mm) screens so there should be "fines" in the mix, I am waiting on clarification tho. Hopefully that means screening from about 3.5 mm (the screen you found) or 3.3 mm (the screen I found) to 2mm is not too much effort or too much loss of volume. I believe gypsum is mixed with the organic soil conditioner. Howver, I think the amount of fines from the Fafard APBF could be less than from the Scotchmans brand.

Al at gradenweb suggests 1/8" (3 mm ) to 1/4" (6 mm) particle size which IMO is too wide of a range according to all the studies I have read, around 2 mm to 3 mm is ideal, thus screening from 3.5 mm to 2 mm would be best and better for cannabis than the sizes Al suggests (in regards to moisture retention you wrote about).

Other aged pine bark fine source I have tried is from Lowes and Southern Ag. is Scotchmans, that is screened under an inch (larger than the product from Fafard). Some areas of the US lows sells these brands:

• Landscapers Pride
• Leafgro

** Fafard gets pine bark as fresh bark and ages for 12 months, I was told step-by-step their aging process by one of their scientists and and it's a very sound process. However, I think there maybe less fines in the Fafard product than other brands of aged pine bark. I am waiting for clarification from Fafard.

Care to let me know the name of the EWC?

Click to expand...

Sure once I know the name, I think it's "VGY NY", or "VGYNY", or "VGY-NY", or none of the above. I asked him (the Ph.D.) to clarify the name and contact info.

I am calling Yelm on Monday to find out the CEC of their vermicast.

I like digging around google searching for stuff. I found a good paper about how apical dominace & levels of auxins affect flowering if you are interested. You probably are, if you're like me. I like to know exactly how everything interacts with our beloved plant, with the hopes of improving harvest of course.

Click to expand...

Yea for sure I would like to read that. I too have studied PGRs and apical dominance and topping, very interesting effects.

HTH

@ all,

I got a PM from someone asking if oat hulls can be used in place of rice hulls, and it should be fine, but I want to look into the properties of oat hulls first. The issue is finding rice hulls is very difficult to impossible in lots of locations. I will be making pyrolyzed oat hulls this week if it's a good option, I will do a pictorial thread of the making and use of a "retort stove" (simple and very cheap).

@ DC,

I can't PM you because you don't have 50 posts yet, do you have anon-email?

Info about Fafard Products:

This info is from a conversation with a scientist from Fafard (name withheld to protect my anonymity), the info (except tortuosity) is from his memory so some figures could be slightly off, but for the most part it is accurate. I have emailed him as he requested so he can take time to send me technical info on Fafard products and testing with their porometer and answers to my (many) other questions...hehe.


Find a Fafard retailer:
http://www.fafard.com/index.php?p=7


Fafard Organic Formulas (FOFs):
http://www.fafard.com/index.php?p=124

I don't like the use of gysum in their mixes, too much sulfur, that is why I use calcidic lime and azomite, not gyspum. These FOF mixes meet National Organic Program (NOP) guidelines.


FOF 30:
http://www.fafard.com/index.php?p=158

This mix is a good choice and has pretty ideal properties but it has less than ideal amendments like perlite. Once we add OM to FOF 70 (like compost and vermicast) the properties of FOF 70 will be similar to FOF 30. Has initial fertilizer application of slow-release chicken litter/droppings.

Contents:

• Canadian sphagnum peat moss
• Aged pine bark
• Perlite
• Vermiculite
• Dolomitic limestone
• Gypsum
• Perdue® organic fertilizer
• NPK of media is 2-3-2 (IIRC)
• pH range = 5.5-6.5

Properties:

• TP = 81-90%
• CC = 65-70%
• AP = 16-20%
• BD = 0.24-0.29 g/cm^3 (that's high)
• Pore Tortuosity = med-high if the bark size is from 9 mm to 15 mm (lower is better)
• with wetting agent

FOF 70:
http://www.fafard.com/index.php?p=161

The organic version of the Fafard Nursery Mix, I assume the Nursery Mix has very similar properties the FOF 70 because the mixes use the same amendments and ratios AFAIK.

Contents:

• Aged pine bark
• Canadian sphagnum peat moss
• Dolomitic limestone
• Gypsum
• Perdue® organic fertilizer
• NPK of media is 2-3-2 (IIRC)
• pH range = 5.5-6.5

Properties:

• TP = 82-94%
• CC = 60-68%
• AP = 22-26%
• BD = 0.32-0.35 g/cm^3 (that's high)
• Pore Tortuosity = med-high if the bark size is from 9 mm to 15 mm (lower is better)
• without wetting agent (I suggest polysorbate 80)

NOTE: FOF 70 is only available at a 6 pallet purchase, but FOF 30 is sold at most retailers.

HTH, once I get more info like available water, buffer water and unavailable water at CC, evapotranspiration, CEC, etc I will post again.

My mix should have similar properties to half-way between FOF 70 and FOF 30.

I too have seen people call themselves mycologists, and I think that term is misused by some people, but what does a mycologist make?

Click to expand...

Bryce Kendrick, Paul Stamets? People able to identify fungal hyphae, spores (conidia); a biologist who learns to identify molds and fruiting bodies?

@ all:

Due to the properties of FOF 30 and my conversation with a scientist from Fafard I would definitely suggest FOF 30 over Pro-Mix, Sunshine Mix, LC-mix, and anything based upon coir, along with other retail peat based mixes...but not my mix, hopefully

Hey MM,

Microbeman said:

Bryce Kendrick, Paul Stamets? People able to identify fungal hyphae, spores (conidia); a biologist who learns to identify molds and fruiting bodies?

Click to expand...

Yea that is pretty much my thought too. I would however consider many non-scientists (regular joe-schmos) who grow mushrooms (ex. P.cubensis, P.mexicana, etc) to be mycologists because they do much agar work, strain isolation (of very young mycelium), breeding, etc. Hmmm, I don't know, both definitions make sense to me as a single definition for mycologist of varying degrees.

All the best

@ Mods:

Thanks for the sticky, my first.

No problem man. I thought it would be a great advanced stickie..........our first seriously advanced stickie. LOL

Congrats.

Von

secondtry said:

Hey dave,



Penn State Department of Plant Pathology: Mushroom Science and Technology
http://mushroomspawn.cas.psu.edu/mushroom.shtml



Yea that source I offered from BearRiver is about $2.5 per pound. But the quality is great and if you re-use your media it's cost effective over a grow or two. And considering you would only add 4-6% by volume (I miswrote by weight) that means for a 5 gallon bag of media you would only use 0.2-0.3 gallon of zeolite. My next grow will be nine 5 gallon containers which means I need about 1.8-2.7 gallons of zeolite which from BearRiver is only about $40 (on the lower application rate).

I have tried to find the source of zeolite from Vermont but I've come up empty so far. I will try again on Monday.

Here are two other sources of natural "clinoptilolite" zeolite and "laumontite" which is another natural zeolite. I am not sure of pricing, or if they sell retail but I placed a call already. According to BearRiver there are only 3-4 sellers of natural zeolite in the whole US, and of those only 2 (bearriver and the company I once ordered from) sell to public as retail, not only wholesale.

I don't know the pricing of these zeolites:

St. Cloud Zeolite (clinoptilolite)
http://www.stcloudmining.com/what-is-zeolite.html


Zeo-Tec (laumontite)
http://www.magicmineral.com/q_n_a.htm


Another possible (and less ideal) option could be "Green Gaia" rock dust, I have tried to find the CEC of that rock powder but I have come up empty. I have called many retailers and even the manufacturer and no one seems to know the CEC of Green Gaia, even tho Green Gaia is sold as a means to increase media CEC...


What type of zeolite is Zeo-Pro? What else is in it?




I got ya covered, I got lots of data and info last week, check out FOF 30 and FOF 70. The FOF 70 is orgnic versoin of the Nursery mix you wrote about. I also have info on media testing by Fafard whom I now trust to carry out all testing without prejudice. I'll post the info in the next post.


That could work, but take forever and destroy your blender. I have used medium heavy duty leaf/branch shredder (from Patriot) to reduce particle size, I ran them thru the shredder a few times.

I add large piece of bark I can't use in media to my compost piles and simply use them as mulch. However, the "organic soil conditioner" by Fafard is their aged pine bark** and it's already screened from over 5/8" (~15 mm) and 3/8" (9 mm) screens so there should be "fines" in the mix, I am waiting on clarification tho. Hopefully that means screening from about 3.5 mm (the screen you found) or 3.3 mm (the screen I found) to 2mm is not too much effort or too much loss of volume. I believe gypsum is mixed with the organic soil conditioner. Howver, I think the amount of fines from the Fafard APBF could be less than from the Scotchmans brand.

Al at gradenweb suggests 1/8" (3 mm ) to 1/4" (6 mm) particle size which IMO is too wide of a range according to all the studies I have read, around 2 mm to 3 mm is ideal, thus screening from 3.5 mm to 2 mm would be best and better for cannabis than the sizes Al suggests (in regards to moisture retention you wrote about).

Other aged pine bark fine source I have tried is from Lowes and Southern Ag. is Scotchmans, that is screened under an inch (larger than the product from Fafard). Some areas of the US lows sells these brands:

• Landscapers Pride
• Leafgro

** Fafard gets pine bark as fresh bark and ages for 12 months, I was told step-by-step their aging process by one of their scientists and and it's a very sound process. However, I think there maybe less fines in the Fafard product than other brands of aged pine bark. I am waiting for clarification from Fafard.


Sure once I know the name, I think it's "VGY NY", or "VGYNY", or "VGY-NY", or none of the above. I asked him (the Ph.D.) to clarify the name and contact info.

I am calling Yelm on Monday to find out the CEC of their vermicast.


Yea for sure I would like to read that. I too have studied PGRs and apical dominance and topping, very interesting effects.

HTH

Click to expand...

Funny you mention St. Cloud because Zeopro uses their Zeolite . It also has in it a synthetic version of Apatite apparently developed by NASA, but at only 10%, so Id end up with .5% if I use 5% Zeopro in my soil mix.

In your Fafard Soil conditioner did you get any wood? Because thats what appears to make up some of my Nursery Mix. It really stands out against the peat moss and the rest of the aged bark. The 'wood' fragments dont appear aged whatsoever, and I was under the impression there isn't supposed to be any wood in aged pine bark products. Maybe Im wrong.

Heres the article regarding apical dominance and flowering.

http://algorithmicbotany.org/FSPM07/Individual/10.pdf

I was curious about why the bottom of my plants dont flower nearly as well as the tops considering the bottom should have lower levels of Pr when lights go out as opposed to the tops which are heavy Pfr. It seemed ass backwards to me considering all the far red light the middle/bottom of the plant gets. That article really helped explain why the top flowers first regardless of the levels of Pfr/Pr.

+1 on Pro-Mix sucking balls. It was what I first used as a newbie. I read 60% Promix/25% Perlite/15%Vermiculite was a great mix for a newbie. Impossible to over-water I read. Lies, Lies, and more lies. I over watered multiple times on my first two grows, and it wasn't like I was drenching them either. Im so glad to have found APBF.

With regards to the AP of the FOF70 being 22-26%, id say thats spot on. I used a Mcdonalds sweet tea cup to test the Nursery Mix last night, and it came out at 25%. I have no pots that I can use for the tests . They have too many holes. Any ideas?

Oh yeah, your rice hulls. Thats the same as parboiled rice hulls? If so, Griffins has them:

http://griffins.com/pdf/catalog/2010/by_pages/145-160.pdf

hey Dave,

Can you please post link for zeopro again? What do you know about apatite? (I am unfamiliar with it).

The Fafard soil conditioner should be only aged pine bark, it's screened 3 different times over the course of a year through progressively smaller screen mesh (1.5" > 5/8" > 3/8") and I think it is a mix of the bark from the 5/8" and 3/8" screen. I will mention what you wrote to the Fafard scientist I am talking to.



Thanks for the info on Pr. Check out these pages, you will like, there is good info about Pfr/Pr and brassinosteriod:

-"Light and Hormonal Control of Plant Growth and Development"
http://www.hhmi.org/research/investigators/chory.html

I just ordered more brassinolide (LINK) a natural brassinosteriod which I will foliar spray (along with triacontanol (LINK)). I have used brassinolid to grow mushrooms for a long time, but never for cannabis, until I read the work of Joanne Chory, et al., (circa 2005) showing the effects of brassinolide on leaf. Brassinolide has potential to increase yield a good deal and it overall increases growth (height), enhances phototracking and offers other photosystem benefits. Brassinolide is most effective under high irridiance lighting (ie., HID).

A few more of the same series:

-"Steroids Could Add Bulk to Crop Harvests"
http://www.hhmi.org/news/chory6.html

-"Stitching Together a Receptor Reveals Plant Hormone Action"
http://www.hhmi.org/news/chory2.html

-"Researchers Learn What Sparks Plant Growth" (this article is the base of all others)
http://www.hhmi.org/news/chory20070308.html

+1 on Pro-Mix sucking balls.

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I would not characterize it as "sucking balls", but it is less than ideal. I have had large and very heavy harvests with it, but it is less than ideal. Altogether IMO Pro-mix is better than coir based mixes and especially better than 100% coir.

I think FOF 30 mix will outperform all current retail mixes. I am going to grow with it to see how it preforms. I think many ICers won't make their own soilless media, but I think they could be persuaded to use FOF 30, not Pro-mix, Sunshine mix, LC-mix, coir, etc.

It was what I first used as a newbie. I read 60% Promix/25% Perlite/15%Vermiculite was a great mix for a newbie. Impossible to over-water I read. Lies, Lies, and more lies. I over watered multiple times on my first two grows, and it wasn't like I was drenching them either. Im so glad to have found APBF.

Click to expand...

Yea I had similar problem when I started. It's funny that peat based mixes were put into major use many decades ago because they hold more water then bark based mixes and yet cannabis gurus like Rosenthall (sp?), Cervantes, etc claim otherwise.

With regards to the AP of the FOF70 being 22-26%, id say thats spot on. I used a Mcdonalds sweet tea cup to test the Nursery Mix last night, and it came out at 25%. I have no pots that I can use for the tests . They have too many holes. Any ideas?

Click to expand...

Cool thanks for the info. Plug holes? Yea, put a thick trash bag into the container then add media. If you need to drain from container just poke holes in the trash bag through the holes in the container.

Oh yeah, your rice hulls. Thats the same as parboiled rice hulls? If so, Griffins has them:

http://griffins.com/pdf/catalog/2010...es/145-160.pdf

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Nice, yea I think it is. I will call them on Monday, thanks man!

P.S. I asked the Ph.D. to critique my mix, lets hope he does and points out any flaws he sees.

Dave Coulier said:

Heres the article regarding apical dominance and flowering.

http://algorithmicbotany.org/FSPM07/Individual/10.pdf

Click to expand...

Great find!

Auxin produced in the apex is transported basipetally through these metamers, and is drained from the basal metamer by the root. Furthermore, the auxin is subject to decay in each metamer. Transition to flowering takes place after a user-defined number of metamers have been produced, and decreases the production of auxin.

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This reads like a sound reason not to deliberately cause wounds during the transitional period.